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DACK FAYDEN posted:What I came here to post: man how the hell does anyone beat the final final boss (and fight before it) above A0, I'm even dying on A0, what the hell, big numbers in crazy ways I'm currently 3/3 on that fight (all three characters, two A17s and an A9). I don't expect that to last, but what's worked so far is just the standard routes that maximize elite counts while getting lots of normal fights for cards early in Act 1 and lots of question marks for good events in the later acts. The decks were: 1) Ironclad: Corruption deck with splashes of his other two main strategies. Two Body Slams that I picked up early, plus a Barricade picked up late synergized well with the Corruption for block stacking. I also lucked into Orange Pellets early and so picked up Flex and upgraded it as soon as possible. That and a steroid potion saved for the last battle gave me a good bit of strength. 2) Silent: A janky lots-of-ok-cards deck. I drew Philosopher's Stone at the start and Toxic Egg early, which both made it easy to breeze through the game looking for the strongest powerups and dictated my strategy. I picked up several Quick Slashes, an Afterimage and Terrorize, and just focused on playing lots of cards for moderate effect. I had a Nightmare that osciallated between doing nothing and triviallizing fights (when used on Afterimage, the Ghost Form that I eventually grabbed, or a few other cards). By the final fight I had Shuriken, Unceasing Top, lots of energy relics and several Shiv cards. Afterimage let me play all those cards, and the strength-stacking and solid damage output let me kill the heart before it killed me. 3). Defect: Sometimes you get two Echo Forms. Sometimes you get two Echo Forms, Meteor Strike, Sunder, and Enlightenment. I had a good bit of luck in all three runs, but this was the stupidly luckiest run of them all. I could play very expensive cards frequently and double their effects. I struggled a bit with blocking, but was able to draft just enough (in conjunction with Runic Pyramid letting me hold it for the turns that mattered) to keep incoming damage below what an Echo-Formed Self Repair could handle. Boot Sequence helped a great deal there. The first Boot Sequence that you draft is, IMO, one of the Defect's strongest cards, just behind Echo Form and the other mostly-rare run-defining cards. It just saves so much attrition damage (especially in conjunction with the power-heavy setup turns that you want to have) and plays well with Hologram/All for One/Runic Pyramid in fights where the enemy doesn't lead with an attack. Some other points: The ability to nuke down one of the enemies in the first two turns of the fight before the last boss is very good. I got a lot of mileage out of Pen Nib and Ritual Dagger in multiple runs. The final fight went quickly (from four to seven turns) in all three runs. Given the way the heart scales, that's probably a necessity without lots of intangible or Entrench combined with either Barricade or Calipers. Thorns are obviously nice. Medikit is a good pick (and I mistakenly bought a Toolbox in my Silent run because the icon looks similar). Card draw is as important as ever: two Battle Trances did a lot for me in the Ironclad run. There are a lot of relics that I didn't mention individually but that helped a great deal in aggregate: elite hunting is really important both for the chances to get a transformative card or relic and for the moderate, incremental upgrades that it offers. I mostly picked up the keys late. The elite key can be whenever you're feeling strong and can fit it into your route: usually Act 3, but sometimes earlier if things are going well. I delayed the chest key until it was opposite a weak relic or I was at the last guaranteed chance. The campfire key was always the last or second-to-last campfire (second-to-last if I thought it possible that I'd need an emergency rest or get a card that I'd want to upgrade between it and the last). HundredBears fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Nov 23, 2018 |
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Nov 23, 2018 16:03
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ninjewtsu posted:flooding your deck full of unupgraded, non-synergistic random stuff just seems like it'd be decent until the first time your deck cycles, then suddenly you've got nothing but trash in your deck I'm not sure how familiar you are with the conventional approach to high ascension: if you're not, it may come as a surprise that 35 cards is an ordinary size for a deck facing the heart. Even in earlier acts, you often have enough cards either to have the fight under control by the time you reshuffle or to dilute bad cards from Dead Branch. If your deck is weak enough that it can't get things under control or tolerate some bad cards, you expect to take quite a bit of damage in fights, so there's a drastic upside from lucking into a Piercing Wail, Wraith Form, Well-Laid Plans, etc. or even just a block/damage card that's better than the mostly un-upgraded Strikes and Defends that still make up a significant portion of the deck. My own experience with shiv decks is that the best ones don't go all-in on shivs. It's more about getting a modest amount of cards to help you take advantage of three-attacks-in-a-turn relics or Envenom with Snecko Skull than it is investing in questionable things like Wrist Blades and Accuracy or piles of shiv-generating commons. As a result, it takes even longer for your deck to suffer from Dead Branch. If you see seven cards in an average turn and exhaust two, some of which generate good cards, clutter is rarely a problem even after a reshuffle or two.
