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The DLC is supposed to come with a whole slew of balance changes and bug fixes. I'll reserve judgment until then. They have a poor track record so far, but on the other hand, they're done porting to console and their summer vacation is over. Maybe they'll get serious now.
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Aug 18, 2018 10:46
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I doubt they'll make any lasting fixes until they launch an internal pogrom--if they kept bringing the same bugs back for months a few weeks vacation isn't going to stop them from undoing their work every patch.
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Aug 18, 2018 16:31
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Willie Tomg posted:a definitely-not-astroturf reddit thread trying to hype people for the DLC is completely dead except for people talking about how awesome the carnival level was in L4D and how low player counts are compared to L4D. Robin and others were pied piping each other on the Vermintide 2 Mod Discord a couple days ago and brushing off the incendiary state of the Reddit like it's nothing. Which is really quite a thing to say when Robin is one of the people responsible for causing such ructions in the communities. "We'll just make people talk better about our game and we'll be fine," he says.    Arghy posted:I doubt they'll make any lasting fixes until they launch an internal pogrom--if they kept bringing the same bugs back for months a few weeks vacation isn't going to stop them from undoing their work every patch. I don't believe the game is salvageable from any standpoint so long as Hero Power exists and the random rear end differences between classes and characters (HP being top among them) remain forever unequal. Hero power on top of incredibly weak and/or broken weapons and all the unnecessary added combo hits makes the actual playing of this game, and all of its way-too-long maps with pace-breaking busy-work (empire in flames cart pushing, everything about hunger in the dark) the frustrating mess that leads to one of the most caustic environments in gaming.
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Aug 18, 2018 17:39
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>Threads with 300+ comments, lots of upvotes, and lots of agreeable people talking about the realistic state of the game >Vocal minority
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Aug 18, 2018 17:43
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i think my favorite part about that is robin's first line "yeah, i think what we need to do is focus on [INSERT LITERALLY EVERYTHING HERE]." that's that's not how focus works, bro!
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Aug 18, 2018 17:47
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Lunethex posted:Robin and others were pied piping each other on the Vermintide 2 Mod Discord a couple days ago and brushing off the incendiary state of the Reddit like it's nothing. Which is really quite a thing to say when Robin is one of the people responsible for causing such ructions in the communities. "We'll just make people talk better about our game and we'll be fine," he says. lol. way to poo poo on the modding community moron, modding communities keep games alive for decades, look at half life. look at l4d. this game doesn't even have PVP, so why should they give a gently caress about modding. i want to have a capaign in loving disneyland or mario and other dumb weird poo poo. l4d lets me do that.
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Aug 18, 2018 19:57
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This game exists in a really weird half-life where it has a hell of a lot of stupid flaws, but drat it's SO CLOSE to being perfect.
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Aug 18, 2018 20:01
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This is a really fun game but it makes me sad it's so messed up
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Aug 18, 2018 20:03
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anything fun in the game is the skeleton of what was brought over wholesale from vermintide 1
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Aug 18, 2018 22:09
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Ah yes, I enjoy that authentic Vermintide 1 Slayer gameplay.
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Aug 18, 2018 22:49
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I also genuinely enjoy Chaos Warriors. They make a good miniboss. And while there are some problems with balance, I like the ability to tweak the characters and skills around some too.
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Aug 18, 2018 22:51
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Really, 2 would be fine without Hero Power. Hero Power is kind of the root of all of 2's problems.
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Aug 18, 2018 22:52
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the maps are also much more diverse and memorable than the first game's non-DLC selection
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Aug 18, 2018 22:54
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I strongly suspect Hero Power wasn't added to allow for crazy gamer collectathon grinding but so they'd have something to give minor tweaks to make their idea for a big, exciting Career system work. It's just that the way it works, functionally, those minor tweaks are tweaks to an opaque mechanic and you can never tell how much they're actually helping; see how long it took for people to realize stuff like Eldrazor's Precision straight didn't work.
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Aug 18, 2018 22:55
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Night10194 posted:Really, 2 would be fine without Hero Power. Hero Power is kind of the root of all of 2's problems. Which is odd, because I'd guess that most of the people still posting in this thread are at HP 600 with basically all of their gear. It definitely wasn't the most elegant thing, but I'm not sure I'd call it the root of all the problems. Massively exacerbating other problems, yeah.
