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Space Fish
Oct 14, 2008

The original Big Tuna.

"Why Oakland?"
That block was the site of one of Wakanda's greatest mistakes, committed by T'Challa's dad. The movie has a lot to say about reconciling the present and the past. The supercampus built there is one of a series, and T'Challa wants to show his sister where a tragedy occurred and will be healed.

I don't expect Super Advanced Africa to fix America's racism, but well-funded after school programs mentored by a prodigious genius in cutting-edge technology will move the needle a fair bit.

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DC Murderverse
Nov 10, 2016

"Tell that to Zod's snapped neck!"


The correct answer to "Why Oakland?"




double negative
Jul 7, 2003



Well aware of Oakland's background, my issue with the outreach center being there is that, while it I appreciated how it fit thematically, Wakanda is supposed to be in the immediate vicinity of fuckin' South Sudan, like, priorities, my king. Y'all been isolated for that long, maybe start with your neighbors, because obviously poo poo's been going down on your borders, as we saw in that jungle scene..


This movie certainly chafes against the requirements of being a blockbuster Marvel movie, but do you really think this movie is implying that the problems of Africa are solely, or even primarily of Africa's own creation? C'mon, now. The whole reason Killmonger's father ends up dying is because he's trying to foment a revolution for reasons that are (and are portrayed as) completely legitimate. Feels like you're way too hung up on Ross, a tertiary character, because you really want a representative for the white supremacy that this movie is basically taking for granted with that very first opening sequence. I wish it had more colonizer jokes, a deeper critique of a lot of the themes it touches upon, and frankly, no white characters, but I also know I'm 'bout to walk into a Marvel movie, with certain requirements, and characters who were preordained to appear before the director was chosen, and adjust my expectations accordingly. With that in mind, I got something that I could appreciate in a way I didn't expect

DC Murderverse
Nov 10, 2016

"Tell that to Zod's snapped neck!"


double negative posted:

Well aware of Oakland's background, my issue with the outreach center being there is that, while it I appreciated how it fit thematically, Wakanda is supposed to be in the immediate vicinity of fuckin' South Sudan, like, priorities, my king. Y'all been isolated for that long, maybe start with your neighbors, because obviously poo poo's been going down on your borders, as we saw in that jungle scene..

my bad, i just saw like three people call it LA and was phone-posting and I really liked bringing the Black Panther "back home" so to speak.

I'm sure they have literal trillions of dollars and massive amounts of tech to drop all around the world, i imagine if Nakia is disguising herself as a kidnapped girl to find and take care of the kidnappers that she knows where and how to put it best to use closer to home.

edit: In a completely unrelated note that I found a little funny, the final battle scene kinda strongly mirrors the final battle scene of Star Wars Episode 1. Space battle, ground battle with armies and transparent shields and individual battle "inside" between the main character and the villain including a moment where the fighting stops and they have to pace back and forth waiting for a wall to go down.

DC Murderverse fucked around with this message at Feb 16, 2018 around 05:01

garycoleisgod
Sep 27, 2004
Boo

Yes, I think you're right. It was probably too much to expect a marvel movie to buck expectations that much. Also, my assumption that the movie would deal with more white villains is affecting my judgement of the film. I still don't like the Ross character but I should let it go.

On a more positive note, M'Baku ruled. What a total bro.

DC Murderverse
Nov 10, 2016

"Tell that to Zod's snapped neck!"


garycoleisgod posted:

Yes, I think you're right. It was probably too much to expect a marvel movie to buck expectations that much. Also, my assumption that the movie would deal with more white villains is affecting my judgement of the film. I still don't like the Ross character but I should let it go.

On a more positive note, M'Baku ruled. What a total bro.

the sound design whenever he and his army started grunting was awesome, it really felt like the theater was surrounded

actually just all of the production values were really loving high (that Disney Budget got put to good use). Costuming, set design, sound design, music, cinematography, character design, all of that stuff was on point. I loved Shuri's lab, it was like Q's lab from a Bond movie but with this gorgeous African art all over. Actually the entire first third or so felt like an African Bond movie, especially the stuff in Korea. The future tech was also really creative.

Rand Brittain
Mar 24, 2013

"Go on until you're stopped."

That was a really good movie. It was either the best Marvel movie yet, or Winter Soldier was.