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Feb 18, 2019 08:21
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Running lots of Claws with Scrape and All for One is a terrible idea, but a deck with 1-2 Claws and some combination of Hologram and Echo Form (which are of course valuable cards even without Claw) can get quite a bit of damage out of them.
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May 3, 2019 06:21
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OzFactor posted:Is the suggestion that you should avoid early elites with a Silent? On high ascension, a route that takes an elite before hitting any campfires is an aggressive one for all classes, and often something that I'm hesitant to take unless it has a store or I have a helpful whale bonus. Sometimes the best chance is to just take it and risk dying because you didn't get the chance to add a few common attacks to your deck, but when playing as the Silent on lower ascension, who still has some of that trouble with elite fights before A18 and who has less need of eking out every possible reward from the first act than she would at a higher difficulty, it may be best to take the conservative route.
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May 21, 2019 21:12
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Nephzinho posted:Found the defect and ironclad to just be "within the first few rewards you have to more or less commit to a build" and pray. This is probably a sign that you're thinking too much in terms of archetypes and not enough in terms of your deck's capabilities. On the higher ascensions, your first few picks are often cards that you'd rather not have in your deck long-term, but will help you get the most value of out Act 1. For instance, Ball Lightning is one of the cards that I'm happiest to see after the first hallway fight, but it tends to be worse than skipping well before the end of Act 2. Between all the generically good cards (Defect almost always wants focus and some form of frost orb generation, cards like Shrug It Off and Disarm go in just about any Ironclad deck), the need to include un-synergistic cards do well in upcoming fights (sometimes you just need block, AoE or a Rampage for the Champ that you never use again, etc.) and the ability to mix and match archetypes (lots of decks can use different synergies for attack and block, like an exhaust-heavy Ironclad deck that still use strength gain for damage), even decks that beat the Heart on A20 have room for a much wider variety of cards than it seems.
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Jul 14, 2019 21:12
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The deck is the result of a lot of luck in relics and cards offered (and Ultima66's good sense in building around that luck). Corruption + Dead Branch is one of the most powerful combinations in the game for many reasons, not least because adding True Grit + Juggernaut generates quite a bit of block and damage each turn. Beyond that, there's a lot of individually strong cards and relics that also play well with each other. For instance: Snecko is one of the two boss relics that stand head-and-shoulders above the rest while being especially good with Corruption, Self-Forming Clay is generically strong and works with the self-damage theme that the deck has (once it gets going, the deck draws a card, gains a strength, gets three block and then does seven damage off of Brutality, Offering and any other self-damage cards it Dead Branches into), and Apparition almost certainly saved the run at least once.
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Aug 31, 2019 23:54
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Defect is mostly about getting scaling and not dying in the time it takes that scaling to do its thing. Good play involves rarely turning down Echo Form, Capacitor or a +Focus card (although there are a few circumstances where you'll skip each of them, especially Consumption), figuring out how you'll block (usually but not always frost orbs supplemented by a few good block cards) and grabbing just enough mediocre damage cards to get you through elite fights in act I and hallway fights in act II (depending on how things go, you may or may not be able to handle act II elites).
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Sep 12, 2019 22:42
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I've taken Grande Finale and not always regretted it. It's not so much a build-around as it is something that you can run incidentally if you have both a way to make sure it's in your hand the first time that you empty your deck (Runic Pyramid, a bottled Well-Laid Plans, maybe multiple Well-Laid Plans) and enough card draw to massage your draw pile into the right size. It can be just what you need to have a good act II, even if it's not a card that I'd pick up speculatively, over many other rares, or late in the game.