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Aug 18, 2018 22:57
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Ravenfood posted:Which is odd, because I'd guess that most of the people still posting in this thread are at HP 600 with basically all of their gear. It definitely wasn't the most elegant thing, but I'm not sure I'd call it the root of all the problems. Massively exacerbating other problems, yeah. Yeah im confused by that accusation as well. If all the talents in the game are balanced under the assumption of HP 600 on Legend (or even Champion) than there wouldnt be any issue. Boring non-choice talents and buggy poo poo would be a factor with or without hero power
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Aug 18, 2018 23:07
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i defended hero power when i first saw it because a well implemented version of that allows you to twiddle one number and make wide-ranging tweaks on stuff, and reason about what you're doing pretty easily. it also allows you to write an entire shitload of simulations and tests to make sure that things look and feel expected at every level and that the math is delivering the fit you want. hero power is not well implemented and it's incredibly goddamn clear not a single test has been written for the entire project so none of this turned out true however.
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Aug 18, 2018 23:09
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What exactly is the problem with using hero power? Like yeah there are broken talents and balance problems and broken mechanics and legend sucks and p2p hosting is dumb... but those would exist anyway. Is the issue the obfuscation of actual weapon damage/speed numbers?
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Aug 18, 2018 23:56
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Mailer posted:What exactly is the problem with using hero power? Like yeah there are broken talents and balance problems and broken mechanics and legend sucks and p2p hosting is dumb... but those would exist anyway. Is the issue the obfuscation of actual weapon damage/speed numbers? Mostly, they make breakpoints a lot mushier until you get up to 600 and so weapon/talent balancing is even harder. I think it's a lot of why some weapons feel like rear end sometimes and then suddenly click as you level, because all of a sudden you're cleaning through an extra target or changed your hits-to-kill and so on. Also, it means you have to level and grind boxes or you're at a significant mechanical disadvantage, which really annoys some people.
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Aug 19, 2018 00:01
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Ravenfood posted:I also genuinely enjoy Chaos Warriors. They make a good miniboss. And while there are some problems with balance, I like the ability to tweak the characters and skills around some too. a) there are too god drat many, b) Fatshart keeps nerfing weapons that are good against them, c) many weapons have garbage to no AP even on charges hits, d) they will eat up and end cleaving of your weapons, making one in a horde extremely bad and dumb especially if your weapon doesn't AP on lights, and e) most annoyingly is their hitboxes don't lineup with their attack animation and you have skating fuckers that one-shot you from afar and god forbid you play with a little bit of a lag, and the damage-punch is pretty loving annoying too f) their head hitbox is weirdly small and obstructed by their chest armor so most melee weapons can't even hit them in the head. And this has the result of making a lot of weapons suck because if you aren’t bringing a weapons that can deal with CW you are nearly a deadweight. Notice a lot of the best or useble weapons/classes (ie Shade, Halberds, BH, Zealot/flail) are good because they can deal with CWs If they went through and gave every weapon at least a 0.75x-2x multiplier on charges hits or more on specialty weapons and actually rebalanced them so every weapon had at least a solid AP on charged with some being designated Armored-Killers but Bad At Hordes or something then we'd have a lot more interesting and varied team builds. Instead it's literally "pick weapon thats good vs armor, which coincidentally are typically all also very good vs trash" If they ever nerf Pyros spooky skull she will immediately become dumpster level because her skull killing CWs on fast CD is like the only thing she really brings. Also yes I’m still loving bitter at Fatshart for nerfing loving Repeater Pistol because it was good at one loving niche and nothing else and they decided that niche of Being Able To Kill CWs was just too strong. gently caress off garbage devs E: phone posting fixes Xaris fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Aug 19, 2018 |
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Aug 19, 2018 00:12
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I also don’t think HP is the root of all problems. It’s bad and dumb and makes it harder for a new player to start playing with friends and it’s super inconvenient getting sub 300 drops for random was. But getting 600 is relatively trivial and if Legend game is then balanced at a baseline of 600 HP then its not really a problem. The problem is it isn’t even balanced at 600 HP It’s still dumb and should go away but again it’s a more small drop compared to their atrocious development practices, bad balancing, obsfication of data and hatred of the players, bugs, etc
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Aug 19, 2018 00:17
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The thing is Hero Power shifts how many targets you're going to hit instead of the weapons behaving consistently. Ratfight 1's weapons could behave consistently, while you don't know if +15% Hero Power is going to make you go through an extra rat or whatever without extensive testing (which has a ton of confounding variables like fat football players instead of rats) or a spreadsheet.
