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Y'know, I'm disappointed the movie didn't have a shot at the end of a viking funeral for Killmonger.
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Feb 22, 2018 15:03
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On reflection, destroying the transports delivering Wakandan weapons to deep cover agents with orders to use and distribute them would probably be pretty important, because otherwise the rest of the world's first impression of the true nature of Wakanda would be black ops fomenting revolutions and wrecking poo poo with super-advanced technology. And the ritual challenge thing seems like something where on paper it's got problems but someone who wins the fight and isn't popular isn't going to stay king for long; Killmonger just won over the military and had a legitimate claim to the throne. That and I imagine it's expected for the current Black Panther to train a successor to eventually take over when they get too old for it.
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Feb 25, 2018 15:19
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Dexo posted:It is an affront to fine upstanding lightskinned black men. Is the joke being that's usually the opposite of how it goes down? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRfDgnapUAw
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Feb 26, 2018 14:40
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Interesting that Ross is exactly the kind of person they don't want to know about, much less bring to Wakanda; a trained spy who is obligated to serve the best interests of his country first and give America all the information and advantages it can get. But he does save the life of a Wakandan without hesitating, and with his life saved in turn, he provides them with useful information on Killmonger, which provides valuable insights into his character and tactics to both the characters and audience, on top of his contributions in the battle. (Seems useful given it seemed like the entire military took Killmonger's side, while the royal guard immediately took T'Challa's. Does seem implied, despite friendliness between them and their leaders possibly being lovers, there's some interservice rivalry between them that boils over into open conflict pretty quickly. And I imagine the Wakandan military gets pretty drat bored with no real wars to fight where they can bring their full armament to bear, though they seem well practiced.) A lot of Wakanda's xenophobia is probably justified; as merely a small African country, they'd have seen foreigners near and far who'd invade, conquer, exploit, swindle, and enslave them given a chance, and even with all their advanced technology, the rest of the world has the sheer volume to threaten them, and is catching up steadily. (not even counting the superhumans) Their big fear is that if the rest of the world discovers Wakanda's true nature, they'll immediately invade with everything they have to plunder that wealth for themselves. (and Killmonger's plan probably would make that even worse) T'Challa is already taking a huge enough risk opening up to the world with philanthropy, who knows how things might go. (especially with the next big alien invasion around the corner) Also, don't know if it's been mentioned, but 'White Wolf' is actually the name of a Wakandan character from the comics.
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Feb 27, 2018 15:44
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Listen bud, he's got radioactive blood.
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Feb 28, 2018 23:45
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Baron Porkface posted:I just realized another angle to this- Shuri gave Ross the job that involved no-poo poo killing Wakandans without looking them in the eye, as opposed to honorbound melee combat where Wakandans are known for pulling punches (I doubt more than 20 people die in the ground battle). She gets the American to wage war like an American while the Wakandans fight in their own way.
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Mar 1, 2018 02:53
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got any sevens posted:Maybe coogler is saying with the ending of BP that the only way black men in America irl can get ahead is by latching on to wealthy benefactors with an agenda. Its very cynical. I guess thats what coogler did by taking disney's money. Is he wrong?
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Mar 1, 2018 05:03
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It might not have been pure vibranium. But in any case, who says it didn't? It isn't specified when the meteorite crashed.
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Mar 1, 2018 15:18
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Plus, they're in a world with the Avengers, Asgardians and such, super powered total war anyone? The best Wakanda could hope for is to survive.
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Mar 2, 2018 03:53
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Colonialism isn't "fighting killing raping". Colonialism is the subjugation and exploitation of peoples and regions by more powerful nations. You're right, it's "fighting killing raping and also stealing".