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Sep 23, 2019 23:13
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You get those things even if you don't take the blessing, though. All it saves you are the (usually not very many) hp that you would have lost in the fights.
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Oct 2, 2019 10:49
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military cervix posted:I have to say that the watcher feels a bit overtuned at the moment After taking the time for a few A20 runs today (3-2 against the heart), I have to agree. A win-rate in the neighborhood of 50% feels sustainable, even though I haven't even played ten games with the character and do much worse on the other three. Before the last big rework, her main weakness was scaling. Now she has lots of powerful cards to take care of it, most notably Establishment, Wish, Deva Form and Fasting. The new Vault plays ridiculously well with the way that so much of her scaling makes her passively better every turn, too.
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Oct 7, 2019 02:07
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RyokoTK posted:Path to Victory is a skill that now causes the target enemy to lose 5(7) HP. Seems stupid but maybe I’m missing something; there’s no synergy for non-attack damage for the Watcher. Presumably the lack of synergy is the point, and the developers thought that making it work with wrath and divinity would be too strong. I haven't played with it yet, but the phrasing implies that it gives the target a stacking debuff, so it would do either 5-10-15 etc. or 0-5-10 etc. damage. Multiple copies could be good, although I'm skeptical that it's worth gambling on given how poorly it lines up against so many of the specific fights of the first two acts.
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Oct 9, 2019 02:33
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Arsenic Lupin posted:This is me being bad at Silent and bad at Defect. (album) On the assumption that you're looking for advice: You're taking very cautious paths through act 1. Sometimes there are no safe two-elite paths, but it's rare. I find myself getting away with three elite fights in the act more frequently than having to take just one. The combination of taking a bunch of mediocre commons and charting a conservative course is especially bad: the whole point of putting cards like Rip and Tear and Flying Knee into you deck is that getting relics/gold/rare card rewards now is worth having cards in your deck that you'd rather not have later, but there's no point in grabbing them if they don't let you take a harder path through the act. Aim for more act 1 elite fights. Your boss relic picks could probably be better. It's hard to say what you should be doing without seeing what the other choices were, though, since sometimes none of the three are terribly appealing. My guess is that you're overestimating the downside of some energy relics: Fusion Core is one of the weaker ones, given how quickly the orb tends to go away, while several of the others are surprisingly manageable. The issue could be something else, however. Your silent run took a very ambitious act 2 route. A weak deck will sometimes want to skip all elite fights in that act, but instead you took two off of one campfire. I'm not going to go too far into individual card choices, although I will note that Setup is almost always bad, 4x Go for the Eyes is too many and the Neutralize upgrade tends to save more health than Survivor's. One thing, though, is to think very hard about how cards will help you solve upcoming challenges rather than how good they seem in the abstract or even how strong they are with other individual cards in your deck. Take Apotheosis in the silent run. No doubt it looked appealing with all the un-upgraded cards in your deck, but assuming that you bought it at the last shop, it's a two-energy card that does very little the turn it's played when you're facing two elite fights on three energy, and two of the possible three fights (slavers and gremlin leader) call for lots of damage in the first few turns. Likewise with Thunder Strike for the defect, the lightning orbs must have made it look appealing, but how can it be played once you've channeled enough lightning for it do do a lot of damage (putting you on three energy) when the deck has to either spend multiple energy on blocking or take a lot of damage every time it's attacked in act 3? Playing well requires you to learn the fights well enough that when you evaluate a card, you can consider how it will work with your current cards and relics to help you out in the specific fights that you're liable to face later in the run. That's no small amount of learning and it will happen gradually over many hours of play, but focusing on it will help you figure out how fast your deck needs to be before you can risk fighting the giant head or how poorly Envenom lines up with the demands of act 2.
