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Full disclaimer: I will be keeping a very close eye on this thread.
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Jan 26, 2018 22:35
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| # ¿ Apr 27, 2024 00:15 |
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When outside the lines says they have new info, you always expect worse. This is horrifying.
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Jan 27, 2018 00:35
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Burn it all to the loving ground. That's vile.
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Jan 27, 2018 18:09
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swickles posted:I don't know if he has an advanced degree, but Youngstown State hired Jim Tressel, who was a big name. In a role whose largest responsibility is to keep the money flowing, then fame often outweighs experience or education. He has a Masters from Akron.
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Jan 29, 2018 00:47
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sportsgenius86 posted:https://www.elevenwarriors.com/coll...him-immediately The problem with trademarks is that if one doesn't defend it, it could easily be considered no longer trademarked. Not saying I'm defending the aggressiveness, but that's why they do it.
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Feb 1, 2018 16:04
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... I see then. But I don't particularly see how this is relevant to the topic at hand (outside of him showing creepy videos).
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Feb 5, 2018 15:25
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AsInHowe, now is really not the time to shill for Michigan over Michigan State. I understand rivalries and all that but it's horribly tasteless.
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Mar 28, 2018 06:33
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As if on cue, RAINN just sent out an email about "what's abuse at the doctor's office."
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Apr 3, 2018 20:15
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Here is my absolute surprise that this shitheal is a republican:
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Jul 6, 2018 22:08
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The problem is this is an out of scope problem in the NCAA's view. The most they could do is dismantle the gymnastics program, and what good would that do?
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Aug 30, 2018 17:11
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Drunk Canuck posted:Death penalty. And what does that accomplish? A symbolic gesture that gives the university the ability to axe gymnastics wholly and not bring it back? e: I'm not saying that something shouldn't be done here, but is it within the NCAA's purview to actually do something regarding this?
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Aug 30, 2018 17:14
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The last time the NCAA dealt with this we got Penn State.
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Aug 30, 2018 17:48
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jit bull transpile posted:like, my mind is seriously boggled by the argument that it's too extreme a move to fire all the people who ignored or gave shelter to a child molestor. Yes, but I ask again, is that within the purview of the NCAA? I understand it's a corrupt organization only matched by the IOC and FIFA, but is it their purview to fire employees that are not their own? Trust me, I want those people fired, but asking the NCAA to do it is a losing battle. They only care about whether or not money changed hands.
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Aug 30, 2018 17:55
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Applying the death penalty, or any significant punishment, to the MSU gymnastics program will have only one effect: "Well, we're closing it up. We'll reopen it at a later date. *years pass, hasn't been reopened, with no sign of it coming back in sight*"
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Aug 30, 2018 18:07
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Lessail posted:That sounds better than what happened with Penn State, yes So you want to punish the athletes who may have been a victim of this whole mess by telling them "go to a different school" now? This is why I don't like the NCAA coming down and handing down the death penalty. It punishes the athletes, who are the victims in this case, more than the school itself. This isn't Baylor where the people who did the gross poo poo were the athletes, the athletes were the victims. If anything, the NCAA should hand down lifetime bans to everyone involved with the coverup from participating in any NCAA sport in any capacity, including AD or coach, but they won't do that. e: I know someone is going to come in and go "What about Penn State then?" Joe Pa should have been stripped of all wins since Sandusky started his camp, all bowl wins and any national titles stripped, and none of that should have been ever given back to PSU or JoePa, period. I don't feel right punishing the players by way of scholarship losses, who in this case were a completely unrelated third party, because of the sins of a coach, beyond firing said coach and stripping wins. PSU's fans reactions were loving gross though (also Urban Meyer should have been shown cause). tl;dr: I want the NCAA to do more, but I don't see what they can do that wouldn't harm the victims in this case more than the people who sat on their asses. iospace fucked around with this message at 05:49 on Aug 31, 2018 |
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Aug 31, 2018 05:33
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Metapod posted:the wins were stripped op but then they were reinstated lmao I know, which is why I said they should have never been given back.
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Aug 31, 2018 05:48
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Lessail posted:Why would they want to go to that specific school in the first place Maybe their parents did, maybe it's close by, maybe they offered a scholarship when no one else did. There's a bunch of reasons and those are the first ones that came to mind.
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Aug 31, 2018 20:51
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Lessail posted:Ah, so gaining prestige from the cover up never entered your mind, now I see where the disconnect is. Please explain what you mean by this. I'm curious now.
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Aug 31, 2018 20:55
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Lessail posted:If a successful coach continues to be successful while covering up abuses, the idea of what the institute is that is built during that time can get solidified long before any blowback comes. So in other words, what we saw with Penn State and Baylor where the fans felt they were attacked in this whole thing?