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Mar 2, 2018 14:42
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Hard to say what that outreach might be, though reminds me of Tony Stark's ill-defined scholarship thing. Pretty amusing to have him set up a charity mission for the poor in the United States of America. Teaching urban poor kids how to work Vibranium? Reminded of some discussion of Wakanda's living standards and culture; a Wakandan might argue that it's specifically because of their strong connections to their roots and social cohesion that they have such a high living standard. (I do like that you see different tribes, aesthetics and religions among the Wakandans) However, it seems like they've lived in relative peace and stability so long that they haven't had to develop checks and balances, and being able to challenge for the throne by combat is all well and good when you've got a family line that's the Marvel counterpart to Batman, but then you get someone with legitimate claim who's better at fighting than at ruling... I'm oddly finding comparison to The Phantom, the other African-based superhero, who has some iffy elements but was still kinda amazingly progressive, and lives and operates in a modern African country where he works with the government and helps develop infrastructure and organisation (including the Jungle Patrol, basically a wilderness police force) and otherwise doing far more for his country in tangible ways than just punching criminals. (though plenty of that too)
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Mar 2, 2018 15:10
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Probably going to be a wasted opportunity, but would be interesting to see T'Challa and Thor meet, and a comparison of Wakanda and the Asgardian refugees. On that note, Star-Lord's reaction to how much Earth has changed. He might find something in common with Steve.
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Mar 2, 2018 16:54
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On further thought, getting weird that I think One Piece had a more nuanced and three-dimensional take on racial discrimination in the context of a history of slavery and atrocities, conflicting approaches to liberation or reconciliation and the horrible effects that internalised trauma and hatred has on people.
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Mar 3, 2018 03:27
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There's a lot you can do with just money; it's mentioned that legal defense funds and other such services are common with such outreach centres. Quite possibly medical services too, you wouldn't even need Vibranium technobabble to help a lot of people in the impoverished hellhole of the USA, though that might help. Also might have some amusing side effects, like cops being a little less trigger-happy around black people knowing they might be a citizen of a superpower ruled by black Batman with tech that makes Tony Stark look crude. We can dream.
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Mar 3, 2018 06:48
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In-character, T'challa might be sceptical of democracy given democratic countries haven't necessarily done much better than Wakanda, a monarchy, for dealing with racism and prejudice, though that delves into political questions I doubt the movies have any interest in answering. That's the problem when they're deliberately vague about the politics of these things. They do make a big deal about how Wakanda isn't homogenous, but coexists with at least one major tribe that doesn't approve of their lifestyle, but it seems like the challenge for kingship is as much ceremonial and cathartic as it is serious, with M'Baku (note: I'm bad with names) not necessarily expecting to win, but seeming impressed and surprised that T'challa implored him to yield for the sake of his people and would think no less of him for doing so. Wakanda's policy of secrecy is shown to be something that may have served them well for riding out the ravages of colonialism, but has come back to bite them in the modern day, when they're no longer able to hide (with at least one outsider besides Erik having knowledge of their true nature and some access to their technology, being a known Vibranium dealer) and have all the more trouble interacting with the outside world, what with their king getting assassinated by a brainwashed special forces agent and all. Wakanda has few friends and they're losing their advantage. While from an outsider's POV it's baby steps, it's pretty huge in context that T'challa is willing to make public outreach to the world, treat outsiders as equals and keep PR in mind (notably, he lets Klaue live and later escape because murdering him on the streets of Seoul would be bad publicity) in his actions both as a king and a superhero. Hell, it's mentioned he's the first king in forever to visit the gorilla tribe and treat them with respect.
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Mar 3, 2018 10:40
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I feel like I'm thinking about things too much from an in-universe perspective... I dunno, is that so bad? Maybe it is. I'd ramble more about comparison to the Fish-Man Island saga of One Piece, but not sure how many anime dorks are in this thread to discuss it.
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Mar 3, 2018 11:46
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Snowman_McK posted:Dude, you said 'even muslims have divisions' which is true, but also obvious from even a cursory glance at the history of Islam dating right back to 632AD. Pretty much the mainstream American conservative view of Muslims?
