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I would nominate: Misform Ultimus (Legions) Dragonlord Ojutai (Dragons of Tarkir)
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Mar 22, 2018 08:25
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We've had a lot of people posting, so I won't try to address everything. I will say that I really appreciate what we have going on here! I can't access the sheet at work, but I glanced at my phone and someone found a great way to do the double counting thing I was going for. Kudos to whomever outsmarted my 1 AM brain haha. I am looking through some of the sets that I actually played for more commons. What are the thoughts on the following potentials?
Last thing: do we want a Discord server, or will this thread suffice? I don't think SA really has a magic Discord, so I guess I could set that up if there's interest?
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Mar 22, 2018 20:56
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For blue countermagic, we can do a full vertical cycle that includes Counterspell at uncommon or common and has one spell at common/uncommon/rare/mythic, where we can put something like Force of Will or Mana Drain at Mythic. Four spells, maaaybe 5 should be more than enough. Also yeah, I went full spectrum on the spreadsheet. Thanks for creating this, btw! e: Re: Kiln Fiend, we may want to consider a red/blue prowess theme, given how many good creatures there are in both we can include, such as monastery swiftspear and stormchaser mage. e2: As far as the spreadsheet goes, I think we should go broad, then trim the list down through some kind of voting process. TheChirurgeon fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Mar 22, 2018 |
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Mar 22, 2018 21:04
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Counterspell, Cryptic, Force?
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Mar 22, 2018 21:09
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I'm fine with that idea and those three, but I would add that we include a much lower level counter like a Spell Pierce or a Dispel at common in order to keep games sane. That would also knock out Remand, if anyone cares about that.
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Mar 22, 2018 21:13
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Sure, I actually like Dispel/Remand/Cryptic/Force better. Dispel can easily be Spell Pierce.
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Mar 22, 2018 21:17
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Some Numbers posted:Sure, I actually like Dispel/Remand/Cryptic/Force better. I'll fight to the death over including Counterspell, but otherwise I like Cryptic at Rare and Dispel at common. I could also buy Negate/Essence Scatter at common if you wanted 5 counterspells
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Mar 22, 2018 21:19
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Counterspell's certainly more iconic overall, but Remand was hugely impactful for the two years it was in Standard and definitely one of the cards that pops to mind when I think "Ravnica."
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Mar 22, 2018 21:20
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Some Numbers posted:Counterspell's certainly more iconic overall, but Remand was hugely impactful for the two years it was in Standard and definitely one of the cards that pops to mind when I think "Ravnica." Ravnica won't be hurting for iconic cards to include, though. On the other hand, if you wanted to make a case for Memory lapse, I'd be willing to hear it, since Homelands has maybe 3 cards that anyone would ever include
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Mar 22, 2018 21:26
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TheChirurgeon posted:Ravnica won't be hurting for iconic cards to include, though. On the other hand, if you wanted to make a case for Memory lapse, I'd be willing to hear it, since Homelands has maybe 3 cards that anyone would ever include Both fair points. Remand made a huge splash, but Ravnica as a whole did as well and I would be totally willing to let Lapse take the spot. If not for the existence of Serrated Arrows and Merchant Scroll.
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Mar 22, 2018 22:15
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I think the set has room for 5 counterspells without hurting limited. Several sets have had 2-4 at common and another at uncommon, with some being at rare. Khans, for example, had 5 in a 269 card set. Force Spike / Spell Pierce Counterspell Remand / Lapse Cryptic Command Force of Will Would probably be fine, or maybe replacing one of CC or force with another common or uncommon.
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Mar 22, 2018 22:56
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The Shortest Path posted:I think the set has room for 5 counterspells without hurting limited. Several sets have had 2-4 at common and another at uncommon, with some being at rare. Khans, for example, had 5 in a 269 card set. You're basically suggesting the suite of good clnstructed playable counterspells. Which is fine as all are iconic cards, but together in a limited format with the potential at multiples that's fairly driving strong. I feel too strong.
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Mar 22, 2018 23:27
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Mana Tithe over Force Spike?