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Aug 19, 2018 00:38
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Lunethex posted:Robin and others were pied piping each other on the Vermintide 2 Mod Discord a couple days ago and brushing off the incendiary state of the Reddit like it's nothing. Which is really quite a thing to say when Robin is one of the people responsible for causing such ructions in the communities. "We'll just make people talk better about our game and we'll be fine," he says. the vocal minority of all but the sliver of a sliver of people who are still playing. Robin. The English language does not work this way. e; a vocal minority, as distinct from the one brown-noser who's half the discord messages in those screencaps telling robin what he wants to hear Willie Tomg fucked around with this message at 03:22 on Aug 19, 2018 |
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Aug 19, 2018 03:17
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The problem is they don't have damage numbers so you can't loving understand why you're doing better/worse through the different difficulties. If you saw that you're damage remained the same but things didn't die going through recruit/vet/champ you'd understand oh hey their hp's are higher! You can now couple this with weird poo poo like HP affecting things like cleave/stagger and now its impossible to understand without massive research which even then is hard because they won't give you any loving numbers. Hero power is broken because if you had a base line that you could clearly see and understand then you could simply change power vs stats to straight up damage bonus vs. You know how much damage your weapon does because it will never change, now you can easily understand what 15% damage against chaos would mean. Instead you get a complicated loving mess thats hidden because  's obsession with not telling you anything so you just get frustrated.Remove hero power and change everything related to hero power with a flat damage bonus, activate damage numbers. Everything is now clearly understandable and you can easily see all the broken talents.
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Aug 19, 2018 03:18
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"But Chef Ramsay, all my customers say the food is excellent, why do I need to change?"
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Aug 19, 2018 03:18
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Like, I can tell you exactly what a Rapier will do, on every level of difficulty, in Ratfight 1. I can have it guaranteed the rapier is going to do exactly that. That was the bedrock of building technique: Your tools always worked a certain way and then you tried to adapt them to your situation.
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Aug 19, 2018 03:21
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I was pretty shocked by the fact that they did hero power at all. Like out of all the possible things they could have done going from rat 1 to 2, replacing their finely hand-tuned balance with Destiny scaling bullshit was the last thing I would have predicted. It could not fit vermintide any less. I don’t think removing it would fix everything though. it’s just the tip of the iceberg of the frustrations.
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Aug 19, 2018 03:36
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Hero Power is not, inherently, unworkable. It requires a very honest internal conversation about the core competencies of the property and its appeal however, and Fatshark is clearly more interested in having 3-5 sycophants on social media tell stories about how everyone bailing on their bullshit is actually good.
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Aug 19, 2018 03:40
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Hero power is not only unnecessary from the balancing standpoint, it's a perfidious newbie hazing system. You start weak, and you have to grind up to get to where you're not so weak; to where the game is balanced. It absolutely demeans the game and demoralizes players, because Vermintide 2 is a game of false progression. You could play Diablo 2, where everything is always at your level and you always get dropped the gear you're meant to have and your progression is all but synced with the enemies you face, or you play, I dunno, D&D, where you can go out and find amazing stuff and stomp the early game, and the lower level stuff never catches up as you go through the rigmarole of "beat bad guys to get better swords to beat bigger bad guys." But in Vermintide 2, as said, you start weak, and you're always weak. This is on top of individual weapon balancing, and the percentage of the game's weapons that are useless is higher than those that aren't. We can't just compare everything to Skaven Rats and Stormvermin, not with 90% unstaggerable berserkers, shields, and other sorts of crap in the way now. Not to mention all melee is useless against bosses, which are frequent run enders, which often require dedicated attackers (who coincidentally have the lowest HP for no loving reason) and sometimes, because they're so overpowered and nobody apparently gives a drat about it, they can be outright unkillable by low hero power teams. Read; newbies. See: the Troll and Chaos Spawn. And outside of gameplay mechanics, Gear Score creates an extremely toxic community. With the amount of loot that gets doled out and the ever present need to improve as fast as possible coupled with, again, bad weapons and very long maps that only pay out a single dinky box, we saw the influx of AHK scripts, the speedrunning pubbies who regularly ruin the games they're part of and ignore all the level, we have an inexpressibly acidic skeleton playerbase left. Vermintide 1 was a game about skill, about avoiding damage, and you played the game just to play it. There was nothing grand about it. In Vermintide 2, none of those elements exist, and the game does everything it can, especially due to it being in a crappy state, to make sure you die in the most unfair ways possible, not have a good time, and never get the things you want or need. Both games are MMOs but they aren't hiding it here. The Vermintide 1 core that we all loved is there, it's merely been buried and macerated. The truckloads of Webms on the internet and all the compilation videos done must just be a real gas and not indicative of the genuine state, I suppose. Insert everything about not having an ounce of what made V1 bearable here: good crafting system, the bounty board, the altar, etc. tl;dr Vermintide 2 is a rotten nurgle onion
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Aug 19, 2018 04:41
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I like both games, but it's a weird sort of thing where it feels like Ratfight 1 is the more refined sequel and Ratfight 2 is the flawed, rough, but promising first entry.