I think it's true that Killmonger overshadows T'Challa a bit, but to some degree I think that's because T'Challa spends a lot of time being silent and stoic and hurting himself. There are several occasions in the movie where he might have been able to turn things around if he'd been open and honest, but instead decided to stay silent, until he finally makes the decision to reverse course in the end.

Dexo
Aug 15, 2009

GarPax: "You Want it to be one way....but it's the other way."


lmao at anyone thinking Killmonger was right in anything but what the truths he said about imperialism.

That dude might as well be wearing an ahnk, as he is your typical hotepping rear end black dude. He doesn't actually want anything but himself at the top. He had no hesitation at throwing the black woman who was with him under the bus the second she became an inconvenience.

And i disagree that the villian in the movie isn't white. While Killmonger is black, everything about Killmonger's actions and strategy was nothing but the white man's playbook, he did exactly what the CIA and other countries do to destabilize countries.

Ross was whatever, they probably should have done more, with it, but I laughed hard at him like having no issues saying, "yeah no, this is totally how we overthrow regimes and poo poo, which we totally do btw"


Also re: the ending and the center in Oakland, It's not that big of a deal guys, unless you assume with the speech he gave to the UN that Wakanda isn't going to also help the African countries around them. They just don't like need to build an outreach center because the city is like right there in the middle of Africa.

Dexo fucked around with this message at Feb 16, 2018 around 05:33

Pigbuster
Sep 12, 2010



garycoleisgod posted:

On a more positive note, M'Baku ruled. What a total bro.

His city RULED, too, holy poo poo. I really wish we saw more than two rooms of it because that dark wood paneling + open-air design was just

Gonz
Dec 22, 2009

Jesus, did I say that? Or just think it? Was I talking? Did they hear me?


Movie was dope. I'm tired. More tomorrow.

I got this sweet rear end poster at the IMAX screening.

CelticPredator
Oct 11, 2013



These posters are going down hill. The last great one was Pacific Rim.

Also gently caress them for not letting me snag 'em at the lobby when it's over and no one wants them.

ungulateman
Apr 18, 2012
Hello I am a person doing a thing via buttons. It's amazing what electronic singnals traveling through space can accomplish.

Makes ya think.

Purple m&ms are the best.

Movie felt uncannily similar to man of steel for reasons I will expand on when I'm not phone posting

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
ASK ME ABOUT MY SELF-PUBLISHED WARHAMMER FANFICTION AND MY KNIFE COLLECTION


Kurzon posted:

Maybe to him the CIA is just a job; he's just a cog in the machine

That is literally the Nuremberg defence, my dude.

Yaws posted:

Give the villians motivations and goals to Black Panther and we'd have a loving dope blaxploitation movie.

As it is we have yet another toothless pro-capitalist pro-status quo dreck from the MCU. This poo poo is embarrassingly apolitical.

"Everything is fine, why don't you just want to carry on as is, orphaned, poverty stricken footsoldier of the military industrical complex?"

The movie was fine, as the entire MCU is, but when you remember that it's fuckin' Ryan Coogler spending 200 million dollars on a Black Panther movie, and think what that might have looked like with some teeth, you'll weep.

poptart_fairy posted:

Seeing this on Friday and I'm really excited for it.

Had a lot of "best MCU film ever!" comments about the movie, but that seems to be the case with literally all of the MCU movies soooo

I think that's a case of 'I hadn't seen this episode before, and now I have'

And if anyone wants to read some nauseating hyperbole,

"Some dipshit on Forbes posted:

Ryan Cooglerís Black Panther isnít just a darn good movie. It is a very good movie in a handful of ways that explicitly rebuts several of the ongoing stereotypes related to the Marvel Cinematic Universe. As such, its success wonít just be another feather in Marvelís cap. So, before we see if the Chadwick Boseman/Michael B. Jordan/Lupita Nyong'o/Danai Gurira/Daniel Kaluuya/Letitia Wright superhero spectacular can break a few records over its Fri-Mon opening weekend (it has $23.2 million overseas already), I wanted to note specifically how this artistic triumph and (presumed) commercial success changes the narrative right as Marvel reaches the end of its first long-form story.

