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STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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Boris Galerkin posted:

Is GotG cannon? I honestly thought it was like a side-story and not really integrated with the rest of Marvel but I guess I'm wrong about that.

GotG is arguably one of the most important films to the overall MCU Infinity Stone/Thanos story since the first GotG movie is the one that introduced the story behind the Stones and actually featured Thanos himself. They're going to connect with the rest of the universe for Infinity War.

All the films, Netflix, ABC, and Runaways are all part of the MCU shared universe but each kind of has its own lane unlikely to crossover in any meaningful way considering the logistical and creative nightmare of that.

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STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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Yeah, I don't really get why people are dreaming up scenarios where the Earth stays blown up or it ties into Infinity War when the obvious tv resolution is that they save the day like they were sent there to do and time gets rewritten in a way the MCU never has to care about.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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Yeah, I binged S1 and the worst I could say about it was that it was kind of a generic, by the numbers procedural. And yeah, as said a lot of that "generic" stuff turns out to be subtle foreshadowing and red herrings that actually really impress after the Winter Soldier twist.

The rub is that I was kind of committed to watching the show because I was into the overall MCU thing. If it had been a stand alone show I definitely could have seen myself dropping it early on as something that just didn't do anything to stand out from the pack. But for better or worse they always did have that MCU hook to give them an edge over the competition.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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howe_sam posted:

With very little to back myself up on this beyond gut feeling, I really do think this was what ABC wanted from the show. It was supposed to be their answer to NCIS, and it just was not that.

Yeah, that wouldn't surprise me and it was basically my impression when I was watching those episodes. And that's not totally my thing so I could definitely see how I might have quit the show if I hadn't had the MCU hook and Winter Soldier foreknowledge to keep me engaged.

Mraagvpeine posted:

Are you still committed to watching all MCU related media? Like Runaways?

Eh, yes and no? I HAVE watched all the MCU stuff besides Runaways and really was just waiting for that to finish so I could binge it and its on my short list. But like I watch the MCU stuff because I enjoy it. That's different from when SHIELD started and the universe was smaller and I just felt like it was all part of the same thing so I should give it all a chance. Now there's so much of it and its so far removed from each other that there's not really a "commitment" for the most part.

I mean its weird. If I didn't like Iron Fist do I feel "committed" to watching it to follow Defenders and that continuity? Yeah. If I didn't like Guardians Vol 2 would I still feel "committed" to watch it to follow Infinity War and the main MCU? Probably. But like at this stage its clear you can treat the Netflix, movies, and individual shows as largely separate things and just watch what you enjoy.

So if it turns out Runaways sucks and I want to stop watching it I will because I doubt it means poo poo to the rest of the MCU. But I am a fan of the MCU so I'd probably give Runaways a chance even if I wasn't a fan of the comic.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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Inhumans was a dud. Iron Fist was iffy and Defenders had a deflating third act. I never fully got into Agent Carter, but it was fun. Movie wise Incredible Hulk, Thor 2, and Iron Man 3 were probably the closest to ones I didn't like.

But yeah, for the most part I've just enjoyed most of the MCU but as it keeps getting bigger and bigger it stands to reason that there's going to be more stuff that flops or just isn't for me.

To me its less an obligation or a commitment as it is that like I'm not really a Fantasy or Sci Fi fan so if Thor or Guardians of the Galaxy weren't part of the MCU its hit or miss on whether I would have seen them. Maybe I would have but they might just have gotten lost in the excess of options out there. But the MCU hook just gives an extra motivator to bump it up my watch list.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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I think we're at the stage where everything is officially in the same shared universe but everyone is staying in their own lane so they're like 99% stand alone.

Well, "everything" done directly by Marvel but now with the Fox sale and the weird Spider-Man deal with Sony we might be headed towards EVERYTHING eventually.

I remember reading there's some continuity conflict with Nico's mom being a background character in Strange, but I assume that can just be chalked up to "we weren't thinking that far ahead, forget it, there's two people with the same name." But I haven't started Runaways yet so I don't know. Maybe I'll start that tonight.