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Mar 4, 2018 07:09
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poptart_fairy posted:T'Challah just mad Erik was better at Wakanda 's foreign policy. I mean, that's literally what Erik does to justify his claim to the throne...
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Mar 5, 2018 23:53
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'Make the ruling class more diverse' isn't real progress, despite what liberals tell themselves.
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Mar 6, 2018 07:49
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Kinda funny that Black Panther is a mix of Captain America (National symbol of his country, uses vibranium), Iron Man (wears power armour and various fancy gadgets constantly being worked on and improved) and Thor (Warrior prince, has basically the same arc having to retake his kingdom). And maybe even Black Widow with the hand-mounted weapons and stealth skills. Maybe coincidental, but still.
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Mar 6, 2018 13:06
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temple posted:fyi: wakanda is real, as real as america or asgard Next thing you'll be telling me Australia is real
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Mar 6, 2018 13:49
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sean10mm posted:Complaining about the That sounds like it's pretty much what these kind of rituals usually come down to both in fiction and real life; while technically binding, they soon or immediately become a glorified ceremony to show off the new king's prowess, and in this case a form of ritualised protest for the gorilla tribe, and the heir apparent has the best training and experience for the most part and can be safely expected to win. Kind of the point of Erik is that he's unprecedented in Wakandan history (as far as we know, anyway) as a half-Wakandan raised in the outside world with a claim to the throne but a completely different mindset. Someone who doesn't give a poo poo about the  and gets enough people on his side because they see a chance to do things their way.
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Mar 15, 2018 13:27
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What about a war veteran on magical steroids?
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Mar 15, 2018 14:11
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The existence of actual superpowers does kinda throw it for a loop. Superhero-kings have come up a lot, usually in a negative light, but there's arguments that it's just a logical extension of actually using their power to make society a better place rather than just preserving the status quo.
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Mar 15, 2018 22:45
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Killmonger's plan is basically 'The only way to stop them potentially loving us over is to gently caress them over back, harder and worse'. Which has basically been the excuse of all manner of horrific empires historically.
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Mar 18, 2018 04:28
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Random topic change; I brought up in another thread how I found it interesting from my (admittedly very shallow) exposure to African-American cinema and television, there's often subtle or overt Christian overtones or the assumption that African-American characters are likely to be active Christians to some degree. Black Panther on the other hand specifically has African main characters who are active in pre-Christian religions (being a king by divine right being pretty drat active, I'd reckon) and even having an implied cultural conflict due to religious differences, all in a modern-day setting. Of course, that comes from comic book weirdness, but notable that the movie rolled with it, even with Christianity being popular in Africa thanks to extensive missionary efforts and forced conversion. Of course, a lot of that comes from comic book weirdness, but with some plausible elements. The ancient Egyptian gods are probably the only African religion you could expect Western audiences to be even vaguely familiar with outside of very vague and very racist ideas of tribal shamans and that, but it also establishes that Wakanda is a very, very old country, which has been influenced by outside sources but otherwise retained its own culture and identity for a very, very long time. And it's far from implausible that an Egyptian god should be worshipped elsewhere in Africa, given some Egyptian gods became popular in Rome. Similarly, there's actually plausible precedent for the Hindu god Hanuman to have picked up worshippers in Africa, given there's been trade and cultural exchange between India and Africa for millennia. This also establishes that Wakanda is a very diverse country, which has maintained itself and remained apparently stable for an equally long time despite having some pretty clear tribal, cultural and religious divisions, through what appears to be a policy of tolerance and giving representatives of each tribe a voice in the leadership. (and notably the end of the movie has T'challa replace the traitorous general with the chief of the Jabiru tribe, who hadn't been on speaking terms with a king for centuries) Religion is something that the Marvel movies don't touch on much despite one character being nominally a god, for probably obvious reasons, though there's some subtext and potential. Just interesting that it's one of a seeming rare case where black spirituality is explored to some extent in a non-Christian (or even Muslim) context. (The other example that comes to mind, oddly, is Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, where an African-American Starfleet officer well aware of his cultural and racial heritage and history is forced into a messianic sort of role in an alien religion, which he comes to accept and try to use for the good of all, helping Bajorans, Starfleet and even the gods themselves)
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Mar 18, 2018 08:17
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Shakespeare was the Hollywood of his time.
