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Steve2911 posted:I mean, did you expect the film to flash forward a decade and show how Wakanda's impacted the rest of the world? I don't know. I'm not the film's screenwriter. The film's screenwriter, however, wrote a situation where an African king is confronted with the staggering inequality of the world, specifically the US, and his response is to build an outreach centre in the US, in accordance with its laws and with the approval of a CIA agent. So, maybe be in a better thought out film? One that doesn't imply that the oppression of the Black Diaspora is somehow the fault of a small African nation?
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Feb 18, 2018 23:29
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I saw it. I was blown away. It felt like a dream because I never thought this style of movie would exist. There hasn't been a movie with its budget, marketing, and profile be so thoroughly black. Black Panther is like the Obama inauguration all over again. If you don't feel something than you haven't paid attention to the struggle in America. The plot dealt with a timely issue in the diaspora. The characters were varied. It had fantasy and sci-fi. I think Black Panther will be the the bar for future black films, at least non-dramas. Pretty much everyone I know has seen it or planning. 3D sucked.
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Feb 18, 2018 23:38
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temple posted:The plot dealt with a timely issue in the diaspora.
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Feb 18, 2018 23:40
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Snowman_McK posted:his response is to build an outreach centre in the US, in accordance with its laws and with the approval of a CIA agent. That's like one thing? And intended to be a first step. He was also shown to take in refugees and offer help at the UN. If you wanted him to go to war with the US well... That was never going to happen, was it?
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Feb 18, 2018 23:41
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Snowman_McK posted:The issue of princes returning to Africa and trying to distribute superweapons?
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Feb 18, 2018 23:42
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Steve2911 posted:If you wanted him to go to war with the US well... That was never going to happen, was it? And having you say that about a film called 'Black Panther' is kind of loving depressing isn't it? Also, about the 'first step,' do you not sort of see the problem with arguing for incremental change working within the system in the present day US?
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Feb 18, 2018 23:46
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It was a happy ending for the CIA who now knows about Wakandas tech, weapons, and resources which historically has never resulted in anything bad happening.
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Feb 18, 2018 23:48
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I think if the post credits scene was a small 'flash forward' or something yes it woulda helped the movie a lot. Instead it literally ends with ~teach the inner city to code~ and then...I guess they're still lying to the UN? Like who are they even helping? Is it literally just a US/Wakanda thing, was that sly smile supposed to mean he's gonna show the whole UN what he's got? Maybe a jump ahead to show the good work Wakanda is doing and all, something to show they're on the global stage as a source of progress to contrast Killmonger? You kinda can't just end it on 'eh maybe we'll teach em to code'! Also yea it's never not gonna be gross when a movie called Black Panther ends with a white CIA agent being their best friend.
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Feb 18, 2018 23:54
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The lengths morons are going to willfully ignore what the movie is doing and saying in this topic just to piss and moan about the MCU is astounding.
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Feb 18, 2018 23:57
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RevolverDivider posted:The lengths morons are going to willfully ignore what the movie is doing and saying in this topic just to piss and moan about the MCU is astounding. What was the film doing and saying?
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Feb 19, 2018 00:01
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This movie started on the wrong foot for me since it's an action-scene starring a guy in a black-costume at night with a shaky camera. The last fight scene is a bit of a miss as well since it's two guys wearing the same black outfit fighting in a dark mine-shaft. Really I liked the all non-action drama-scenes because they're obviously more the director's forte. Only the fight scenes at the waterfall worked for me because they were simple; just two shirtless dudes duking it out. I wish the producers of these superhero-movies would hire out these sequences to REAL-action-directors and give us cleaner, easier to follow yet intense action scenes like The Raid, only with less blood and faces on hot-plates. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orNKptscG0A
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Feb 19, 2018 00:01
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in the grand cultural sense the movie is a net positive as it's more mainstream acceptance of diversity in these stories and all and that's good but like most things getting mainstream acceptance it usually has to come at the cost of saying 'now it's ok, we're not like those RADICALS'.
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Feb 19, 2018 00:02
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sexpig by night posted:in the grand cultural sense the movie is a net positive as it's more mainstream acceptance of diversity in these stories and all and that's good but like most things getting mainstream acceptance it usually has to come at the cost of saying 'now it's ok, we're not like those RADICALS'. This is sort of what frustrates me: in terms of representation, the film is a gigantic step forward. I never expected to see 'afro-futurism' in the broader cultural dialogue. In many respects, it's absolutely top notch. Even the plotting, as far as being a film plot, is structurally sound It's just the film's statement when you remember that Africa, Oakland and the CIA all really exist, is muddled at best. I have this feeling that there's a tendency for film's about under-represented groups to both try and do a bit too much because you don't know how long it'll be before you get to make another(there was enough plot in Black Panther for at least two movies, maybe three) and also face far too much scrutiny, since a lot of the weight of representation falls on too few films and shows.