STAC Goat fucked around with this message at Jan 11, 2018 around 02:19

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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Gorilla Salad posted:

Iron Fist was trash.

I have a more positive take on it than most. Like, I agree with most of the flaws but where most people seem really put off by Danny's characterization I actually kind of appreciate what they were trying to do with him as a naive idealist who frustrates all the adults but also kind of inspires them to be better. Plus I had no expectations going in so wasn't bothered that it didn't meet my idea of Iron Fist. I'm also not someone who really watches fighting choreography with a critical eye so any failings in that department didn't really affect me.

All that being said its still a mess of a story that suffers from weak villains and their story not really making a lot of sense. My basic opinion is that Marvel slept on "The Defenders" while making DD S1, JJ, and Luke Cage and once they realized they didn't really have a plan on how to bring these characters together they really rushed the story through DD S2 and IF to try and set up Defenders. But it was a weak, poorly written story that didn't really work for Defenders and dragged those other two series down. DD S2 has more going on so it survives that but IF just kind of feels like a weak prologue to Defenders at worst and an "iffy" introduction of Danny at best. I just tend to lean towards the positive take.

HUGE SPACEKABLOOIE posted:

I don't think this quite covers it. More along the lines of...say...the sound you hear when a particularly loose and sloppy poo poo splashes in the water and sprays poo poo all over the bowl.

I didn't like Inhumans at all. Like, not even the way I'll defend elements of Iron Fist and say I mostly enjoyed it. Inhumans sucked and I really would struggle to say much good about it. But like, I don't really get angry or worked about this stuff or get anything out of colorful imagery ripping into it. Inhumans was just a show I started binging some weekend, really didn't like it, and ended up finishing watching it in the background over the next week or two. In the big picture I probably wish I had made better use of my time but its not the first or last bad show I'll do that with.

In general I'm just not someone you're likely to see really ripping into a show. "Dud" is probably an 8 or 9 on my bad meter. Because really, most things I genuinely hate are things I just don't watch.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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Well they can but they're gonna be important in Captain Marvel so its probably not as easy as them being available rightswise.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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But is Xavin a FF property? He/she debuted in Runaways so I'd assume she'd be Marvel property. I assume the issue is characters who debuted in Fantastic Four.



Also I don't want to keep the Iron Fist thing going but I'll just say I do basically agree with the criticisms of Danny, I just think it was a bunch of misfires and I think they were going for more of a naive but well meaning fool. But they clearly screwed up a lot which is one of the big flaws with the series.

And yes, Colleen and maybe even Joy and Ward are just better center pieces for the series. And Danny was a lot better in Defenders when he was just the little brother everyone clowned on and rolled their eyes at and occasionally browbeat for being ignorant.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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Point is Danny's clearly supposed to be a punching bag you want to strangle. They just hosed up the sliders.

That and its a pretty questionable idea to make your protagonist someone everyone wants to punch.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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cant cook creole bream posted:

I am a bit fuzzy on the details, but I'll try to remind you.

We first saw her, around the time her dad died. He was the guy who would get flashes of the future (mostly death). I think he was abducted by Hive, but its been a while.
Later on, at the start of the previous season, when Quake was going rogue and robbing banks, she gave Robin and her mother some money to support them. I believe she also handed her the bird from her father.
Now this season, when Fitz met Enoch, they saw those child drawings of the future. These visions where also the reason Enoch decided to bring Coulson and the gang to the future. So they went over to the child who drew those, to question her about that. Incidentally, that was Robin.

Its also worth mentioning that her father was the one who saw a Lincoln's (although an unidentified SHIELD agent at the time) death in space, which they built an entire subplot during the Hive story around.

That's why Daisy had such an attachment to his family. Not only did she feel bad she couldn't save the father but it all ties to Lincoln's death for her.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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I'm kind of disappointed there isn't a gif of Fitz losing his poo poo about time travel because that's basically me trying to make any sense of any time travel story.

That's a compliment, not a criticism. Keep it loose and lampshade it, SHIELD. Good job.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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I love this show but this thread is making me hate it because this is me when I try to understand or enjoy time travel/alternate timeline TV stuff.



