Let's Compile Own Our M25: Blackjack and Hooker Edition

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > Let's Compile Own Our M25: Blackjack and Hooker Edition

Gridlocked: Aug 2, 2014; MR. STUPID MORON
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by Roger Hargreaves

I'm in. Do we have a discord?

# ¿ Mar 22, 2018 07:11

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# ¿ Apr 27, 2024 10:52

Gridlocked: Aug 2, 2014; MR. STUPID MORON
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by Roger Hargreaves

I think to start what we should be looking for at is iconic cards from each set and ensuring that each one is something that when a player looks at them they should instantly be able to go "Oh that's from X" and be within the correct block without looking at the watermark.

# ¿ Mar 22, 2018 07:13

Gridlocked: Aug 2, 2014; MR. STUPID MORON
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by Roger Hargreaves

I would nominate:

Misform Ultimus (Legions)
Dragonlord Ojutai (Dragons of Tarkir)

# ¿ Mar 22, 2018 08:25

Gridlocked: Aug 2, 2014; MR. STUPID MORON
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by Roger Hargreaves

The Shortest Path posted:

I think the set has room for 5 counterspells without hurting limited. Several sets have had 2-4 at common and another at uncommon, with some being at rare. Khans, for example, had 5 in a 269 card set.

Force Spike / Spell Pierce
Counterspell
Remand / Lapse
Cryptic Command
Force of Will

Would probably be fine, or maybe replacing one of CC or force with another common or uncommon.

You're basically suggesting the suite of good clnstructed playable counterspells. Which is fine as all are iconic cards, but together in a limited format with the potential at multiples that's fairly driving strong. I feel too strong.

# ¿ Mar 22, 2018 23:27

Gridlocked: Aug 2, 2014; MR. STUPID MORON
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by Roger Hargreaves

Some Numbers posted:

Also, Force of Will at Mythic and Cryptic at Rare will not affect limited that much.

And FoW isn't that great in limited anyway.

I'd be happy FoW at mythic for the Alliances iconic and Cryptic at rare.

Remand at uncommon, Counterspell at common.

Should we consider what draft builds we'd like to see early and try to design to that? I feel that is a good plan.

# ¿ Mar 22, 2018 23:37

Gridlocked: Aug 2, 2014; MR. STUPID MORON
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by Roger Hargreaves

I think pushing one really good recognisable tribe like Goblins or Elves would be great but focusing too much on colour tribal could be bad as it will detract from other evocative designs. Like for example we can have a strong Elf tribal in green and then have cards that lead to big ramp in each green/X pair with a different focus on what they are ramping to.

# ¿ Mar 23, 2018 01:36

Gridlocked: Aug 2, 2014; MR. STUPID MORON
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by Roger Hargreaves

For selection we should start with the big icons at the top: powerful effects, mythic rares and the rares/uncommon/multicoloured cards that set the tone for the format. Then go from there.

TheChirurgeon posted:

I wouldn't necessarily suggest focusing on color tribal, more that we put in a couple lords per tribe and prioritize in-tribe creatures over non. For example, Elite Vanguard from M10 over Savannah Lions if you're doing Soldiers in White, or Savannah Lions if you're doing cat tribal instead.

Then you've got creatures that leave the option for going tribal open if the cards present, but you aren't dependent on it, especially if you avoid putting in bad stuff just cause it's in-tribe

I disagree. Lords for tribes that we want to be relevant in limited are good but ones that are just marginal in a colour/colour pair that doesn't require a tribal focus waste slots.

For example if Red has a Goblins theme then yeah we toss in Goblin King and Goblin Warboss. But if White is running a supportive theme we don't care what tribe is there because it's irrelevant.

Gridlocked fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Mar 23, 2018

# ¿ Mar 23, 2018 01:56

Gridlocked: Aug 2, 2014; MR. STUPID MORON
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by Roger Hargreaves

Shadow225 posted:

In an equally balanced world, I agree. However, rares and mythics are the easiest things to pick, while commons are the hardest. Some of those rare slots may have to be reserved for sets that don't really have anything else (Force of Will, Restoration Angel). Still, the reason anyone cares about these sets are the big Rares, so you're probably right. Continue wading through the commons and uncommons, and use the rares to influence the voting seems like a fair compromise.

I'm looking through M15, and man I understand why they stopped the core sets haha. There's not much here, just bad cards, bad slivers, and Stoke the Flames.

Reclamation Sage (M15) (u) - Universal naturalize on a body.
Boonweaver Giant (M15) (u) - I talked about him earlier.

Stoke the Flames would be my pick...but Convoke.

Well the issue I see is really there are two objectives of the M25 set.

1) Show off an iconic cards from each set of Magic so people can nostalgia trip.

2) Be a fun playable limited format with more strategies than just X/Y Stuff bassed on what your bombs and good removal are in packs 1 and early pack 2.

The best way to achieve both is start at the top and work down.

# ¿ Mar 23, 2018 02:09

Gridlocked: Aug 2, 2014; MR. STUPID MORON
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by Roger Hargreaves

Do we have to have no keywords? Part of what makes some sets memorable is their keywords.

Convoke? Whatever could be any set.

Kicker? In so many sets it is on its way to being evergreen.

But like Suspend? Yeah man give me that sweet sweet Time Spiral block. When you think Time Spiral you think: suspend, colour shift and cool future frames.

Also I figured out the best way to describe this set: it's a cube. Think cubey.

# ¿ Mar 23, 2018 02:23

Gridlocked: Aug 2, 2014; MR. STUPID MORON
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by Roger Hargreaves

I think two on theme Suspend cards would be fine. Maybe one of the rares that is a call back to the classics and like Rift Bolt which is nice and clean on one turn into the future.