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Mar 22, 2018 23:30
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Also, Force of Will at Mythic and Cryptic at Rare will not affect limited that much. And FoW isn't that great in limited anyway.
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Mar 22, 2018 23:31
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Well we may also want to include one or two multicolor counters like mystic snake, so 4 in blue may be correct
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Mar 22, 2018 23:33
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Some Numbers posted:Also, Force of Will at Mythic and Cryptic at Rare will not affect limited that much. I'd be happy FoW at mythic for the Alliances iconic and Cryptic at rare. Remand at uncommon, Counterspell at common. Should we consider what draft builds we'd like to see early and try to design to that? I feel that is a good plan.
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Mar 22, 2018 23:37
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TheChirurgeon posted:Well we may also want to include one or two multicolor counters like mystic snake, so 4 in blue may be correct I'd rather have Coiling Oracle as a UG card, but if we're doing multiple, sure.
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Mar 22, 2018 23:38
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Some Numbers posted:I'd rather have Coiling Oracle as a UG card, but if we're doing multiple, sure. Currently there are 21 multicolor cards in Masters 25, 2 for each 2-color combo, so I don't see why we wouldn't Gridlocked posted:I'd be happy FoW at mythic for the Alliances iconic and Cryptic at rare. Yes, though something I'd push for with this kind of format, is to focus on tribal in most of the colors, because it's easier to connect things like Goblins or Soldiers across mutiple sets and colors
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Mar 23, 2018 01:29
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I think pushing one really good recognisable tribe like Goblins or Elves would be great but focusing too much on colour tribal could be bad as it will detract from other evocative designs. Like for example we can have a strong Elf tribal in green and then have cards that lead to big ramp in each green/X pair with a different focus on what they are ramping to.
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Mar 23, 2018 01:36
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As for going wide then voting down, do we want to add everything suggested to the sheet, then come back and edit, or take care of things in here and then add to the sheet? EDIT: I don't like the idea of Counterspell at common. Someone rolling 4+ Counterspells in a deck seems really powerful, but maybe that's fine in Limited? Shadow225 fucked around with this message at 01:50 on Mar 23, 2018 |
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Mar 23, 2018 01:47
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Gridlocked posted:I think pushing one really good recognisable tribe like Goblins or Elves would be great but focusing too much on colour tribal could be bad as it will detract from other evocative designs. Like for example we can have a strong Elf tribal in green and then have cards that lead to big ramp in each green/X pair with a different focus on what they are ramping to. I wouldn't necessarily suggest focusing on color tribal, more that we put in a couple lords per tribe and prioritize in-tribe creatures over non. For example, Elite Vanguard from M10 over Savannah Lions if you're doing Soldiers in White, or Savannah Lions if you're doing cat tribal instead. Then you've got creatures that leave the option for going tribal open if the cards present, but you aren't dependent on it, especially if you avoid putting in bad stuff just cause it's in-tribe Shadow225 posted:As for going wide then voting down, do we want to add everything suggested to the sheet, then come back and edit, or take care of things in here and then add to the sheet? I think we should go wide, then pare down via votes. We shouldn't even be starting voting until we have at least one card from every set on the list.
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Mar 23, 2018 01:48
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For selection we should start with the big icons at the top: powerful effects, mythic rares and the rares/uncommon/multicoloured cards that set the tone for the format. Then go from there.TheChirurgeon posted:I wouldn't necessarily suggest focusing on color tribal, more that we put in a couple lords per tribe and prioritize in-tribe creatures over non. For example, Elite Vanguard from M10 over Savannah Lions if you're doing Soldiers in White, or Savannah Lions if you're doing cat tribal instead. I disagree. Lords for tribes that we want to be relevant in limited are good but ones that are just marginal in a colour/colour pair that doesn't require a tribal focus waste slots. For example if Red has a Goblins theme then yeah we toss in Goblin King and Goblin Warboss. But if White is running a supportive theme we don't care what tribe is there because it's irrelevant. Gridlocked fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Mar 23, 2018 |
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Mar 23, 2018 01:56
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I feel like including the original Lords (Goblin King, Lord of Atlantis, Elvish Champion, Lord of the Undead, plus Field Marshal from Coldsnap) would be a really good idea to be honest. Maybe be bold and throw them in at uncommon, even! Those core tribes span the entirety of the 25 years of magic and are super iconic, plus a lot of the good common/uncommon filler creatures we'd want to put in the set fall into them anyways, with the possible exception of zombies.