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Feb 19, 2018 00:08
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Saw this opening night in Oakland, had no idea that connection was gonna be there which was awesome. Everyone was super into it.
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Feb 19, 2018 00:13
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also to be clear the movie was loving awesome and easily one of the best MCU products, everyone's performance was great and the visuals were fantastic. You can have philosophical issues with a product you enjoy.
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Feb 19, 2018 00:20
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sexpig by night posted:also to be clear the movie was loving awesome and easily one of the best MCU products, everyone's performance was great and the visuals were fantastic. You can have philosophical issues with a product you enjoy. The whole sequence in the Casino is terrific, and I really wanted more of African James Bond telling a CIA agent to gently caress off.
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Feb 19, 2018 00:30
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I'm pretty meh about it but it was solid. Chadwick was very subdued. The humor I thought worked well. Michael B Jordan was great and full of passion and I thought Klaw was awesomely entertaining as if it was all a rollercoaster adventure. Okoye/Dora Milaje was cool, Lupita was awesome, and so was Shuri. Those three were very natural and brought life to the movie. I liked the scenes in the mountains with M'Baku, that despite rivalry, they had respect for things. The effects, frankly, kind of sucked, and I didn't think Wakanda had a great grandeur but it was okay and the sets were limited. I felt some of the tribal elements were kind of awkward, the chest bobbing during the trial by combat, but it was like they wanted to blend the history with modern and futuristic so it kind of felt a bit off and not cohesive in vision/design. I'm almost okay they didn't reference the Soul Gem allowing them to talk to their dead but that's obvious what that is. I did like the panthers representing the elder dead Kings. The overall story arc was good. It was borne out of something complex and admitted the issues of sins past and what needed to be done for the future. I think the proper viewing sequence is Captain America: Civil War -> Black Panther -> Coming to America.
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Feb 19, 2018 00:31
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Snowman_McK posted:The whole sequence in the Casino is terrific, and I really wanted more of African James Bond telling a CIA agent to gently caress off. Yea the casino scene was way too rushed feeling for how good it was. Also, we need an M'Baku solo spin-off from this, come on Netflix.
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Feb 19, 2018 00:43
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Snowman_McK posted:And having you say that about a film called 'Black Panther' is kind of loving depressing isn't it? My impression is that this film would be a failure to you unless it actually showed them fixing systemic inequality at the end. Which, while I would be interested how they accomplished that myself, I'm perfectly satisfied seeing the first steps being taken. The film concludes with the cardinal sin of Wakanda's ruling family being put right. T'challa is not abandoning the little boys in Oakland like his father did Erik. He is putting the resources of his nation behind making the world a better place for them. He is announcing to the world that Wakanda is there to help them all forge a new path together. What will come of this remains to be seen, but it certainly ends on the idea that there is hope for the future. I'm excited to see where they take this in the inevitable sequels.
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Feb 19, 2018 00:44
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I don't think it had to be FIXED but seeing them do literally anything about it beyond 'let's build an out reach center here soon' would have helped yea. Having Killmonger be a revolutionary with an agenda means we need to see T'Challa's agenda succeed as the more just and moral one in the story. We never really see that payoff even in the little post-credits scene, so we're just kinda left with 'well, Killmonger at least got poo poo going before he got train/claw murdered' vs 'sometime soon we'll teach these kids about technology' which is a noble goal but...why can't we just see it? I don't think it needs to end with some saccharine 'and that's how Wakanda fixed racism' but why not a final scene of them IN the outreach center passing by young black American kids learning about Wakanda to contrast with the opening 'tell me about home' stuff? You can still have T'Challa there talking about how the center was built on the site of his father's greatest failure and all, just...be inspirational? It's a loving super hero movie, have a goal other than 'some day soon we'll share our magic space metal with the CIA'?
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Feb 19, 2018 00:49
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The problem is that they went too hard on the advanced technology. If it wasn't a sci fi paradise with perfect healthcare and energy weapons and free hovercars then the decision to remain isolated would seem less insulting to the rest of the world.
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Feb 19, 2018 00:54
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Z. Autobahn posted:Also the point of the “WHAT ARE THOSE” line isn’t to make a reference for a gags’s sake, it’s to establish that Shuri is the kind of dork who makes Vine references in her super-lab. Same with M’baku’s vegeterian joke. That’s actually one of the things I liked most about it compared to the MCU’s typical quip-a-minute style, that the jokes were all humanizing elements grounded in the characters personalities and not just “oh no put a joke here because sincerity is uncomfortable” I agree. The jokes felt borne out of character than dumbass quips that could have come out of anyone's mouth. The supporting cast had good life and sincerity to them.