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Oct 22, 2019 00:24
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Arsenic Lupin posted:I've also been very conservative about picking both cards and relics that have a cost; for instance, Biased Cognition makes me nervous because I worry about not finishing the fight within four rounds. Biased Cog is a great example of downsides being more manageable than they look, even when you can't use artifact charges or Orange Pellets to dodge the debuff. There will certainly be times when you draw it and aren't able to play it, but it will typically save you more health than it costs you even if the fight goes on for six rounds. Spirelogs is a place to start and can give you useful information, but just taking the relic with the highest win rate will hurt you since boss relics are so situational: for instance, some decks will barely notice downsides like the inability to play more than six cards per turn or rest at campfires, while others will fall apart or run out of health halfway through the next act. My own rough valuations: Snecko Eye is excellent unless the deck relies on 0-cost cards or has lots of cheap powers that it wants to play when it draws them (e.g. a defect deck with multiple Defragments can suffer when it rolls high on their costs and has to do other things on the turns that it puts them into play, although the eye is sometimes worth taking in that situation anyway). Runic Pyramid is good whenever you don't already have Snecko Eye, and especially strong with cards that want to be played at particular times (Reaper, Feed, Ritual Dagger, Spot Weakness, Limit Break, Piercing Wail, Wraith Form, several others). The first energy relic is very good. The above two relics are often better, but going up to four energy is stronger than most other boss relics unless the drawback is particularly bad (Choker and Dripper in decks that can't handle them, Busted Crown unless the deck already has most of the cards that it wants, Runic Dome in many decks, the old version of Hovering Kite in decks that aren't good at drawing cards, arguably Mark of Pain, occasionally others). A second energy relic is rarely as strong, but is sometimes the right choice, typically when the drawback is mild and the deck is playing cards that draw others during most turns. Some relics are particularly situational. Black Star does very well when you're strong enough to take it and survive multiple elite fights next act and is of course quite weak otherwise. Runic Cube can be a handy source of card draw, but needs to be in a deck that can make use of the cards and ideally with a bit of self-damage. It also plays poorly with Runic Pyramid, which is often drawing as many cards as can fit in its hand anyway, and Combust, which causes you to draw a card at the end of a turn and then immediately discard it. Pandora's Box varies with how many Strikes and Defends are left in the deck, whether they're upgraded (transforming a card doesn't keep the upgrade), whether you have the egg relics (which will upgrade the new cards) and whether the deck can still block once you take all of the Defends out of it. Inserter is quite strong if you lack other ways to make orb slots, but does little in the first few turns and can even be a net negative when you're trying to invoke orbs early in the fight, so it isn't what decks that struggle with the early turns need (especially in act 2). Astrolabe has a significant and positive expected value (higher, like Pandora's Bell, when you have three un-upgraded Strikes to dump, but almost always significant and positive). It will often be outclassed by another relic that's stronger or fits the situation better, though. The beta version of the Calling Bell probably falls into this category as well, although decks will vary somewhat in how well they can handle a curse or benefit from random relics. Empty Cage, Black Blood, Ring of the Serpent and Tiny House are usually disappointing picks. The cage and the ring are ok (and the ring would be nice if it didn't come at the cost of the silent's starter), but they're never what you want to see. Wrist Blade and Frozen Core are bad. Even a Shiv deck isn't too excited about Wrist Blade. HundredBears fucked around with this message at 05:50 on Oct 22, 2019 |
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Oct 22, 2019 05:02
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I find that the parasite often has most of its armor left when it dies. I'm usually blocking heavily and waiting for a window when I can get in some big attacks under vulnerable or after buffing strength, although a deck that's isn't strong defensively can be forced to go all in on attacks. It helps quite a bit to have 3+ turns worth of weak in your deck as well.
HundredBears fucked around with this message at 00:35 on Oct 26, 2019 |
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Oct 25, 2019 00:44
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It's an Eternal Feather after the last campfire. If memory serves, there's precedent for removing relics like Peace Pipe and Shovel from the reward pool for that fight, but Feather stopped being a boss relic after the change, so it can still show up there.