1. Itís a filmmaker-driven movie.

There is a narrative at play arguing that the MCU is something of a producer-driven franchise, where Kevin Feige runs the show while the various writers and directors merely fill in the blanks in a filmmaker-by-committee process. Sure, there were squabbles during the making of Iron Man 2 and Avengers: Age of Ultron, and weíll never know how Edgar Wrightís Ant-Man would have played. But Marvel also gave James Gunn the keys to the car and let him run wild with Guardians of the Galaxy, while then letting Taika Waititi turn the Thor franchise from action dramas with comedy to a comedy with action.

Heck, it would be hard to argue that Iron Man 3 isnít a Shane Black movie through-and-through, or that Thor wasnít a Kenneth Branagh joint. Black Panther is a Ryan Coogler film that just happens to deal in the world of fantastical sci-fi and masked superheroes. TíChalla (Chadwick Boseman) shares traits with Michael B. Jordanís protagonists from Fruitvale Station and Creed. The themes of having to live up to a famously talented/gifted father or figuring out how to give the world what it requires from you will be familiar to fans of Cooglerís prior movies.


The inspirational images of black children cheering on a black hero (explicitly in Creed, implicitly in Black Panther) is something thatís going to age very well when we take stock of Cooglerís career in the decades to come. If the stereotypical MCU movie is akin to Tim Burtonís first Batman (40% studio/60% director), then this feels akin to Burtonís ďall mineĒ Batman Returns. Of course, I donít think Marvel will have to reverse course and make Black Panther 2 into a kind of Batman Forever of the franchise this time.

2. Itís deeply political.

I would argue that at least some of the huzzahs being thrown around for Black Panther are attributes that belong to most MCU movies, such as the notion of taking place in the real world, being about something substantive and being somewhat political or topical. But, in a world where no one got the subtexts in Attack of the Clones and then complained that Revenge of the Sith was too sledgehammer-obvious, I can only hope that the explicit topicality found in this newest MCU movie will lead folks to examine the rest of the MCU canon in a new light.

Pretty much every Phase One and Phase two MCU movie dealt with some aspect of post-9/11 America. The Iron Man trilogy dealing with the arms race and the need for foreign boogiemen while the Thor series dealt with disproportionate response and warmongering. Captain America presented an idealistic past-tense version of America, a (sadly timely) present-tense version of America and then climaxed with how two moral goods can conflict to the benefit of a greater evil, which led into Phase Three.

If Phase One and Phase Two operated in the shadow of George W. Bushís imperialistic adventures and Barack Obamaís drone warfare, then Phase Three will have to operate under the shadow of Donald Trumpís nationalism. Yes, both Captain America: Civil War and Batman v Superman turned out to be metaphors for the 2016 presidential election, but I digress. The very idea of a mega-budget superhero movie from Walt Disney, set in Africa, starring a mostly black cast and featuring a sympathetic villain (Jordan again) who essentially wants to rescue black men and women from the worldís racism is a political act in 2018.

The Ryan Coogler and Joe Robert Cole-penned film paints a complicated picture, whereby (minimal spoilers) our noble hero begins with a political stance awfully close to ďIíve got mine, so to hell with everyone else!Ē isolationism and our murdering villain wants to make like Nat Turner and save his people from global institutional genocide. The politics of Black Panther, including implicitly arguing that America was/is a kind of purgatory for young black men and women, are so overt that no one will be able to say that Marvel movies arenít about anything (aside from daddy issues) ever again. Marvel movies, the good ones and the bad ones, have always been both personal and political, even when the personal was political.

3. Itís a stand-alone story.

Yes, Black Panther was introduced in Captain America: Civil War and yes the events of that film play into this one. But, thanks to a few key flashbacks and plenty of past-tense exposition, Cooglerís movie will play just fine to folks who have never seen a Marvel Cinematic Universe film. This goes against the conventional wisdom about the MCU playing like glorified television episodes and merely existing to support and set up each other.

Again, I would argue that applies more to those wishing to copy the MCU model, but itís a notion that came about during Age of Ultron, as frankly, it played more like a season finale of a TV show than a stand-alone movie. That somewhat made sense in context, but the rest of the MCU Phase Two movies required only that you had seen (or somewhat knew about) The Avengers, which was a pretty safe bet since that film grossed $1.5 billion at the global box office and played to quite a few folks who had never seen Iron Man or Thor. Black Panther is, if anything, the most stand-alone MCU movie since Iron Man.

