|
I think that we can all agree that the Magic: the Gathering set Master 25 (A25) was a failure on all accounts. The set wasn't particularly nostalgic, valuable, or even fun to draft. I think that we can honestly crowd source a better set, so let's try it! Here's what I am thinking: we set up a google doc (coming soon) to compile everything, and then once we have the set maybe trick a few goons into drafting it. Here are the design constraints with which we will be working:
Here is (I hope) a link to the Google spreadsheet. I will have to figure out an elegant way to include multiple cards of the same rarity be included in the course that for the set, but we can at least start cataloging. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WQf6pPbsC-GYxtEWGU131P3T_uaVPl7dQxADKWCaHEw/edit?usp=drivesdk Shadow225 fucked around with this message at 06:43 on Mar 22, 2018 |
#
¿
Mar 21, 2018 21:00
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ Apr 27, 2024 06:50 |
|
|
My initial thoughts are that filling out the common slots will be the most difficult, and filling out the rare slots will be the easiest. As such here are the two approaches I could think to help start. - Run through the sets and try to grab the easy commons and uncommons to start, fill in the rares, and then look at shifting rarity in order to fill in holes. - List the iconic cards by set, then fill in the holes afterward. I would suggest that we hold off on rarity shifting at the onset, but obviously good arguments could be made immediately. Also, I am not attached to using every set in the above post. I don't know if Starter 1999 was an iconic set or whatever, but if not I would be cool with skipping it. How do we want to approach this bear?
|
|
#
¿
Mar 21, 2018 21:08
|
|
|
Some good submissions here. Can we start including the initial set for bookkeeping? The Shortest Path posted:If you're starting with commons and uncommons, there are a lot that are iconic just by their prevalence in standard at the time, or in eternal formats. That's a good list. Imperial Recruiter would be rarity shifted to rare because of the price (that we don't acknowledge!!!!) and also maybe power level. Skullclamp was a card I was thinking of myself, but it's in that weird space where you probably want it at rare for draft balance, but you don't want to open it as a rare. Rap Record Hoarder posted:Harrow Another good list. Harrow is a dang good grab. I am not sure how I would feel about Evil Eye without many walls, but maybe that was part of the appeal? Wild Mongrel is good, but would probably knock out Grizzly Bears since it's strictly better. Is that an issue if both are at common? I want to be careful about cycles since we are limited by the number of sets we must allocate cards to, and 5 from a set would be problematic. Thisuck posted:Grizzly Bears Great list. Grizzly Bears is one of the cards I was thinking of that would be a slam dunk. Green is the easiest color to grab creatures for, and there are strictly better bears for days, but it's a dang nickname, so we have to keep it imo Lord of Atlantis is in a weird place in my mind because it is iconic, but do we keep it in with few, if any, other merfolk? Craw Giant has Rampage, which isn't an evergreen mechanic. That restriction is going to knock out so many other cards (hello Fatal Push and Bloodbraid Elf). I wonder if Wizards would have saved themselves from some flame if they announced that at the onset? See above for cycles. Same for Blastoderm, though I can look through again and see if Fading made the cut in their A25. For my immediate thoughts: Path to Exile (CON) - It's either this or Swords to Plowshares. I think either would be fine, but they printed Swords in Iconic, so it's this gal's time to shine. Sakura-Tribe Elder (CHK) - Has this guy been reprinted too many times, or is it still good here? Grapeshot (TSP) - One of the 4 iconic Storm finishers. If you're going to have Dark Ritual (we're probably going to have Dark Ritual), might as well throw this in. Gray Ogre (M) - Not a great creature, but we need some red dudes, and this seems iconic. Boonweaver Giant (M15) - He's a way to enable an aura archetype, and I would argue that he's iconic because of the EDH combos. Reanimate (TMP) - Has a literal archetype named after it. It's a highly sought card in multiple formats. Ash Barrens (C16) - Land fixing that hasn't been in a million products. If we keep it, let's keep it at the original printing of common. Man-o'-War (VIS) - Basically has its own creature archetype, and we're hurting for blue creatures. Shadow225 fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Mar 21, 2018 |