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Mar 23, 2018 02:01
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Gridlocked posted:For selection we should start with the big icons at the top: powerful effects, mythic rares and the rares/uncommon/multicoloured cards that set the tone for the format. Then go from there. In an equally balanced world, I agree. However, rares and mythics are the easiest things to pick, while commons are the hardest. Some of those rare slots may have to be reserved for sets that don't really have anything else (Force of Will, Restoration Angel). Still, the reason anyone cares about these sets are the big Rares, so you're probably right. Continue wading through the commons and uncommons, and use the rares to influence the voting seems like a fair compromise. I'm looking through M15, and man I understand why they stopped the core sets haha. There's not much here, just bad cards, bad slivers, and Stoke the Flames. Reclamation Sage (M15) (u) - Universal naturalize on a body. Boonweaver Giant (M15) (u) - I talked about him earlier. Stoke the Flames would be my pick...but Convoke.
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Mar 23, 2018 02:03
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Gridlocked posted:For selection we should start with the big icons at the top: powerful effects, mythic rares and the rares/uncommon/multicoloured cards that set the tone for the format. Then go from there. I don't think they're mutually exclusive, particularly when it comes to the really versatile tribes. Blue probably won't have a tribe associated with it, but I think elves/soldiers/goblins/zombies are fine to have as options for the other four, and there's a ton of overlap with those and historically good cards anyways. You can put the 1 lord for each at uncommon and/or rare and call it a day. But I also don't think you can build a strong format without plenty of creatures and excluding keyword mechanics means it's easier to just use the common iconic tribes. This may be the kind of thing where once we've got a bunch of card suggestions in, rather than vote on every card, we vote on sets of cards based on theme and do write-ups of those for voters to read. Shadow225 posted:Reclamation Sage (M15) (u) - Universal naturalize on a body. This works out fine if we do Elves for green
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Mar 23, 2018 02:07
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Shadow225 posted:In an equally balanced world, I agree. However, rares and mythics are the easiest things to pick, while commons are the hardest. Some of those rare slots may have to be reserved for sets that don't really have anything else (Force of Will, Restoration Angel). Still, the reason anyone cares about these sets are the big Rares, so you're probably right. Continue wading through the commons and uncommons, and use the rares to influence the voting seems like a fair compromise. Well the issue I see is really there are two objectives of the M25 set. 1) Show off an iconic cards from each set of Magic so people can nostalgia trip. 2) Be a fun playable limited format with more strategies than just X/Y Stuff bassed on what your bombs and good removal are in packs 1 and early pack 2. The best way to achieve both is start at the top and work down.
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Mar 23, 2018 02:09
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Do we have to have no keywords? Part of what makes some sets memorable is their keywords. Convoke? Whatever could be any set. Kicker? In so many sets it is on its way to being evergreen. But like Suspend? Yeah man give me that sweet sweet Time Spiral block. When you think Time Spiral you think: suspend, colour shift and cool future frames. Also I figured out the best way to describe this set: it's a cube. Think cubey.
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Mar 23, 2018 02:23
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I think we could probably remove one of Cycling/Morph to replace with one other keyword, but it'd have to be one of the more common ones, like Kicker or Flashback*. Suspend comes with so much baggage I don't think it's worth it, and there are cool non-suspend cards in Time Spiral. *Flashback has my vote, btw
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Mar 23, 2018 02:36
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I think two on theme Suspend cards would be fine. Maybe one of the rares that is a call back to the classics and like Rift Bolt which is nice and clean on one turn into the future. Obviously some mechanics should not be touched like Infect. It's just too clunky in a set where it doesn't have a dominant theme. Undying could make a cool comeback if black has a secondary theme of Sacrifice. But again we should start at the iconic poo poo we defiantly want and go down from there. Build The Cube
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Mar 23, 2018 02:53
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Gravedigger would be a great and iconic (for limited, anyway) common from Portal, which is also a Zombie.