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Jan 16, 2020 00:56
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rchandra posted:How do you all evaluate the various metagame Fatal cards? So much of this game is situational that they're all too variable for a static ordering to mean much. If you just picked up a great card in the act 4 shop and it's the last unupgraded one in your deck because you've had Lesson Learned for most of the game, there's a very obvious right ordering, but if the last unupgraded card in your deck is a Strike that's likely to end up removed, things are different. In the abstract, I might put their power levels as Lesson > Feed > Hand, based off of the decisions that I usually make at various events, stores and whales. If you value Hand over Lesson, that's a lot like saying that spending 150 gold for a triple Whetstone that upgrades 6 random cards is a bad deal. It varies so much from situation to situation though, that Hand will easily be the best sometimes. Maybe you have Bloody Idol or have to take damage to get the other card off or you have two energy with it in hand and can spend one of it to look for Feed before your Mercury Hourglass kills next turn or are in a situation where a few upgrades won't win you the upcoming boss fight but a bit more gold might let you buy the card or relic that will.
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Jan 21, 2020 00:49
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Jedit posted:What's missing? Vulnerable.
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Feb 9, 2020 11:57
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The Face Trader gives one of five relics unique to the event when you swap faces, and picking that option is frequently not the best move, so filling out the compendium can take quite a few runs.
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Feb 11, 2020 04:17
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The last one gives gold whenever you visit a question mark (25 or 50, I think).
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Feb 11, 2020 04:28
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tuyop posted:I thought this run was a bit promising. Maybe only the second time I made it through the Beyond with The Silent. Now I'm sad. To give a post-mortem, that's a deck with too many bad-to-mediocre cards and a shortage of block and card draw. If you take out the six weakest cards that you added and put in a pair of Backflips, it gets much better. The relics and Glass Knife presumably suckered you into going for Phantasmal Killer with lots of attacks (a weaker strategy than it seems, rarely worthwhile without Runic Pyramid or Well-Laid Plans to set things up), and then the healing from the Bites made the deck feel stronger than it was. When evaluating cards, it helps to know that cards that do nothing the turn that they're played need to be extremely powerful or provide a benefit that lasts the whole fight (e.g. many powers, poison) to be worth taking and that cards yielding nothing except energy require you to have much better card draw than energy generation. Both of these factors cut against Outmaneuver and Distraction, two cards that the Silent very rarely wants. Common attacks are cards that are best thought of as costs: you put a few of them in your deck because you need them to deal with early fights, but would rather not have them later in the run. Especially if you got the Glass Knife early, this is a deck that could have managed with half as many attacks as you added. Continuing the theme of cards that you could cut, adding a curse to your deck in exchange for a relic tends to be a poor trade. It's not at all obvious to new players, but it's usually best not to open chests if you have a Cursed Key. If I'm remembering the the first decks that you posted in the thread correctly, this is an improvement: it has a notable amount of damage, scaling, card draw and block, just not in quite the right ratio. There's much more to be said about routing and the value of card removes, but you're at a point where learning to keep your deck a bit slimmer with enough block and card draw (by the time you had four energy, Happy Flower and a few good cards, draw is a major priority) should be enough to push you over the finish line. HundredBears fucked around with this message at 06:01 on Apr 4, 2020 |
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Apr 4, 2020 05:59
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The first thing that I noticed is the number of common attacks: you want to put as few of them in your deck as you can get away with, especially on the Silent, who tends to go light on attack damage of all sorts in favor of poison. In general, you want to stop taking them partway through act 1 (very early if you get particularly good damage like Glass Knife or a Skewer that you can afford to upgrade, potentially quite late if your deck isn't good at damage and still has an elite fight left). The stronger damage commons include Poisoned Stab (can do much more damage than any other in a long fight against a single enemy), Dagger Throw (both the draw and discard can be handy) and Dagger Spray (if you don't have any other tools, like Mercury Hourglass, for multiple enemies). The others are somewhat lackluster (barring Cloak and Dagger, although that's only half a damage common), though there will be times that you'll want to take each of them. Sucker Punch, in particular, suffers both in that it really wants an upgrade and that the weak options that Silent has at uncommon are very, very good. Don't sleep on Crippling Cloud.