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Mar 19, 2018 12:27
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Ironically, there's also a Marvel villain called Peacemonger, which may have come up before. (also Hatemonger and Iron Monger) Killmonger is specifically pointed out to be using CIA tactics and otherwise acting in every way as an amoral, murder-is-the-best-solution, disruptive and rapacious American black ops agent, with a fair amount of lack of self-awareness that has been extensively argued about mind. He works as part of a criminal syndicate and empowers them to murder and steal to further his own ends, which is to seize control of a country based on reactionary, warmongering rhetoric and fund and arm death squads in countries that theoretically pose a threat. He's a one-man CIA death squad, basically. Kinda fitting with how Wakanda is in some ways a reflection of America/the first world with its power and prosperity based on neglecting the needy outside its domestic priorities.
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Mar 21, 2018 15:33
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Actually, on random thought I came up with a comparison to Imperial Japan; a formerly isolationist nation figuring the best way to avoid being turbofucked by colonialism like their neighbours was to become a colonial power themselves and get to conquering.
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Mar 22, 2018 03:16
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Sir Kodiak posted:Not to take away from your point, but just as a heads-up, the person being called a "feminist icon" in that link is Gloria Steinem, not Miley Cyrus. Wasn't she the one who said 'Woman are only voting for Bernie Sanders because their boyfriends told them to"?
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Mar 24, 2018 04:27
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Also a vibranium spear, or at least the ones they made, is apparently also a blaster gun.
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Mar 25, 2018 13:44
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Jedit posted:Piscatarian, you loving douchebag! You said not five minutes ago you have fishermen! Could be his family is vegetarian, not the whole tribe.
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Mar 28, 2018 07:06
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Lord_Magmar posted:They could also be catching fish for reasons outside of directly eating them, like for fertiliser or tools. Played Terraria, checks out.
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Mar 31, 2018 06:07
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Not surprising that the trend of the past decade or so is to take narratives of minority struggle and liberation and repackage them into marketable feel-good stories for comfortable white people, carefully sanded down to avoid meaningfully challenging the status quo, generally with class issues surgically removed.
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Mar 31, 2018 14:07
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Maybe more 'regrettable' I'm not sure if the usual mockeries I've seen on them have taken this angle, but iirc basically the only reason Tyler Perry has an audience is because he's one of the only filmmakers to acknowledge that black middle-class people exist. (though post-2008 I figure they're an endangered species. Again.)
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Apr 1, 2018 08:38
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I think that while it's quite valid to bring up the bad, muddled and unfortunate politics and implications of the movie, it's still also worth acknowledging that marginalised people can take a positive message away from it regardless and accept that it might be a good thing in the long run. (if only because the bad stuff is something that everyone's exposed to anyway, it's nearly background noise in commercial art)
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Apr 2, 2018 02:32
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Weirdly enough Bast as the god of Wakandan kings is as valid as anything given from evidence she was at times the god of war, fertility, beer, parties, incense and usually always cats. The Egyptian gods swapped jobs a lot. In some versions she starts as the god of war until she gets drunk and chills out.
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Apr 2, 2018 04:32
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Wakanda is basically TF2 Australia.
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Apr 2, 2018 07:19
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:This is the next step from treating Wakanda as a real country - claiming that the movie is a biological being that can be poisoned. Brands are people, friend.
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Apr 2, 2018 07:46
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you are referring to a guy who is shown to be subject to literal mind control by the nazis he was specifically fighting, right
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Apr 2, 2018 15:33
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