That being said, From what I saw Fitz wasn't angry that Robin told him how Simmons dies, he was angry that Robin told him it AFTER Simmons had died. He was angry that Robin couldn't get it straight enough to warn him so he could have saved her. That's what broke him and his faith in all of this. Losing Simmons. The flashbacks all seemed linear to me.

I don't know what he meant by "we've done it before" but I'm not thinking that he was speaking literally. Maybe he was. Maybe they'd done loops and he remembered. But I kind of read it as the old "if I build a time machine come back to this point and tell me" thing. He never believed in time travel the same way he never believed in magic and it seems to make sense to me that Fitz would consider time travel a futile effort because if it had worked they wouldn't be in this mess.

Or something. I dunno. I hate time travel/alternate timeline stuff.

I guess May remembers what happened in her past/future with Robin? Or maybe Robin just told her that stuff and she believed it because she had faith? gently caress, man...


I love you, SHIELD, but thank god your pods are short and I can trust this will get some resolution soon.

STAC Goat fucked around with this message at Jan 23, 2018 around 04:35

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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I disagree. He says "she told me how Gemma dies" because that's how Robin told it. From a present/future tense because that's how she sees it. But the entire point of the episode was that she sees everything out of order and can't line it up right. So it read simply to me as Fitz being angry that she told him how Gemma dies AFTER she died and Fitz being furious about that in his grief.

I could be wrong but that's how it read to me and I just rewatched the scene and it still plays that way to me.

Fitz: She just described Jemma's death. Why don't you tell me how I'm supposed to live with that?
Robin: I thought I already told you.
May: You know she can't help it... she sees death like her father but she also sees a way out. That's why you designed the machine!

But this is why I hate time travel and alternate timelines and shows that do stuff like this and the threads that follow. I hate all this Lost stuff.

edit: On a third rewatch Fitz says "Voss couldn't change it" and Daisy "saw the aftermath and still destroyed the world." So yeah, maybe you're all right. I dunno. This stuff really does just kill my interest in a show I love.

STAC Goat fucked around with this message at Jan 23, 2018 around 04:53

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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You guys are all completely right that I need to just ignore the speculation and enjoy the show. I should have been clear that the problem isn't the show or the thread, its me being a nerd who has a hard time ignoring the speculation.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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I definitely don't think its the Framework. But what do I know?

But I think SHIELD basically leaves its past themes aside when they're done, except to try and work them into the general tapestry so they're not forgotten. It makes no thematic sense for this to have all been about the villain and plot from last season that absolutely no one has brought up even once this season. That's bad writing.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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Well that's just poetry.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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Did Aida need the Darkhold to keep the Framework running or just to design it? The Darkhold was key in Aida developing her own sentience, her designing the Framework, and her finding a way to transfer herself to a human host but it didn't seem like a power source. Just a means for design/creativity. Same with the ghost people. They had to build the stuff to make whatever they were doing happen, the Darkhold just seemed to show them how to do it.

But yeah, its 100 years or whatever in the future and alien tech is in play so it seems like an easy handwave. I mean, they're living on a self sufficient space station so technology is definitely moved forward.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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I read it as Deke used the Framework's design to build a much smaller and thus less complicated version of it. He's also got advanced science and tech as well as possibly co-opted alien science and tech (which SHIELD tech was in part anyway). Also him and his dad seems pretty smart given that his dad repaired a time machine based off some torn up, old specs.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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Moriatti posted:

I figured it was literally based on old Framework pieces.

Yeah. The only real question is how it survived when it appeared to get destroyed 100 years earlier. But Deke (and his dad) was just scavenging and repairing stuff, not creating and inventing.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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I actually think its a really cool little detail that Deke and the Kree both use the same basic mask/respirator thing that Star Lord does. Quill doesn't have some specialized equipment, he just buys off the rack. That makes sense.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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CAPT. Rainbowbeard posted:

His modern costume (from the Anihilation: Conquest comic arc and forward) is pretty much a Kree Guardsman outfit he's made some modifications over time to.