It contains zero other Avengers in its core narrative and doesnít care whether you recognize Andy Serkisís Age of Ultron baddie or Martin Freemanís Civil War bureaucrat. Even Guardians of the Galaxy had a goofy Thanos sequence that confused the heck out of my wife, while Thor: Ragnarok has a post-credit scene that seems to set up Infinity War and Spider-Man: Homecoming features Iron Man in a key supporting role and plays into Tonyís long-term character arc as a flawed mentor. Black Panther goes against the stereotype that all of the MCU movies merely exist to feed off of each other.

4. It's very different from the other Marvel movies.

Again, it's a little hard to argue that the studio that released Guardians of the Galaxy and Captain America: The Winter Soldier are essentially making copies of the same movie. But that reputation has stuck, if only because the superhero sub-genre does have some beats and tropes that tend to pop up in most of the entries. Nonetheless, Black Panther is unquestionably a different kind of Marvel Cinematic Universe movie, from its mostly-black cast to its roots in Afrofuturism to its attempts to be a drama first and a superhero action movie second.

Again, I have long argued that the MCU movies, the ones I like (Captain America: The First Avenger) and the ones I don't (Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2) tend to stand out from each other, which was arguably part of the point in the Phase Two commitment to genre appropriation. In a world where almost every studio has their stable of superhero movies and we seem to get a comic book adaptation once a month, the key to the health of these most reliable would-be blockbusters is making sure that they are all different from each other. Sure, the origin stories will always have similarities, just as Batman Begins, Iron Man and Spider-Man all share certain beats and tropes. But Black Panther feels so different from the rest of the pack, as did (respectively) Ant-Man or Iron Man 3, that it will be that much harder in the future to argue that all MCU movies are the same.

Epilogue:

There are other things to note about this likely financial triumph, such as its refusal to pander to white folks, its emphasis on drama and close-range violence over conventional fantasy action, it being another case of Marvel not going for the super-epic mid-air blow-out as a go-to third act climax, and that it has essentially given Ryan Coogler the same career path as was given to Tim Burton and Chris Nolan. But these thoughts and others can wait as the box office results drip in over the next few days. Oh, and I think its likely-to-be-huge opening weekend should put an end to the notion that movies about non-white heroes canít score overseas and that audiences are grappling with superhero fatigue.

You wonder why people like this don't just work directly for Disney, cut out the middle man.

Carlosologist
Oct 13, 2013

Revelry in the Dark


Killmonger was hotep as gently caress, I'm glad I'm not the only one who had that initial reaction

still though, Michael B. Jordan should take home hardware for that performance. What a job

CelticPredator
Oct 11, 2013



ungulateman posted:

Movie felt uncannily similar to man of steel for reasons I will expand on when I'm not phone posting

Wakanda kinda looked like Kyrpton

BrianWilly
Apr 24, 2007

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

Copypasting from BSS: I don't know what the early reviews were smoking when they said Killmonger was rote or one-dimensional or whatever. I thought he was compelling as gently caress. Most of the moments of this film that just knocked the wind right out of me came from him.

I do have lil' bits of nitpicks with this film (the succession system of Wakanda is just, ultimately...really loving dumb? Like you probably shouldn't be talking about how advanced and wise your people are when your monarchy is basically decided through blood sport and also it doesn't even follow any real line of succession but like, all your cousins and neighbors and probably the dude who sells cars a block or two away can just challenge your right to rule through fisticuffs so that's probably something y'all should look into fixing) but, man, this is definitely one of those movies that I wished would never end so that it would keep on taking my breath away over and over.

Also: "Don't scare me like that, colonizer!"

ungulateman posted:

Movie felt uncannily similar to man of steel for reasons I will expand on when I'm not phone posting
I dunno about Man of Steel, but I do feel like there's a sense of Black Panther being set up as a Superman sort of figure, not necessarily because of his power itself, but because of what that power will mean to the rest of the world. Out of all the Marvel superheroes, T'Challa may be the one who's able to affect the most real change. And his arc in this film is mostly about what sorts of change he actually wants to affect, and whether he himself is ready to shoulder the burden of affecting that change. Which is very Superman-esque.