Obviously some mechanics should not be touched like Infect. It's just too clunky in a set where it doesn't have a dominant theme.

Undying could make a cool comeback if black has a secondary theme of Sacrifice. But again we should start at the iconic poo poo we defiantly want and go down from there.

Build The Cube

# ¿ Mar 23, 2018 02:53

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by Roger Hargreaves

The Shortest Path posted:

Gravedigger would be a great and iconic (for limited, anyway) common from Portal, which is also a Zombie.

Great card, iconic, works in a few limited black plans and even has utility outside of specific plans for getting bombs back. I'd say it's a good nomination

# ¿ Mar 23, 2018 03:09

Gridlocked: Aug 2, 2014; MR. STUPID MORON
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by Roger Hargreaves

Good post.

My suggestion would be to identify:

1) X number iconic big boys we can't be without

2) Pick if we want the draft format to fit into Shards/Clans or into Guilds. I say these two because that is the easiest way to identify draft strats and then plan structure.

3) pick what each strat for combos of the above is the one to run with

# ¿ Mar 23, 2018 03:38

Gridlocked: Aug 2, 2014; MR. STUPID MORON
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by Roger Hargreaves

TheChirurgeon posted:

We've got lightning bolt and a million better burn spells, so I just don't think Rift Bolt is worth it

Do we though? Like LB sure it's hard to say we don't have that but everything else is speculation and ideas. Again this is why we should start at the top with essentials and work down .

# ¿ Mar 23, 2018 04:10

Gridlocked: Aug 2, 2014; MR. STUPID MORON
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by Roger Hargreaves

I'm so setting up a discord.for this when I get home

# ¿ Mar 23, 2018 04:27

Gridlocked: Aug 2, 2014; MR. STUPID MORON
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by Roger Hargreaves

And this is why I support allowing non-evergreen mechanics within reason.

Saying no to them was one of the bad decisions that lead to M25 sucking in the first place.

What this set should be I'd the intersection of Cube and Timespiral Timeshifted not 100% reprinted core set.

# ¿ Mar 23, 2018 05:08

Gridlocked: Aug 2, 2014; MR. STUPID MORON
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by Roger Hargreaves

My arguement is without memorable mechanics you're diluting the interactions the draft format will have and just turing it into a core set.

Also again frankly one of the reasons the set is so lovely is because they cut out cards that were good, cool and memorable by saying "No it's got X mechanic." Which was a bad move.

No one is buying the set for constructed play unless they REALLY want to gamble on certain chase rares. Who gives a toss about the commons and uncommons beyond the cool looking box? Urbis Protector with the new frame and Gatecrash watermark, but who is playing Urbis Protector outside of maybe EDH? Does anyone look at Urbis Protector and go "Hey that guy was Gatecrash!" What about Knight of Obligation instead? A 2/4 Vigilance for 4 with Extort. Anyone who remembers Gatecrash will go "OH MAN EXTORT" so its evocative. It also was one of the greatest limited mechanics of all time, and by giving say 2 or 3 slots to extort creatures in Black and White we can potentially edge the life gain sub theme for White and maybe the value sub theme for black with maybe weeines? See all things we can do with mechanics that help people evoke thoughts of a set and help set up a better limited format than "White and Blue flies :downs:

Gridlocked fucked around with this message at 09:42 on Mar 23, 2018

# ¿ Mar 23, 2018 07:08

Gridlocked: Aug 2, 2014; MR. STUPID MORON
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by Roger Hargreaves

TheChirurgeon posted:

I can get behind this, though I'd also suggest the Worldwake Allied manlands, which desperately need a reprint and have pretty good value.

There are mechanics we can build around without using specific keywords, such as white and blue having a blink theme with creatures who have etb effects.

Torchlighter posted:

Also, while it might be cool to run two or three extort creatures, that's a giant investment, because That's two or three slots for RTR, and we're looking for at least 1 card per set. More importantly, there are 'memorable mechanics': The interaction between the evergreen mechanics we have. This is a snapshot of Magic as a whole over a 25 year period. Picking a card because it's a memorable part of a set alone won't matter if the mechanic behind it requires a critical mass.

A25 is basically a Chaos Draft, and one of the first guidelines in picking packs for a chaos draft is picking packs not because they're memorable, but because they play well with packs they weren't designed to play with. Blocks that have overly parasitic mechanics simply won't have enough playable cards to create a satisfactory drafting experience.

I'm not saying we jam every Extort card in I'm saying that as an example we could have a small number of Extort cards that will evoke the memories of Gatecrash while making them a component of a larger theme, say life gain matters, between white and/or black.

That being said I can see the difference in our design philosophy here. You see a Chaos Draft and I see a Cube. What it IS is a Chaos draft, what it should have been is a Cube.

# ¿ Mar 23, 2018 14:21

Gridlocked: Aug 2, 2014; MR. STUPID MORON
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by Roger Hargreaves

Oh god I just started listening to the LR episode on M25 and they're reading the WotC pitch for the set. How wrong WotC were.

Also Marshall also calls it cube like. But also chaos draft like. But LSV said cube.

# ¿ Mar 26, 2018 07:16

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# ¿ Apr 27, 2024 10:52

Gridlocked: Aug 2, 2014; MR. STUPID MORON
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AND A BIG BUTT
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by Roger Hargreaves

Wow apperently LSV and and Marshall like this set.

# ¿ Mar 27, 2018 06:56

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > Let's Compile Own Our M25: Blackjack and Hooker Edition