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Jun 17, 2020 04:54
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Jedit posted:It should actually be closer to 4. You will draw 7 cards which on average will be two of each cost 0-3 with one cost only having one card. Only if there is only one zero can you play fewer than 4 cards (2/1/0), so 75% of the time you can play four. Assuming that I did the math right, it comes to around 60%: about 24% of drawing at least 3 zero-cost cards, 26% of 2 along with a one-cost and at least one other one or two-cost and 10% of 1 along with three one-cost cards. Edit: And I immediately realized that I didn't do the math right and had to recalculate the chance of 2 zero-cost along with low enough energy costs on the others. It should be correct now. HundredBears fucked around with this message at 19:37 on Jun 18, 2020 |
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Jun 18, 2020 19:31
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Gone Fashing posted:so it's another copy of whatever your best skill is Is it? It doesn't let you play an exhaust skill a second time, or even a non-exhaust skill more than once per reshuffle. The ability to manipulate the turns on which you get your skills can be pretty nice, but it's a different thing from the increased output of block/poison/weak stacks/turns of intangible etc. that adding another copy of a skill to your deck can provide.
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Jun 26, 2020 23:28
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Deckit posted:I have just never been brave enough to go for the heart during ascension climbs. Maybe I'll start trying with Silent. If memory serves, killing the act 3 boss unlocks the next ascension even if you die during act 4 of the same run.
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Oct 10, 2020 15:55
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I'm no expert on score-maximizing, but my assumption would be that there's a route that picks up an early Prayer Wheel and uses it with Hoarder to rack up a ridiculous Collector bonus.
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Oct 29, 2020 04:16
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JesustheDarkLord posted:I've never had luck with Runic Pyramid. If I relic swap to it, what should I look for in my route and card selections? Card draw gets less valuable, while energy and exhaust get more valuable, all because of that hand-clogging issue that you mention. Zero-cost gets better, though not to the point that I'd pick up an early Deflect, for instance (an early Boot Camp, on the other hand...). Cards that scale with hand size (Fiend Fire, Flechettes, Bullet Time) become very strong. A lot of cards that don't seem situational actually are. Thunderclap, for instance, can be a great pickup if you already have a high-damage, two-energy card. You can sometimes take an easier path than you normally would, since Runic Pyramid + 4 energy is a strong thing to have in Act 2, but you do still have to get strong enough to kill the boss. I've had few if any first-act boss fights with Runic Pyramid, but I imagine that the thing to do against Slime Boss would be to use it to get a very good split before it overwhelms you with Slimes. It should be quite strong against Guardian, but only sometimes that impactful vs Hexaghost (obviously great with Piercing Wail, but not necessarily much of a help in the damage race that characterizes the fight).
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Nov 12, 2020 20:30
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Feels Villeneuve posted:Is bottling a high end block card a bad idea? I'm with WarpedLichen that I'd rarely rarely bottle one instead of card draw or something like Crippling Cloud or Shockwave, but they're great with Runic Pyramid and probably better than skipping the relic unless your deck is very unconcerned about the damage that it takes in hallway fights.
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Jan 24, 2021 21:15
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FnF posted:Some thoughts and musing on possible optimisations: The biggest optimization has to be taking something other than Busted Crown, right? Picking it in Act 1 is very frequently going to lead to the exact problem that you had here, where you couldn't find all the cards that you needed. In a deck that only has five cards in its starting hand, I'd also be leery about dedicating even one of them to a card that I wouldn't want to have against the Spear and Shield. Maybe either Backstab or the bottled Glass Knife was a necessary sacrifice to get through the early game, but going with both and the Afterimage puts you in a very rough position for that fight. I wonder if the play was to recognize early in Act 3 that you could expect to have an extremely hard Act 4, and then fish for potions that would be good there with Alchemize while trying to get strong enough to get through the Act 3 bosses with one potion slot locked. If you had kept the deck a bit leaner with regard to attacks and seen a few more of the commons that it wanted, that might have been enough. Focusing on Act 4 also pushes you hard toward Pellets, since they turn Speed Potion into a huge hit and save so much health against the Heart. Fumes plus Liquid Bronze (or maybe even Poison Potion/Orange Pellets Flex potion) gets you close to solving your damage issues there: it's probably enough if you could afford to hold Malaise for the third multi-attack.
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Feb 17, 2022 21:19
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Star posted:Well this is an unfortunate situation Doesn't Ornamental Fan go off before Beat of Death? Edit: Oh, you're capped at less than 8 damage, oops.
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Jan 24, 2023 10:53
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