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Mar 23, 2018 03:00
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The Shortest Path posted:Gravedigger would be a great and iconic (for limited, anyway) common from Portal, which is also a Zombie. Great card, iconic, works in a few limited black plans and even has utility outside of specific plans for getting bombs back. I'd say it's a good nomination
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Mar 23, 2018 03:09
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So morph creatures are one of the few mechanics that are allowed in A25. The problem is a lot of them came from Khans, which is multicolour and has a fair few mechanics. We definitely want Willbender (I don't think there's a more iconic morph creature in the game), which means we have some choices to make. Morph creatures in A25 Ainok Survivalist (DTK) - It's a naturalize effect. I don't like it,but I can understand its inclusion. Akroma, Angel of Fury (PLC) - Iconic, but bad. Brine Elemental (TSP) - weird effect. Broodhatch Nantuko (ONS) - weird inclusion, effect is strange. Dragon's Eye Savants (KTK) - lolwut Fathom Seer (TSP) - okay, draw 2 cards, that's okay. 5 for it, but 2 for 2. Fortune Thief (TSP) - Really? Ire Shaman (DTK) - I didn't like it, but I'm kinda warming to it? there's not a lot of good red morphs, and it's an interesting effect. Karona's Zealot (SCG) - that's not a good white morph. it's a white morph though. Krosan Colossus (ONS) - a big, dumb green morph. Mystic of the Hidden Way (KTK) - This one I like. Ruthless Ripper (KTK) - It's there. Skirk Commando (ONS) - interesting. I like it. Vesuvan Shapeshifter (TSP) - yep, a clone effect in morph. it's solid. Willbender (LGN) - It's The OG morph. Auto-include. Wolly Loxadon (KTK) - Ugh, another big green dumb morph. Zoeti Cavern (FUT) - the weird morph land. So some things that I think could use a change, notably Dragon's eye savant and Fortune thief. also only 1 white or black morph, which I'm opposed to. And both of the white and black ones are kinda lackluster. Possible options Bane of the Living (LGN) - It's more for the interesting effect than the actual 'iconicness', is also black. Daru Lancer (ONS) - Yes, it's just a white beatstick. OTOH, a 3/4 first strike is real solid. Daru Sanctifier (LGN) -Anti-enchantment. its a card. Deathmist Raptor (DTK) - that's an iconic card. I remember this being a big part of Khans block. Den Protector (DTK) - and there's the other half. Exalted Angel (ONS) - not great, because obvious not-lifelink. Goblin Taskmaster (ONS) -if you go goblins,it's not terrible? Grim Haruspex (KTK) - creature sacrifice, but never was great. Guardian Shield-Bearer (DTK) - +1/+1 counters. Hidden Dragonslayer (DTK) - I actually really like this card, I'd mark it as iconic. A weird white effect. Hooded Hydra (KTK) - A much more interesting green beater. it is mythic however. Horde Ambusher (KTK) - falter effect for a red card. Hystrodon (ONS) - An interesting card, would like to see it downshifted. Mistfire Weaver (DTK) - different version of a counter. giving hexproof is cool. Silumgar Assassin (DTK) - Smother on morph. also black. Wingbeat Warrior (LGN) - White combat trick as a morph. So there's a few options here. 1. get rid of white and black morphs and make it basically Temur 2. swap out some green for more black/white. Torchlighter fucked around with this message at 08:17 on Mar 23, 2018 |
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Mar 23, 2018 03:30
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Good post. My suggestion would be to identify: 1) X number iconic big boys we can't be without 2) Pick if we want the draft format to fit into Shards/Clans or into Guilds. I say these two because that is the easiest way to identify draft strats and then plan structure. 3) pick what each strat for combos of the above is the one to run with
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Mar 23, 2018 03:38
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Gridlocked posted:I think two on theme Suspend cards would be fine. Maybe one of the rares that is a call back to the classics and like Rift Bolt which is nice and clean on one turn into the future. We've got lightning bolt and a million better burn spells, so I just don't think Rift Bolt is worth it Torchlighter posted:Morph Post Good post. I'll admit I don't like Morph much, but if we're keeping it around, I'd definitely second Deathmist Raptor and suggest we move it down to rare. Other possible includes: - Echo Tracer - Rattleclaw Mystic (downshift to uncommon) - Voidmage Prodigy
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Mar 23, 2018 03:54
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TheChirurgeon posted:We've got lightning bolt and a million better burn spells, so I just don't think Rift Bolt is worth it Do we though? Like LB sure it's hard to say we don't have that but everything else is speculation and ideas. Again this is why we should start at the top with essentials and work down .