And like Superman there is also a sense of what he's bringing being "too good to be true." I mean, I suppose Oakland in the Marvel universe is gotta get vibranium-laced playgrounds or whatever...but the real Oakland in our world, that I live fifteen minutes away from, isn't gonna all of a sudden have a hot king show up to fix the county. So like Superman, Black Panther ends up being a kind of idyllic "wouldn't-it-be-great-if?" scenario. And it would be great...but is it really possible or is it just a nice dream? Are enough of the right people going to be moved enough by the mere dream of this film to take enough action to turn that dream into reality?

BrianWilly fucked around with this message at Feb 16, 2018 around 08:27

Kurzon
May 10, 2013


BrianWilly posted:

the succession system of Wakanda is just, ultimately...really loving dumb? Like you probably shouldn't be talking about how advanced and wise your people are when your monarchy is basically decided through blood sport and also it doesn't even follow any real line of succession but like, all your cousins and neighbors and probably the dude who sells cars a block or two away can just challenge your right to rule through fisticuffs so that's probably something y'all should look into fixing
You don't need to spoiler this because we know this already from the comic books.

The only parallel I can think of in the real world is the Cult of the Birdman that the natives of Easter Island had before European contact. The natives held this competition where athletes would race to retrieve a bird egg from a neighboring island and present it intact to the priests. The winner's tribe would then get to manage the island's resources. It's the only example I know where power is awarded through a sporting competition.

But yeah, I actually think it's a bit insulting to think that an African kingdom would run on chimpanzee politics.

Kal-L
Jan 18, 2005

Heh... Spider-man... Web searches... That's funny. I should've trademarked that one. Could've made a mint.

Just saw the movie. It was great and Killmonger was a very compelling villain.

Kurzon posted:

You don't need to spoiler this because we know this already from the comic books.

The only parallel I can think of in the real world is the Cult of the Birdman that the natives of Easter Island had before European contact. The natives held this competition where athletes would race to retrieve a bird egg from a neighboring island and present it intact to the priests. The winner's tribe would then get to manage the island's resources. It's the only example I know where power is awarded through a sporting competition.

But yeah, I actually think it's a bit insulting to think that an African kingdom would run on chimpanzee politics.

I think it's more nuanced than that. When they go around asking the tribes if they're cool with T'Challa being king, it's implied that the leaders of each one are the ones who could challenge him, not just any low-level guy, precisely because they have the support of their tribe.

This comes again when Killmonger does it: first thing he does upon returning to Wakanda is secure the support of the River people by presenting Klaue's body. Then he further cements his right to challenge by declaring he's of royal blood. And of course T'Challa had to take the challenge, because if not, that would lead to having another situation like with M'Baku's tribe, where he's also seen by the other leaders as the guy who couldn't keep the River people at his side

henpod
Mar 7, 2008

Sir, we have located the Bioweapon.

Wasn't going to see this movie because for some reason I find Black Panther really boring as a character, but you guys seem to be liking it, so maybe I will

asecondduck
Feb 18, 2011

Wait. What the heck happened to the first duck?


BrianWilly posted:

the succession system of Wakanda is just, ultimately...really loving dumb? Like you probably shouldn't be talking about how advanced and wise your people are when your monarchy is basically decided through blood sport and also it doesn't even follow any real line of succession but like, all your cousins and neighbors and probably the dude who sells cars a block or two away can just challenge your right to rule through fisticuffs so that's probably something y'all should look into fixing

I got the impression that the trial by combat was a formality, at least for T'Challa. The practice existed as a check and balance, so that if a king became corrupt the tribes could throw warriors at them until one of them finally defeated/killed the corrupt king. The only tribe to contest T'Challa was the Mountain tribe, and they seemed to have legitimate beef with the monarchy, since they were ignored by the Wakandan rulers for hundreds of years. I don't think they intended to win, but instead remind him that they existed (and also let the moviegoers knew who they were).

I really liked the film. I have trouble ranking the Marvel movies on a number basis and basically have tiers for them: Really good, good, medicore. Black Panther is up there in the "really good" tier with Iron Man, Guardians and Ragnanok.

Marvel hasn't made a film that I would consider "bad", The Dark World had its moments (the portal fight is great) and Iron Man 2 isn't great in isolation but it works a lot better if you watch all three Iron Man films in a row.

asecondduck fucked around with this message at Feb 16, 2018 around 14:08

K. Waste
Feb 27, 2014

MORAL:
To the vector belong the spoils.