I've never read his comics so I was really just referring to the mask he wears in the GOTG movies. But like, I still think it kind of fits that what we see as "Star Lord's mask" is really just a piece of Kree tech he stole/modified/scavenged/whatever.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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Yeah, I'm gonna go watch that episode now. It was fun.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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Mylan posted:

I'm kinda hoping they end up putting daisy's inhibitor into robin after everything's been fixed just so the poor girl can live a normal life.

But then she wouldn't have the premonitions that lead to SHIELD getting pulled to the future to save the world where they wouldn't have gotten the inhibitor to stop Robin's premonitions so she'd have them to pull SHIELD into the future where they'd find her inhibitor and then she wouldn't have her prem...

I hate time travel.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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I don't know why we're spoiling this as its just speculation unless someone is cheating, but I respect a poster's desire not to be spoiled and am not one of those rear end who posts spoilers for fun, so whatever...

I absolutely think the seer is Yo-Yo, and I have a really deep speculated theory. YoYo led the human rebellion against Kasius and it failed. Kasius made a deal with the humans to give over YoYo and the inhumans for him to experiment on and he'd let them live as his servants. They took it and betrayed YoYo and generations of their children. That's why Kasius was so smug about how the deal for "inhumans for humans" had already been made and they'd "always turn on one another." Kasius has been experimenting on YoYo, killing her, and bringing her back to life the same way he did Tess. She's been through it for decades and is quite mad and subservient. Its how Kasius has gotten all his info about SHIELD all along, as well as his basis for inhuman experimentation.

That's my theory. I'll take fries with it.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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Yeah, I feel like they've basically set themselves up for this "pod" to end with them going back in time after defeating Kasius and freeing what's left of humanity, spending the second "pod" trying to prevent that future from ever happening, and spend the last "pod" dealing with the "flash of light" aliens that Voss mentioned. Which yeah, have a good chance of being the Kree and Kasius or maybe even the big war/battle that he and his brother were arguing about where his father sent him on a suicide mission.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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SpartanIV posted:

Guys I figured it out. The Seer is the psychic inhuman guy that Daisy befriended and May fought earlier. He is either reading their minds from quite some distance or he's reading the mind of someone from the previous loop who knows roughly what's going on. Or long shot, it's a revived Virgil, and he knows what's happening because of the Prophecy.

The Seer shouldn't be any of the team he's had in custody for 50 years and broke, because he didn't seem to have any knowledge of the future in the past. If he did he should have removed the stash of SHIELD weapons from the Lighthouse, known who Fitz was, known about the Zephyr on the surface, killed Robin when she was on the Lighthouse, etc.

If we assume that the "seer" is a captured SHIELD agent then it also seems safe to assume that they give information under duress, and thus only really answer the questions Kasius asks. The things you're listing are thinks that practically Kasius wouldn't have had reason to ask. "Hey, did anyone hide a cache of weapons in some panel of the lighthouse for decades?" just isn't the sort of question anyone would think to ask until it comes up. And there's a difference between knowing who Fitz or Robin are and knowing WHO they are. Unless he had a sketch artist sit down with his seer he could know Fitz is in play but not know who he is.

I mean, there's intel holes like why the "seer" never told Kasius that Fitz would infiltrate his inner circle and bust Jemma and Daisy out. But that's all easily handwoven away by saying if he didn't ask direct questions he didn't get full answers. Which isn't to say it PROVES its a SHIELD agent either. But it just doesn't seem as disqualifying as you put it.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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Rhyno posted:

I want one episode.

"May tries to relax."

Aida tried that. It doesn't work.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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Yeah, assuming he just got poisoned by the Kree means ignoring the Ghost Rider/Robbie thing that has had no payoff. The simplest answer is that whatever is killing Coulson was already killing him back when Robbie said that.

I don't know WHAT's killing him. The Kree blood seems like a reasonable possibility. There's probably a dozen other possible culprits. I'm content to wait for the show to tell me. I'm just hopeful the time travel nonsense is mostly done.