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Feb 19, 2018 00:57
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wakanda didn't cause the world's problems so idk why they have to solve the world's problems. why not make a movie showing america stop oppressing black people? 
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Feb 19, 2018 01:00
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Z. Autobahn posted:Also the point of the “WHAT ARE THOSE” line isn’t to make a reference for a gags’s sake, it’s to establish that Shuri is the kind of dork who makes Vine references in her super-lab. Same with M’baku’s vegeterian joke. That’s actually one of the things I liked most about it compared to the MCU’s typical quip-a-minute style, that the jokes were all humanizing elements grounded in the characters personalities and not just “oh no put a joke here because sincerity is uncomfortable” drat they really have a what are those line in this movie That’s pretty wack
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Feb 19, 2018 01:44
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Gatts posted:I agree. The jokes felt borne out of character than dumbass quips that could have come out of anyone's mouth. The supporting cast had good life and sincerity to them. yea I normally hate 'oh look how clever this kid is they're just so smart and goofy and quirky' characters but I love Shuri in the comics and her actress nails her in the movie. Everyone clearly was having a good time with their roles, I have no idea who was how 'big' a fan of the comics and all but basically anyone with meaningful screen time clearly was trying hard to nail the character as a living being rather than just a comic character.
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Feb 19, 2018 01:46
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I have a friend who's convinced the "Don't freeze" line is referencing the Ugandan Knuckles meme.
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Feb 19, 2018 01:54
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Another thing that struck me leaving the film. Wakanda makes more sense than other places in comics. Any wakandan could be black panther, T'Challa is him because of his royality. But all Wakandans enjoy their technology and gifts because black panther's power is the power of his civilization. So, his powers and technology are pretty standard for super heros, its just expanded to include all citizens. This places the rest of the comic heroes in a bind. Why doesn't Stark share his technology? Why aren't the avengers ending world hunger? I know the MCU tries to deal with these issues but it comes off as hypocritical to criticize Wakanda for not sharing when the rest of the heroes are fine keeping their powers and tech to themselves.
temple fucked around with this message at 03:18 on Feb 19, 2018 |
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Feb 19, 2018 02:01
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:My impression is that this film would be a failure to you unless it actually showed them fixing systemic inequality at the end. Which, while I would be interested how they accomplished that myself, I'm perfectly satisfied seeing the first steps being taken. Or, just not directly allude to it repeatedly while doing nothing to change the very horrifying status quo, where 1 in 9 young black men are in prison, for instance, or where there is a significant, measurable gap in life expectancy based on race. Again, this is a film where a character called BLACK PANTHER works alongside a member of the American intelligence community against a orphaned, impoverished black kid who pulled himself up by his bootstraps. The ending is about as good an ending as we could get from the plot that precedes it. The fix is in the film leading up to it, not the ending itself. Killmonger should not have been an out and out villain (you can argue about how complicated he is, but the narrative path is always about confronting him and stopping him, not redeeming him) the loving CIA agent shouldn't have been a good guy (which he is, unless you want to demonstrate a scene where is not) The victim of oppression shouldn't have immediately become the oppressor. Don't have a film where its implied the continued suffering of black people only happens because an African nation with-holds help. Stuff like that. Again, the film is fine in a vacuum where Oakland, the US, Africa and the CIA all don't exist in their current form, but the idea that this film is making a statement is loving laughable.
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Feb 19, 2018 02:02
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I loved it. Why is this forum always such a poo poo show
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Feb 19, 2018 02:03
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Samara posted:I loved it. Why is this forum always such a poo poo show Sometimes people forget the difference in fact vs opinion then feel the need to post for a few weeks about a movie they didn't like.
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Feb 19, 2018 02:04
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Movie ruled. Colonizer BBS divided on if it sucked or not.
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Feb 19, 2018 02:05
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There's a sense that Wakanda might not actually know how bad the problems of the world had become beyond some broad strokes insipidies of "Oh all those outsiders sure are backwards not like us noble Wakandans" or whatever. Again, it's no coincidence that every character in this film who actually lived outside of Wakanda -- that's N'Jobu, Killmonger, and Nakia -- wanted Wakanda to step out and fix problems. Erik Stevens in particular is not just a product of the outside world or a product of Wakanda, but specifically a product of Wakanda's negligence to the outside world. T'Challa being confronted with this person is him literally being beat over the head with this outside problems/Wakanda's negligence to the point that he can't ignore it anymore. His arcs in both Civil War and this film are essentially him being stubbornly dismissive of some easy-to-see truths, and then eventually finding clarity through opposition against those truths.
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Feb 19, 2018 02:09
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Michael B Jordan is a very handsome man.
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Feb 19, 2018 02:15
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Snowman_McK posted:What was the film doing and saying? When you are in control of a powerful and wealthy nation, you should use that power to help people. This is not that hard to figure out, people.