So all my de-colonial peeps on Facebook are seeing this movie, and the common denominator is that Kilmonger rules and this movie might be a fed counter-intelligence project.

Dexo
Aug 15, 2009

GarPax: "You Want it to be one way....but it's the other way."


COINTELPRO!

DeimosRising
Oct 17, 2005

°Hola SEA!


K. Waste posted:

So all my de-colonial peeps on Facebook are seeing this movie, and the common denominator is that Kilmonger rules and this movie might be a fed counter-intelligence project.

In line with what Dexo said earlier, this is exactly whatís wrong with much of the anti colonial/imperialist discourse. Just being anti American Empire doesnít make you good, personally or politically. This is how you end up unable to distinguish Hamas from the FLN, the FLN from the Viet Cong, etc.

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD
Sep 14, 2007

everything is yours


DeimosRising posted:

In line with what Dexo said earlier, this is exactly whatís wrong with much of the anti colonial/imperialist discourse. Just being anti American Empire doesnít make you good, personally or politically. This is how you end up unable to distinguish Hamas from the FLN, the FLN from the Viet Cong, etc.

Nobody likes Hamas.

MasterSitsu
Nov 23, 2013



I don't care much for the earthbound Marvel films carrying on from the first Avengers film. Namely Ultron, Winter Soldier, and Civil War. The ones with the geopolitical consequences. The themes that should be emerging from all of these global events regarding intervention (or lack thereof) are to me, so muted, in service of an otherwise pretty bland action movie. And Falcon, Vision, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, and now Black Panther - all of the next wave of Avenger Pals have not done much for me. Despite their best efforts, I find them either too stoic/militaristic or forced into very flat witty sidekick roles, and what I want is an emotional core, whether thats characters just bonding or something more fundamentally motivating. Killmonger didnt suuuck, but there was so much left on the table in this regard.

I thought given the nature of Wakanda and their tech that I might get something more fun akin to the cosmic Marvel films, which I enjoy, but unfortunately not.

Not mad, but disappointed. Good director, good lead actors. On paper I should be more into this, but I gradually zoned out into the "noticing all the dumb poo poo about the world building" space.

Lumpy the Cook
Feb 4, 2011

Gamers are goo-reat!


Martin Freeman's character and his whole subplot kinda ruined this movie singlehandedly for me. I mean, in light of the MANY instances of CIA interference throughout Africa in the last several decades- from coups in Ghana and the Congo, to their involvement in French oppression in Algeria, to their presence in Chad and Angola in the 80s, to the assistance they provided in identifying, capturing and imprisoning dissenters for the South African government in the Apartheid era, and even up to their more recent involvement in arming and training 'moderate rebels' in Libya who went on to destroy the country and turn it into a terrorist-funding slave market where black Africans are being kidnapped, rounded up and sold into slavery literally right now- (oh, not to mention all that work they did gathering intelligence and assisting the FBI against the actual Black Panther Party in America!) it seems really weird and distasteful for Disney and Marvel to put out a fanciful and benevolent portrayal of the CIA's presence in Africa.

Dexo
Aug 15, 2009

GarPax: "You Want it to be one way....but it's the other way."


The CIA wasn't represented as benevolent at all. Ross literally stated the bad poo poo they've done across the world.


He ends up helping them out, but it's as much because he's as hosed as they are if they lose.

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


Dexo posted:

The CIA wasn't represented as benevolent at all. Ross literally stated the bad poo poo they've done across the world.


He ends up helping them out, but it's as much because he's as hosed as they are if they lose.

That's the Marvel way too, though. Tony Stark is a blood-drenched scion of war but he had a sad once so now his good intentions are what matter.

Lib thinking 101 to be honest. Lets you hand-wave Obama dropping 25k bombs on the middle east his last year in office because, you know, he's trying to be a nice guy. It's how every media article describes America as "stumbling" into war or torture.

Anyway I liked this movie alright, I wish they had not done a couple of lazy things to make Killmonger worse and less sympathetic. They didn't trust their audience.

Dexo
Aug 15, 2009

GarPax: "You Want it to be one way....but it's the other way."