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Aug 19, 2018 04:52
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Night10194 posted:I like both games, but it's a weird sort of thing where it feels like Ratfight 1 is the more refined sequel and Ratfight 2 is the flawed, rough, but promising first entry. I'd like to see it done right but I don't see it happening with all these built-in "features". To build off of what Willie said earlier, there are way, way too many cooks in the kitchen. In other words, there's so much that gets in the way of playing Vermintide 2 that you can't really appreciate anything. It comes off like Alpha. It's neither immaculate nor smart looking. There are more people playing the game who don't want to actually play the game, which is defined as fighting and killing and enjoying it, which was V1. V1 is there, and it bleeds through once in a while. Until the next Chaos Fanatic skates in from 20 miles out and hits you. Or a Stormvermin does a running attack through 3 other stormvermin and slashes half your HP and then in the resulting UI shake and slowdown you get KO'd by a cleave.
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Aug 19, 2018 05:00
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And hell, all of that Hero Power Talk and the Weapon Talk, didn't even mention how deprecating the existence of 'Damage vs. XYZ' modifiers on items are. That means everything's balanced around that, too, making matters worse! People like to say, a lot, in the communities that reds don't matter and nothing really matters. Except, they do, and Reds are valuable because they do more damage than oranges since they can guarantee max rolls on such modifiers. Modifiers shouldn't be so direct. It should go back to V1 where it was all nice to have, not I need to have this to reach arbitrary damage numbers like I'm playing FF14's Savage Raids, or whatever the tougher versions were called.
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Aug 19, 2018 05:11
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somehow they made a good decision in baking 'hp on kill/whatever' options into every character but swapped it out for '+damage against x' traits on weapons that you probably absolutely want instead
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Aug 19, 2018 05:13
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Night10194 posted:I like both games, but it's a weird sort of thing where it feels like Ratfight 1 is the more refined sequel and Ratfight 2 is the flawed, rough, but promising first entry. They got too ambitious and tried to make the sequel to their breakout hit bigger and better by adding a bunch of kludgy ancillary mechanics.
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Aug 19, 2018 05:17
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFhkcO7FcrY&feature=youtu.be Why have i never heard any of these loving bardin songs? I'm a loving bardin main and i literally only ever heard him sing 1 song then i got interrupted by the loving elf. The ultimate problem with the hero power system is fatsharks inability to loving code and make talents work. So many talents just don't loving work unless your host so unless you can actually fix these talents you shouldn't be able to have such a complicated system.
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Aug 19, 2018 05:38
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speaking of AHK scripts, i still love that jsat turned off his on-screen keyboard overlay on his stream because it revealed that an absolute shitload of his key inputs were macroed and people gave him huge amounts of poo poo for it.
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Aug 19, 2018 06:53
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Arghy posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFhkcO7FcrY&feature=youtu.be Man, this game has really delightful voice acting that you so rarely get to hear, on top of the problems mechanically. And other than aping l4d why the hell can you not have all five characters playing together?
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Aug 19, 2018 11:34
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Man, this game has really delightful voice acting that you so rarely get to hear, on top of the problems mechanically. Wouldn't be fair to the rats and northlanders.
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Aug 19, 2018 11:37
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  This is just pathetic and sad. I love how casual it is, too. They sound so flippant when they talk about effectively robbing people of their hard work.
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Aug 20, 2018 13:47
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Fatshark should just give up the game development goals and open up a seafood joint because of how much they flounder. They've already got a good company name for it.
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Aug 20, 2018 13:53
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