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Feb 19, 2018 02:20
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Spacebump posted:Sometimes people forget the difference in fact vs opinion then feel the need to post for a few weeks about a movie they didn't like. There's no one here who's forgotten that difference, dickhead. Deadulus posted:Michael B Jordan is a very handsome man. This is true. He also looks like he killed and ate the version of himself in Creed. He is loving massive. BrianWilly posted:There's a sense that Wakanda might not actually know how bad the problems of the world had become Become? The oppression of black people is not a new phenomenon, and the prologue specifically depicts the slave trade. The Great African War and the Belgian Congo happened more or less on their doorstep. SatansBestBuddy posted:When you are in control of a powerful and wealthy nation, you should use that power to help people. And if this message wasn't played through the filter of an African nation, whose leader works alongside the CIA, in a franchise that also features Tony Stark (what was the last thing he did to help people? And how much difference did it make), it would not be as troublesome as it is. Yes, the message is very obviously 'do good things, stop bad things' but ignoring the specifics is the thing that requires one to be pretty loving dense. Snowman_McK fucked around with this message at 02:29 on Feb 19, 2018 |
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Feb 19, 2018 02:23
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Snowman_McK posted:And if this message wasn't played through the filter of an African nation A fake utopian nation, which is also in Africa. I feel that it being both a fantasy nation and a peaceful utopia are more important that it being African, ie if this was a secret fake Asian nation revealing itself to help the world the basic message would be the same, it's the context that would be different. quote:whose leader works alongside the CIA One member, unofficially, and it's somebody he only learns to trust after said agent helps save his girlfriends life. We also don't know to what degree it even matters, since they reveal Wakanda's technology at the end anyway, so even if the CIA were informed they had maybe a week with that knowledge before the rest of the world found out. quote:in a franchise that also features Tony Stark Who isn't mentioned or consider at all at any point in the film? And who also isn't the king of a nation. quote:it would not be as troublesome as it is. This reads more like you're trying to find ways to make it troublesome than it actually being so. quote:Yes, the message is very obviously 'do good things, stop bad things' but ignoring the specifics is the thing that requires one to be pretty loving dense. But you're only cherry picking the negative points, yes there is more complexity to the issues at large but I don't know how you'd expect a loving Marvel Movie to address any of those points? The closest they came to political discourse was arguing over who had custody of Klaw, did you really expect they'd have a meeting to discuss how to deal with the CIA or which countries will get outreach centres or the degree to which they share technology with the world? Like, I get what you're saying, but I also have no idea why any of it detracts from the overall sentiment of the movie?
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Feb 19, 2018 02:52
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Ritual combat seems a poor way to appoint the head of the executive. Abolish the monarchy, proportional representation with certain seats being tribal, others directly elected. Minister of Defence M'baku replaces all weapons with really long sticks. Minister of Culture that dude with the lip plate advocates everyone wear his great suits.
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Feb 19, 2018 03:14
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Aurubin posted:Ritual combat seems a poor way to appoint the head of the executive. I'd prefer a dictatorship of the proletariat tbh
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Feb 19, 2018 03:16
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SatansBestBuddy posted:A fake utopian nation, which is also in Africa. I feel that it being both a fantasy nation and a peaceful utopia are more important that it being African, ie if this was a secret fake Asian nation revealing itself to help the world the basic message would be the same, it's the context that would be different. quote:One member, unofficially, and it's somebody he only learns to trust after said agent helps save his girlfriends life. We also don't know to what degree it even matters, since they reveal Wakanda's technology at the end anyway, so even if the CIA were informed they had maybe a week with that knowledge before the rest of the world found out. Also, yes, he's only one character, so is M'Baku, who is absolutely representative of his people. And what makes you so sure he was there unofficially? He was in South Korea officially, and then was injured. He didn't go off the grid or anything. quote:Who isn't mentioned or consider at all at any point in the film? And who also isn't the king of a nation. quote:This reads more like you're trying to find ways to make it troublesome than it actually being so. quote:But you're only cherry picking the negative points, yes there is more complexity to the issues at large but I don't know how you'd expect a loving Marvel Movie to address any of those points? The closest they came to political discourse was arguing over who had custody of Klaw, did you really expect they'd have a meeting to discuss how to deal with the CIA or which countries will get outreach centres or the degree to which they share technology with the world? And no, I don't expect them to address them in any real way, which is why i'm mystified that they brought them up. quote:Like, I get what you're saying, but I also have no idea why any of it detracts from the overall sentiment of the movie? Snowman_McK fucked around with this message at 03:22 on Feb 19, 2018 |
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Feb 19, 2018 03:18
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If I can nitpick about something other than if the message of the movie was effective or not; everyone's using energy swords and capes with force fields in them, and the Jabari show up with shillelaghs. Just made me chuckle a bit.
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Feb 19, 2018 03:20
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