|
#
¿
Mar 21, 2018 22:33
|
|
|
Here is (I hope) a link to the Google spreadsheet. I will have to figure out an elegant way to include multiple cards of the same rarity be included in the course that for the set, but we can at least start cataloging. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WQf6pPbsC-GYxtEWGU131P3T_uaVPl7dQxADKWCaHEw/edit?usp=drivesdk If I have accidentally doxxed myself, someone please be a bro and let me know so I can do damage control ha Shadow225 fucked around with this message at 06:46 on Mar 22, 2018 |
|
#
¿
Mar 22, 2018 06:44
|
|
|
I don't think there's a way to remove my name unfortunately, but try that. Let's use the prospective sheet for now. If a set had multiple cards, insert a row under it to fill in the appropriate spot, and we will deal with the counts later. I should also figure out a way to count colors and types for balancing as well. Maybe tomorrow.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 22, 2018 06:56
|
|
|
We've had a lot of people posting, so I won't try to address everything. I will say that I really appreciate what we have going on here! I can't access the sheet at work, but I glanced at my phone and someone found a great way to do the double counting thing I was going for. Kudos to whomever outsmarted my 1 AM brain haha. I am looking through some of the sets that I actually played for more commons. What are the thoughts on the following potentials?
Last thing: do we want a Discord server, or will this thread suffice? I don't think SA really has a magic Discord, so I guess I could set that up if there's interest?
|
|
#
¿
Mar 22, 2018 20:56
|
|
|
I'm fine with that idea and those three, but I would add that we include a much lower level counter like a Spell Pierce or a Dispel at common in order to keep games sane. That would also knock out Remand, if anyone cares about that.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 22, 2018 21:13
|
|
|
As for going wide then voting down, do we want to add everything suggested to the sheet, then come back and edit, or take care of things in here and then add to the sheet? EDIT: I don't like the idea of Counterspell at common. Someone rolling 4+ Counterspells in a deck seems really powerful, but maybe that's fine in Limited? Shadow225 fucked around with this message at 01:50 on Mar 23, 2018 |
|
#
¿
Mar 23, 2018 01:47
|
|
|
Gridlocked posted:For selection we should start with the big icons at the top: powerful effects, mythic rares and the rares/uncommon/multicoloured cards that set the tone for the format. Then go from there. In an equally balanced world, I agree. However, rares and mythics are the easiest things to pick, while commons are the hardest. Some of those rare slots may have to be reserved for sets that don't really have anything else (Force of Will, Restoration Angel). Still, the reason anyone cares about these sets are the big Rares, so you're probably right. Continue wading through the commons and uncommons, and use the rares to influence the voting seems like a fair compromise. I'm looking through M15, and man I understand why they stopped the core sets haha. There's not much here, just bad cards, bad slivers, and Stoke the Flames. Reclamation Sage (M15) (u) - Universal naturalize on a body. Boonweaver Giant (M15) (u) - I talked about him earlier. Stoke the Flames would be my pick...but Convoke.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 23, 2018 02:03
|
|
|
I wouldn't be opposed to switching Morph vis a vis with another mechanic, but part of the reason I brought this up is because I think that given roughly the same constraints, I think that we could make a better set. We could easily make an iconic set if we time spiraled it up, but I think it is clear that they didn't want to do that for draft considerations. Unrelated to that, the more I think about it, the more I agree with the enemy filterlands. This is the first reprint that they have had, and they probably saw quite a bit of play, even in eternal, before being obsoleted by better lands. EDIT: We've been rolling on the common front for a while, so sure let's start looking at some of the rares and mythics and that may help inform our decisions further. Here are some of my immediate thoughts: Noble Hierarch (CON) (r) - Best mana dork ever. Karn Liberated (NPH) (m) - One of the most powerful walkers ever, but to be fair it really only saw play in modern Tron Batterskull (NPH) (m) - This is what I think of when I think of this set. Powerful equipment from an artifact set. It does have Living Weapon, which means it should probably be out. Jace (WWK) - duh Siege Rhino (KTK) (r) - Not very exciting, but defined an era of standard. Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger (BFZ) (m) - It would be kind of dumb to have two Eldrazi blocks without an Eldrazi, but we can't use Annhilator so the originals are out. I think we would be hard up for other slots from here. Restoration Angel (AVR) (r) - The most angel angel since OG Akroma. Fan Favorite, defined a Standard era along with... Thragtusk (M13) (r) - A huge value piece, for better or worse. Rishadan Port (MMQ) (r) - I agree with the initial inclusion Shadow225 fucked around with this message at 04:34 on Mar 23, 2018 |
|
#
¿
Mar 23, 2018 04:23
|
|
|
TheChirurgeon posted:I can get behind this, though I'd also suggest the Worldwake Allied manlands, which desperately need a reprint and have pretty good value. Fine with those as well, even though it's probably only Colonnade that needs the help. Gridlocked posted:I'm not saying we jam every Extort card in I'm saying that as an example we could have a small number of Extort cards that will evoke the memories of Gatecrash while making them a component of a larger theme, say life gain matters, between white and/or black. In a sense, I agree with you. These restrictions do knock out most of the memorable cards. However, a cube has a different set of restraints on it. You don't have to worry about fun things like rarity, so you can roll very powerful cards en masse without consequence. You can also skip many sets in Magic without consequence and just grab the creme de la crop. Cube also caters to well established players who can (hopefully) make sense of the interactions between all of the mechanics. To your point, I am looking over the Vintage Cube list from December, and most of the cards are generically powerful, but a few one off mechanics are present. Maybe that isn't breaking anything, but you also have enablers for everything...mostly at rare. If you want to play an Eldrazi, you can play mana dork ramp, Sneak Attack, and Show and Tell. Those strategies also have synergy with say, Griselbrand and Razaketh, which also open up Entomb and Unburial Rites. That thought pattern alone is looking at about 3 commons, 1 uncommon, and like 7 rares. You could play Fatal Push, but it's helped a lot by the presence of all 10 fetches, which grab all 20 OG duals and shocklands. We are only able to grab 5 fetches max because we can't take 10 rare slots with lands when we have to take cards from weaker sets that are probably rare. We would also then have to facilitate Revolt elsewhere without the benefit of Treasure tokens. tl;dr Cube is a completely different set of rules, although probably more fun. As for cards, I can't currently check the sheet, but if we need a Stronghold card, Fling (c) comes to mind. Along the same lines, Threaten (ONS) (u) comes to mind.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 23, 2018 17:18
|
|
|
Was busy over the weekend. I will make an effort to update the spreadsheet with all of the suggested cards at some point in the next few days in order to see what sets we need to brainstorm (GETIT???) over. I think that we have made a lot of progress, just sort of scattered.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 27, 2018 21:29
|
|
|
Alright, I will fix the formulas later, but I have included pretty much everything mentioned in the thread that hasn't already been shot down. If I missed something, add it. Here are the sets that we do not currently have a card for without stealing the A25 representative (which is fine): Urza's Destiny Darksteel Saviors of Kamigawa Future Sight Morningtide Kaladesh Hour of Devstation Ixalan Commander 2015 There are a few that we could probably bolster, but let's start by filling everything first.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 3, 2018 06:33
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ Apr 27, 2024 06:50 |
|
|
Torchlighter posted:Okay, so I took the time to transcribe every card in the original A25, and a number of things stood out to me. You are a saint for adding the original set in the left most column. Definitely makes things more clear. I also agree with a lot of your points. Within the restrictions that they were working, Wizards did better than we initially gave them credit for. If they didn't skimp for value in the set, I think the response would have maybe been fine?
|
|
#
¿
Apr 3, 2018 22:26
|
|