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Aug 31, 2018 21:03
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Lessail posted:Like to clear it up some more. What you said here: So basically, now that I stepped away to grind some coffee and thought about it for a few minutes, you're saying that people are going to go to the school to spite those who say you shouldn't because of the coverup?
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Aug 31, 2018 21:25
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CharlestheHammer posted:He’s saying that taking away titles and wins doesn’t mean anything. They still happened, most aren’t gonna care that they aren’t in an official record book. I know. I don't feel right though, personally, punishing students and athletes for poo poo they didn't do. And I understand some people probably did go to MSU under the pretense that the university was better than that, and people will continue to do so, unfortunately.
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Aug 31, 2018 21:44
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CharlestheHammer posted:Punishment of anything bigger than one person is gonna effect others, maybe even innocent people. You do realize that some of Nassars victims could still be attending, right? So let's punish them, again.
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Aug 31, 2018 21:57
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Lockback posted:What? Our legal system is built on the idea that it is far more important to let guilty people go than punish an innocent. "You gotta hurt innocents to maybe hurt guilty people" is total garbage. My big issue here is that Nassar was fired in 2016. It's well within the realm of possibility that some of his victims may still be attending, and bringing down the hammer on them leaves a completely gross taste in my mouth.
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Aug 31, 2018 22:04
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Lessail posted:I suppose we shouldn't enforce laws against a company that forces it to shut down then So again, I ask you, after the NCAA sat on their rear end after Baylor happened, what did you expect them to do here? You knew full well nothing would happen. Should they have done something? Yeah, ban everyone involved in the coverup. They won't though because it's not a money issue.
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Aug 31, 2018 22:06
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Lessail posted:It's more that they won't because it is a money issue How is this a money issue?
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Aug 31, 2018 22:09
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Lessail posted:Well, for starters, if harsher punishments start coming from the ncaa the bigger schools might begin to think the ncaa isn't needed anymore Let me rephrase this. How was what Michigan State did, covering up and failing to act on the sexual abuse by Larry Nassar, a money issue?
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Aug 31, 2018 22:37
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CharlestheHammer posted:That isn’t really true or there would be no laws. It’s literally unavoidable. Yes, because a corporation is the same thing as a public education institution.
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Aug 31, 2018 22:41
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CharlestheHammer posted:I mean yeah they are especially modern universities but let’s get more personal iospace posted:My big issue here is that Nassar was fired in 2016. It's well within the realm of possibility that some of his victims may still be attending, and bringing down the hammer on them leaves a completely gross taste in my mouth. So you're telling me that you want the victims to be punished now. Lovely.
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Aug 31, 2018 22:58
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CharlestheHammer posted:Sigh, you have no real interest in engaging what I’ve said do you. You just want to be self righteous. Well you do you. So are you. You want to go "there's no one that escapes punishment here!" when we know full well that the organization in question that we want punishment from was going to go "no punishment" from the outset. You can froth at the mouth or you can boycott the NCAA sports. Meanwhile Lessail is saying that everyone who goes to MSU after this point is now complicit with the coverup because ~reasons~. This isn't loving Baylor, this is a situation where the athletes were the victims, not the perpetrators. (full disclosure: I fully believe that Baylor should have gotten the death penalty. MSU I do not believe should)
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Aug 31, 2018 23:04
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Lessail posted:That's not what I've said at all Ok, let me rephrase that: Lessail posted:No, I'm saying that they're going to go to the school because there's still an idea of what the school is that was built on the back of the cover up. You pretty much are lumping EVERYONE who went to MSU after this story broke as being foolish or believing that the school is still good despite this, despite me presenting plenty of other reasons for going to the school that had absolutely zero reason to do with the integrity of the school.
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Aug 31, 2018 23:07
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CharlestheHammer posted:It’s okay he’s just flailing about at this point just disengage. He isn’t interested in arguments at this point. For the record, she. And neither are you, I'm presenting arguments and you're going "BUT EVERYONE GETS PUNISHED  "But if you want to disengage, sure. I'm done if you both are.
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Aug 31, 2018 23:08
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Lessail posted:The whole point was that an institution can gain enough benefits during a cover up that it can withstand the blowback when it all comes to light. Penn State as a football school didn't go away and the benefits it gained were used to recover and extract concessions from the body that initially punished it. So if MSU gained benefits of being affiliated with US Gymnastics through Nasar, it takes a lot to wipe away what it gained. That actually makes sense when you say it like that. Thanks. That said, here's what I want to have happen now: The NCAA passes a bylaw that allows them to show-cause people who enable and cover these situations up. I thought they show-caused Briles but they didn't (he's so toxic now though that he effectively was). That's assuming they don't have the rule to do so.