Except they make it clear that T'challa, Shuri or any of the others in Wakanda besides maybe Nakia,and that's mostly pity and thanks for taking a bullet for her though she would have been fine) actually trust him or value his opinion all that much, he gave them info on Killmonger and shot down some ships. He is constantly getting ignored and talked over.(scene with M'Baku where he was trying to talk some dumb poo poo and they just chanted was great)

The movie p much showed that T'challa and Wakanda wouldnt hesitate to undermine whatever CIA guy thought was the right course of action to perform their own justice


Killmonger was sympathetic, I get his frustration, I get his anger, and he's justified in being pissed. Not to say violence isn't often(always?) nessecary. I just don't think someone who is using the tactics of an imperialist with no regard for people's lives is going to lead to actual change. It's just going to at best be changing who's on top.


Dexo fucked around with this message at Feb 16, 2018 around 16:49

Boris Galerkin
Dec 17, 2011



Just watched it today.

I asked the other day if I should go for 2D or 3D and I would recommend sticking with 2D because gently caress those plastic piece of poo poo glasses. I mean I have bad vision to begin with (mild astigmatism) but those glasses just make everything worse.

I don't think Killmonger was wrong with what he wanted to do, but maybe he was going about it the wrong way. I mean, it seemed like he just wanted to subjugate the rest of the world under his/black rule. Which isn't any better than what the Europeans did and T'Challa totally points that out when they were fighting.

But it does make me wonder, where was Wakanda when the slave ships were being loaded? Where were they when white men were invading and colonizing? Where were they when random African warlord #37 was capturing and enslaving the people from some other African tribe?

Are we just meant to believe that when Africans were being mass enslaved and shipped around the entire world to be worked to death, that the Wakandans were totally okay with it and stood idly just because it didn't personally affect them?


e:

I think the funniest lines for me were the don't scare me colonizer part, and also the first end credit scene when T'Challa said something like "[good people] build bridges while [idiots] build walls." I like to imagine he was talking about Trump.

e2:

Speaking of end credit scenes, there are two of them. The first one is definitely worth watching just for the animation they play during the credits before the scene starts. The second end credit scene was a bit meh. I'm not really into the MCU so the second and final end credit scene meant absolutely gently caress all to me. I probably need to just Google it to see what the big deal is.

Boris Galerkin fucked around with this message at Feb 16, 2018 around 17:12

Dexo
Aug 15, 2009

GarPax: "You Want it to be one way....but it's the other way."


Boris Galerkin posted:

Just watched it today.

I asked the other day if I should go for 2D or 3D and I would recommend sticking with 2D because gently caress those plastic piece of poo poo glasses. I mean I have bad vision to begin with (mild astigmatism) but those glasses just make everything worse.

I don't think Killmonger was wrong with what he wanted to do, but maybe he was going about it the wrong way. I mean, it seemed like he just wanted to subjugate the rest of the world under his/black rule. Which isn't any better than what the Europeans did and T'Challa totally points that out when they were fighting.

But it does make me wonder, where was Wakanda when the slave ships were being loaded? Where were they when white men were invading and colonizing? Where were they when random African warlord #37 was capturing and enslaving the people from some other African tribe?

Are we just meant to believe that when Africans were being mass enslaved and shipped around the entire world to be worked to death, that the Wakandans were totally okay with it and stood idly just because it didn't personally affect them?


In the comics, they made a deal not to interfere with the slave trade and they would not be attacked. The entire movie was about the mistakes of the past generations and their secrets and how you have to forge your own path forward.

But Yes, the Wakandans historically are and have been extremely isolationist, like shown in the movie so much so that the king would kill his own brother with little hesitation to maintain their isolation.

This is shown as a massive flaw.

My favorite part is easily the poo poo talking Killmonger was doing in the throne room.

"Hey Auntie "

Boris Galerkin
Dec 17, 2011



Dexo posted:

In the comics, they made a deal not to interfere with the slave trade and they would not be attacked. The entire movie was about the mistakes of the past generations and their secrets and how you have to forge your own path forward.
In the movie they show that Wakanda 's technology was leaps ahead of what the rest of the world had. The General lady even joked about how guns were so primitive. Are you telling me that the Wakandans could not have defeated whatever colonial European power using "primitive" weapons like single shot rifles or whatever the British/Dutch/Spanish/etc had? Because the movie goes out of the way to show that they were the most technologically advanced people on earth, so I find it hard to believe that that Wakanda circa 1600s were not more advanced than the Europeans. But if that's what the comic books say then wow that makes absolutely no sense at all.

