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I'd suggest that while we don't necessarily need draft archetypes, we should consider making sure that we work in several key themes for mechanics that show up across multiple sets. One reason they included some of the creatures they did was because Morph shows up in three different blocks (Onslaught, Time Spiral, Scars). There are probably a couple of others we should consider, such as tribal themes, legends/enchantments/colors/artifacts matter, etc. Finally I want to make a suggestion for a single addition: Once we're done, I think we should plan/discuss a 25-card Masterpieces set to include, with the stipulation that it include one card published from every year of Magic. I'm also cool with either painlands or fetches being the cycle of rare lands included in the set.
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Mar 21, 2018 22:38
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Currently there are 12 cards from ABU in Masters 25, and I think that 12-15 is close to the upper limit for how many you can/should include from ABU. Current list: - Armageddon - Disenchant - Savannah Lions - Swords to Plowshares - Blue Elemental Blast - Counterspell - Dark Ritual - Will-O’-the-Wisp - Lightning Bolt - Red Elemental Blast - Giant Growth - Regrowth Cards I think you can just remove from Masters 25 because they aren't interesting enough and are just there to re-use art or for vintage or some poo poo and don't add much limited value: - Armageddon - Blue Elemental Blast - Red Elemental Blast Cards I think aren't particularly strong and can be replaced by other cards in later sets without anyone getting too upset: - Savannah Lions -> Replace with Elite Vanguard from M10. Functionally the same but there are bound to be more Soldiers in white, so this gives us more synergy - Swords to Plowshares -> Replace with Path to Exile from Conflux. It's a better version from a play standpoint, because it has a more interesting drawback, and it's also got Modern value. Plus, it gives us a better Conflux card and we can use the sweet Rebecca Guay art for our version - Will-O'-the-Wisp -> Replace with any black creature you want, really. I don't think people care too much about this one. Sengir Vampire is fine here Wrath of God also kind of falls into this category too--I think we can replace it with Damnation from Planar Chaos and/or Day of Judgment from Zendikar to get more variety without losing much. Thoughts on the other classics: - Serra Angel: I think we can probably look at some other angels to replace her, like Baneslayer or Restoration Angel, if only because that gives us more cards from other sets. - Shivan Dragon: This guy could go at uncommon, but I think Bogardan Hellkite is probably the big red dragon we want in the set. Though I'm open to other suggestions--Thundermaw Dragon from M13 is another solid competitor.
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Mar 22, 2018 00:32
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^^^ agreed on Prey Upon. Commons/Uncommons that I think should stay in, that are already in Masters 25 (does not include multicolor/artifact/land): White: - Auramancer (Odyssey) - Fiend Hunter (Innistrad) - Loyal Sentry (Portal) - Pacifism (Mirage) Blue: - Brainstorm (Ice Age) - Man-o'-War (Visions) - Merfolk Looter (Exodus) Black - Ihsan's Shade (Homelands) - Murder (M13) - Ravenous Chupacabra (Rivals of Ixalan) Red: - Jackal Pup (Tempest) - Pillage (Alliances) Green: - Plummet (M11) - Rancor (Urza's Legacy) - WIldheart Invoker (Rise of the Eldrazi)
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Mar 22, 2018 02:38
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Torchlighter posted:I kind of prefer Oblivion Ring, since I think it's more iconic, which is why i didn't include Fiend Hunter in the list. And Prey Upon is obviously frontrunner for Innistrad inclusion. I think the set can include Fiend Hunter and ORing, but that's fair. Avacyn Restored was bad, but we can include Blood Artist and Resto Angel and call it a day there. Also, Masters 25 included Cloudshift, but I'd just as soon swap that out for Momentary Blink
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Mar 22, 2018 03:26
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Some Numbers posted:Abrupt Decay or Dreadbore? Dreadbore is a great card, but might be weird if we end up not having any planeswalkers in the set. Terminate might be a better include, and would be either common or uncommon TheChirurgeon fucked around with this message at 03:41 on Mar 22, 2018 |
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Mar 22, 2018 03:32
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For blue countermagic, we can do a full vertical cycle that includes Counterspell at uncommon or common and has one spell at common/uncommon/rare/mythic, where we can put something like Force of Will or Mana Drain at Mythic. Four spells, maaaybe 5 should be more than enough. Also yeah, I went full spectrum on the spreadsheet. Thanks for creating this, btw! e: Re: Kiln Fiend, we may want to consider a red/blue prowess theme, given how many good creatures there are in both we can include, such as monastery swiftspear and stormchaser mage. e2: As far as the spreadsheet goes, I think we should go broad, then trim the list down through some kind of voting process. TheChirurgeon fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Mar 22, 2018 |
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Mar 22, 2018 21:04
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Some Numbers posted:Sure, I actually like Dispel/Remand/Cryptic/Force better. I'll fight to the death over including Counterspell, but otherwise I like Cryptic at Rare and Dispel at common. I could also buy Negate/Essence Scatter at common if you wanted 5 counterspells
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Mar 22, 2018 21:19
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Some Numbers posted:Counterspell's certainly more iconic overall, but Remand was hugely impactful for the two years it was in Standard and definitely one of the cards that pops to mind when I think "Ravnica." Ravnica won't be hurting for iconic cards to include, though. On the other hand, if you wanted to make a case for Memory lapse, I'd be willing to hear it, since Homelands has maybe 3 cards that anyone would ever include
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Mar 22, 2018 21:26
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Well we may also want to include one or two multicolor counters like mystic snake, so 4 in blue may be correct
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Mar 22, 2018 23:33