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Aug 31, 2018 23:29
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CharlestheHammer posted:Sigh I will rengage if you address even one of my points and not handwave them away as they cause your entire point to collapse. You said even innocents get punished by the guilty party being punished by collateral damage, per se. I pointed out that the innocents in this case also include the victims, and I don't like that fact they also may get "punished" in this situation, and thus I can't support any broad stroke punishment. You did not counter this specific point or address it. I would like you to do so.
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Aug 31, 2018 23:39
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One last thing so we're on the same page: what punishment do you want the NCAA to do? e: and what would, ideally, this punishment accomplish (if it's anything beyond "making an example of the program")? iospace fucked around with this message at 00:33 on Sep 1, 2018 |
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Aug 31, 2018 23:59
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CharlestheHammer posted:The death penalty would be ideal, force them to basically restart the program from scratch like SMU was forced to do. It’s the easiest way to fix the program. Even with all the people involved with the coverup fired at this point (I believe at this point that is the case, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here)? The followup I have now: would you allow the program to be restarted immediately with fresh personnel, or would you require it to be restarted down the line, because the problem here is if you don't require a restart date, they're going to use that to axe the program wholesale and never bring it back.
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Sep 1, 2018 00:58
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CharlestheHammer posted:Restarted down the line is fine, also allow the students involved to transfer out if need be. If they use it as an excuse to axe the program that’s fine. They don’t have any particular need to have the program exist and it’s ultimately their choice. And this is where I'm going to agree to disagree. I don't agree with axing it wholesale, but if the death penalty were to be handed it down, I would want it to be maybe a year moratorium and then restarted (any longer and you're looking at Title IX suits). The year "off" would be used to find new staff. Obviously free transfer with the scholarship transferring (in effect, MSU would pay for them to go elsewhere), and those who decide to stay do not lose any years of eligibility. Again, I'm not sold on the death penalty, in that I feel it's too extreme, but I'm going to concede that you are, and whatever each other says here is not going to convince the other.
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Sep 1, 2018 01:11
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| # ¿ Apr 27, 2024 00:15 |
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You guys do realize that the death penalty is the last option the NCAA will use, right? It's not meant to be the first line. e: off of phone now: jit bull transpile posted:I can't help but feel like you've been moving the goalposts quite a bit, but let respond like this: I'm curious as to how I've been moving the goalposts (it annoys me when others do this, and I would like to avoid doing it myself). The first argument was over whether or not the NCAA has the purview to act on things like this. It doesn't. I agree it should, but I also understand that they weren't going to do poo poo in the first place. The second argument was over the assumption that if the NCAA did have the ability to act, what would that punishment be? I feel the death penalty is too harsh on the program after Nassar and his enablers have been fired. At this point you're putting the burden of the punishment on what victims remain at MSU over the actual enablers. I think they should be show-caused (lifetime) and the MSU program put on probation. If it happens again, then we can start talking death penalty. The death penalty is, as said above, meant to be the absolute last resort. quote:if you restart a program after only a year, how do you ensure that the wider university culture that has allowed the bad program to fester has been addressed? Many of the people at the edges (deans, athletic dept chairs outside of the specific sport, campus police, etc) are still going to be there. I believe this would lead to a "wait it out" attitude where the university has no need to actually seriously examine itself and correct its culture before rebuilding a program. I agree with the last point here, 100%, for what it's worth. Though I don't think whoever is at the helm of MSU at this point is interested in it, because he's a royal dickbag. He needs to go, but the board is doing nothing about it. I agree the whole program needs to be redone, and they largely have, same with US Gymnastics (at least from my observations). Correct me if they didn't severely overhaul the personnel in those orgs. The bullet points however, are good, and should be required as part any punishment regardless if the death penalty was applied or not. Hell, that should be done regardless of any punishment. The root problem is here is that by and large, most universities, regardless of where it happens or who does it, views sexual assault (and DV, for what it's worth) as a joke. Requiring the NCAA to try to fix that isn't going to work, in my opinion. This a problem that is both inside and outside of sports, and unless actual, real punishment starts happening to those universities for even outside sports cases, nothing is going to change, and lawmakers have shown no intention of changing it. I know this is going to be read as "well, nothing will change, might as well sit by and let it happen". That's not my intention. My intention is that unless we do something, nothing's going to change. Ok that was likely goalpost shifting right there, sorry. iospace fucked around with this message at 14:23 on Sep 1, 2018 |
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Sep 1, 2018 13:34
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