Dexo posted:

But Yes, the Wakandans historically are and have been extremely isolationist, like shown in the movie so much so that the king would kill his own brother with little hesitation to maintain their isolation.

This is shown as a massive flaw.


I don't think that's what happened though. Didn't the king want to arrest his brother and bring him in to be tried in court, but his brother pulled a gun on the other guy and the king acted out of defense? I can't blame him for killing his brother spur of the moment to save and protect someone.

I thought the massive flaw was the part where they just left the kid to grow up all alone.

davidspackage
May 16, 2007

The world no longer makes sense, but it is far more interesting.

Fun Shoe

Ross definitely has a clear change of heart where at first he's quarelling with T'Challa over who gets to have (jacked as gently caress) Klaw, but in the end he risks his life to stop the weapon transports (which struck me as a little overdramatic, as if the survival of the world or Wakanda's secret hinged on that one last craft escaping). All the same I'd have preferred he cleared the stage after Klaw's escape.

Also with how hellbent Wakanda is about staying hidden, you'd think allowing a white guy in would be kind of a mortal sin.

Dexo
Aug 15, 2009

GarPax: "You Want it to be one way....but it's the other way."


Boris Galerkin posted:

In the movie they show that Wakanda 's technology was leaps ahead of what the rest of the world had. The General lady even joked about how guns were so primitive. Are you telling me that the Wakandans could not have defeated whatever colonial European power using "primitive" weapons like single shot rifles or whatever the British/Dutch/Spanish/etc had? Because the movie goes out of the way to show that they were the most technologically advanced people on earth, so I find it hard to believe that that Wakanda circa 1600s were not more advanced than the Europeans. But if that's what the comic books say then wow that makes absolutely no sense at all.


I don't think that's what happened though. Didn't the king want to arrest his brother and bring him in to be tried in court, but his brother pulled a gun on the other guy and the king acted out of defense? I can't blame him for killing his brother spur of the moment to save and protect someone.

I thought the massive flaw was the part where they just left the kid to grow up all alone.


They probably could have but they would rather just be left alone. So yeah it p much was FYGM. The movie does go out of it's way to show this is a bad thing.

And yeah you're right about that last point.

Dexo
Aug 15, 2009

GarPax: "You Want it to be one way....but it's the other way."


davidspackage posted:

Ross definitely has a clear change of heart where at first he's quarelling with T'Challa over who gets to have (jacked as gently caress) Klaw, but in the end he risks his life to stop the weapon transports (which struck me as a little overdramatic, as if the survival of the world or Wakanda's secret hinged on that one last craft escaping). All the same I'd have preferred he cleared the stage after Klaw's escape.

Also with how hellbent Wakanda is about staying hidden, you'd think allowing a white guy in would be kind of a mortal sin.


T'challa probably has some leeway being the Black Panther and heir appearant. And Nakia, his love asking him to save the dude who took a bullet for her.

Winter Solider is probably a tougher ask but it seems like he was kept more of a secret to the Royal Family

achillesforever6
Apr 23, 2012

#RXTREVOLUTIONFOREVER6


Dexo posted:

COINTELPRO!
poo poo this must mean liking Twin Peaks is bad because the good guys are FBI agents

Gorman Thomas
Jul 24, 2007


Tbf it's not like there's a 60 year history of the FBI going into Washington and enacting violent regime change for profit

Dexo
Aug 15, 2009

GarPax: "You Want it to be one way....but it's the other way."


Gorman Thomas posted:

Tbf it's not like there's a 60 year history of the FBI going into Washington and enacting violent regime change for profit

Yeah like I'm not out here saying anything other than I don't think movie was glorifying or saying the CIA are the good guys.

Carlosologist
Oct 13, 2013

Revelry in the Dark


it was pretty explicit that Ross said Killmonger was lifting plays right out of the CIA book, so he knew what was going on

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Saturniid19
Aug 1, 2006
brought to you by North Central Positronics

I have been watching the MCU movies with my kids and we are caught up through Dr. Strange. Should we go see Black Panther this weekend or should we wait until after watching Guardians 2, Spider-man, and Thor 3? Are there any connections to the other movies that would throw off the build up to Infinity War if seen out of order?

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