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Some Numbers posted:I'd rather have Coiling Oracle as a UG card, but if we're doing multiple, sure. Currently there are 21 multicolor cards in Masters 25, 2 for each 2-color combo, so I don't see why we wouldn't Gridlocked posted:I'd be happy FoW at mythic for the Alliances iconic and Cryptic at rare. Yes, though something I'd push for with this kind of format, is to focus on tribal in most of the colors, because it's easier to connect things like Goblins or Soldiers across mutiple sets and colors
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Mar 23, 2018 01:29
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Gridlocked posted:I think pushing one really good recognisable tribe like Goblins or Elves would be great but focusing too much on colour tribal could be bad as it will detract from other evocative designs. Like for example we can have a strong Elf tribal in green and then have cards that lead to big ramp in each green/X pair with a different focus on what they are ramping to. I wouldn't necessarily suggest focusing on color tribal, more that we put in a couple lords per tribe and prioritize in-tribe creatures over non. For example, Elite Vanguard from M10 over Savannah Lions if you're doing Soldiers in White, or Savannah Lions if you're doing cat tribal instead. Then you've got creatures that leave the option for going tribal open if the cards present, but you aren't dependent on it, especially if you avoid putting in bad stuff just cause it's in-tribe Shadow225 posted:As for going wide then voting down, do we want to add everything suggested to the sheet, then come back and edit, or take care of things in here and then add to the sheet? I think we should go wide, then pare down via votes. We shouldn't even be starting voting until we have at least one card from every set on the list.
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Mar 23, 2018 01:48
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Gridlocked posted:For selection we should start with the big icons at the top: powerful effects, mythic rares and the rares/uncommon/multicoloured cards that set the tone for the format. Then go from there. I don't think they're mutually exclusive, particularly when it comes to the really versatile tribes. Blue probably won't have a tribe associated with it, but I think elves/soldiers/goblins/zombies are fine to have as options for the other four, and there's a ton of overlap with those and historically good cards anyways. You can put the 1 lord for each at uncommon and/or rare and call it a day. But I also don't think you can build a strong format without plenty of creatures and excluding keyword mechanics means it's easier to just use the common iconic tribes. This may be the kind of thing where once we've got a bunch of card suggestions in, rather than vote on every card, we vote on sets of cards based on theme and do write-ups of those for voters to read. Shadow225 posted:Reclamation Sage (M15) (u) - Universal naturalize on a body. This works out fine if we do Elves for green
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Mar 23, 2018 02:07
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I think we could probably remove one of Cycling/Morph to replace with one other keyword, but it'd have to be one of the more common ones, like Kicker or Flashback*. Suspend comes with so much baggage I don't think it's worth it, and there are cool non-suspend cards in Time Spiral. *Flashback has my vote, btw
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Mar 23, 2018 02:36
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Gridlocked posted:I think two on theme Suspend cards would be fine. Maybe one of the rares that is a call back to the classics and like Rift Bolt which is nice and clean on one turn into the future. We've got lightning bolt and a million better burn spells, so I just don't think Rift Bolt is worth it Torchlighter posted:Morph Post Good post. I'll admit I don't like Morph much, but if we're keeping it around, I'd definitely second Deathmist Raptor and suggest we move it down to rare. Other possible includes: - Echo Tracer - Rattleclaw Mystic (downshift to uncommon) - Voidmage Prodigy
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Mar 23, 2018 03:54
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Shadow225 posted:Unrelated to that, the more I think about it, the more I agree with the enemy filterlands. This is the first reprint that they have had, and they probably saw quite a bit of play, even in eternal, before being obsoleted by better lands. I can get behind this, though I'd also suggest the Worldwake Allied manlands, which desperately need a reprint and have pretty good value. Gridlocked posted:My arguement is without memorable mechanics you're diluting the interactions the draft format will have and just turing it into a core set. There are mechanics we can build around without using specific keywords, such as white and blue having a blink theme with creatures who have etb effects.
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Mar 23, 2018 11:29
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Fallen Empires and Homelands are both better and easier to pull cards from than The Dark. Go look at that set. There are maybe 4 ok non-reserved list cards in the whole set. Also I'm fine with including Ihsan's shade from homelands. He's a cool dude
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Mar 24, 2018 12:03
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To address #1, I've noticed that there are a lot of cards we want to include in our Masters 25 that were in Iconic Masters, which further reinforces my belief that you could have easily made 1 great set out of the parts of both of those. On 2, I think they just wanted to avoid printing too many cards from recent sets, since those were still widely available and much less likely to foster a sense of nostalgia. I'll take a pass at the list tonight and add in more card suggestions. I was focusing primarily on commons/uncommons before.
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Apr 3, 2018 16:18
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There's a *ton* more work to do here if we're being serious. We've got 254/249 cards right now, and that realistically needs to be more like 300+ that we trim down to 249. We're off-balance on our colors, have too many multicolor cards, have too many rares and not enough commons, and haven't really nailed down any draft archetypes yet.
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Apr 4, 2018 17:18
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