Aleph Null posted:

It was a season-long arc. I think they just expected us to remember that TAHITI was a magical place.

Yeah, they made a small little note to it when Tess showed up and they all looked awkwardly at each other and Coulson "we've seen this before."

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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Kheldarn posted:

I was under the impression that Jemma went off on her own, not because she was told to. I seem to remember Coulson saying something about her being gone...

As I remember it she was off with Daisy on some task and Jemma just got caught because she insisted on helping the dying person. Which is a totally in character decision and the opposite of "psychotic" and "selfish",

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:

It was May, but I think the poster is talking about in the last episode where she just runs off alone to get Mack.

I mean, that's just her once again not wanting to leave her teammates behind. I suppose it might not have been the smartest move but that's probably a matter of opinion and still comes down to Jemma being a healer/helper/whatever.

I don't know. I never really got the sense that anyone was acting noticeably out of character or "psychotic." Daisy running off to try and solve the problem herself is kind of her thing, Coulson struggling with "duty" over "family" is kind of his thing, May was dealing with a crippling injury and a surprise elderly kid, etc.

The only time I can remember being sort of surprised was that moment Fitz killed those Kree with the trip wire. Jemma and Mack both seemed briefly taken aback by that, I thought, as I was. But I chalk that up to residual from his Nazi counterpart in the Framework.

Its possible I missed some bigger things because I was just impressed they weren't crying in a corner after everything they've been through the last season and a half.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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Yeah, Fitz has shown his capability to be a bad rear end agent at least as far back as Jemma's transport to Hydra-Planet. The Nazi Framework history just seems like it might have given him a harder, more lethal edge. Especially with him immediately being separated from Jemma and his family at his most emotionally vulnerable point. That poo poo can change a man.

But we'll see.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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They don't really have to, do they? Han Fitz stays frozen wherever Enoch stashed him because anything else would theoretically change the timeline or some other timey wimey nonsense.

I mean, the biggest question is if SHIELD chooses to take control of him or if Thawed Fitz is curious. But since SHIELD bases have a tendency to blow up and Enoch already pulled it off once it seems like an "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" situation.

Otherwise Fitz just has to avoid running afoul of his other self at the Enchantment Under the Sea dance.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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They could always just defrost him in the far future when the world isn't exploded?

I dunno. This is why I hate time travel.


STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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I think its never going to be brought up again because we're all just nerds overthinking things.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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edit: Wrong thread, idea, whatevr. Sorry.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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I love how Deke's personality changed entirely, and not in a bad writing way at all. Like, when he was living in a miserable dystopia where everyone he gives a poo poo about gets eaten by giant alien cockaroaches he was a cynical jaded rear end in a top hat. But the second he sees the sun, trees, and garbage ice cream he's a giddy wide eyed child who can't even grasp the concept of animal crackers.

That was fun.

I don't know how I feel about the evil warrior Disney teen. Although I guess I'm glad she's evil and crazy because I was never going to sympathize with her.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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The general was new to the Fitz flashback episode last pod, the one with Hunter. Her daughter is new to this episode as we're the robot super soldiers.

The jogger is Carl Creel, aka the Absorbing Man. He's showed up off and on through much of the shows run. He absorbs the property of stuff he touches.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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I assume she jumped in its path and it sliced through her arms as she had them outreached.

But i don't know why the disc sliced through both her arms and didn't just keep going and get Mack. Maybe they lost momentum or something? Maybe the Disney girl has bad aim? I don't know the technology of it. Maybe YoYo pushed him out of the way?

Luckily I don't really care.

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STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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Mymla posted:

I think the writers might not have planned for what exactly cut off Yoyo's arms when they had Future Yoyo show up with no arms, and this was the best they could come up with.

That doesn't really make any sense since they easily could have handwaved it away as something Kasius did. Which is what I was figuring anyway since YoYo had her arms in the other future flashbacks. It wasn't a question that needed answering.

It was a dramatic choice to give consequence and establish the new villain, as well as something to push YoYo towards the "its all happening the same way" path and keep up her and Daisy's fears that they're just repeating history.

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