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Mar 23, 2018 04:10
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I wouldn't be opposed to switching Morph vis a vis with another mechanic, but part of the reason I brought this up is because I think that given roughly the same constraints, I think that we could make a better set. We could easily make an iconic set if we time spiraled it up, but I think it is clear that they didn't want to do that for draft considerations. Unrelated to that, the more I think about it, the more I agree with the enemy filterlands. This is the first reprint that they have had, and they probably saw quite a bit of play, even in eternal, before being obsoleted by better lands. EDIT: We've been rolling on the common front for a while, so sure let's start looking at some of the rares and mythics and that may help inform our decisions further. Here are some of my immediate thoughts: Noble Hierarch (CON) (r) - Best mana dork ever. Karn Liberated (NPH) (m) - One of the most powerful walkers ever, but to be fair it really only saw play in modern Tron Batterskull (NPH) (m) - This is what I think of when I think of this set. Powerful equipment from an artifact set. It does have Living Weapon, which means it should probably be out. Jace (WWK) - duh Siege Rhino (KTK) (r) - Not very exciting, but defined an era of standard. Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger (BFZ) (m) - It would be kind of dumb to have two Eldrazi blocks without an Eldrazi, but we can't use Annhilator so the originals are out. I think we would be hard up for other slots from here. Restoration Angel (AVR) (r) - The most angel angel since OG Akroma. Fan Favorite, defined a Standard era along with... Thragtusk (M13) (r) - A huge value piece, for better or worse. Rishadan Port (MMQ) (r) - I agree with the initial inclusion Shadow225 fucked around with this message at 04:34 on Mar 23, 2018 |
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Mar 23, 2018 04:23
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I'm so setting up a discord.for this when I get home
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Mar 23, 2018 04:27
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Shadow225 posted:
The 'only evergreen' really does cut down on the number of possible pickups. The entirety of Scars is gonna be a weird wasteland,although the swords are there for pickup if you're really hurt for it..I think part of why A25 was worse was also that they weren't really reprinting things from MM2017,which means no Thrag, as well as a bunch of cards that aren't getting reprinted that were iconic. Snapcaster mage anyone? Torchlighter fucked around with this message at 05:50 on Mar 23, 2018 |
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Mar 23, 2018 04:54
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And this is why I support allowing non-evergreen mechanics within reason. Saying no to them was one of the bad decisions that lead to M25 sucking in the first place. What this set should be I'd the intersection of Cube and Timespiral Timeshifted not 100% reprinted core set.
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Mar 23, 2018 05:08
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You can't say you're making a better set within the same restrictions if you ignore the restrictions. Non-evergreen mechanics are out, if they weren't we'd be talking about an entirely different set of cards. Having a discord in addition to this thread is just gonna dilute the discussion tbh. A google doc for lists of stuff is all we need. Shadow225 posted:Here are some of my immediate thoughts: Hierarch and Batterskull are both out due to keywords, Siege Rhino is good if we're okay with putting in three color cards but we're already going to be tight on slots, the rest are good imo. Loxodon Warhammer, Bonesplitter, Sword of X and Y, Skullclamp, Lightning Greaves (if shroud is kosher), Viridian Longbow are all equipment that are good in limited and fairly memorable re: original Mirrodin. If we want equips from Scars block there's Nim Deathmantle and Sword of Feast and Famine from the first two sets.
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Mar 23, 2018 05:50
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