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John Smith lied about the appointment? I just assumed that he took care of rescheduling off screen. Himler told him to “trust the Reich” so I thought the deal was that he did trust them but they lied. Or maybe I’m misunderstanding. Lying seems implausible to me just because I thought his character loved his children.
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Oct 11, 2018 17:13
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(full season spoilers) I absolutely believe that Smith's plan to reunite his family involves him kidnapping a (potentially cured, or otherwise healthy) version of Thomas from another dimension and then presenting him to his wife. I guess, on one hand, it's somewhat out of character for him to do that, but I just think it's too big of a temptation for him not to do it.
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Oct 11, 2018 17:32
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Open Source Idiom posted:(full season spoilers) I saw those gears turning in his head also or how can he sneak into one of those other worlds where he is just a happy dad and not some Nazi gently caress
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Oct 11, 2018 19:13
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I don't think the Nurse appearing had anything to do with Smith, he was surprised at it too. I suspect Himmler arranged it or it was really a mistake.
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Oct 11, 2018 23:28
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CrazyLoon posted:I was a little concerned about a John Smith 'redemption arc' trying to make me feel sorry for him, but the last episode where his wife straight up tells him, she was running from him (because he lied to her about the checkup on their daughter) as well as him shooting the main protagonist makes me think that S4 won't really see him traverse that far down this lane. Him trying to get his family back will likely be anything but a 'redemption arc' and more like 'control-freak that loses them for good because of it'. I agree with this John Smith take. It makes him a much more interesting villain than psycho evil murder grandpa Himmler, he has depth and emotions beyond 'a zeal to do evil things' but he still continues to DO evil things and support evil things and even though he finds them unpleasant and lovely and troubling, he doesn't ever do anything about it except doubling down, because on the one hand he knows he's gone too far to ever go back, and on the other hand, it would cost everything and probably wouldn't change anything, and until fairly recently, the price was always worth paying for him. His conscience is bothering him because there's no idyllic privileged contentment to silence it with. For the poster worried that the show wasn't doing enough to demonstrate he's a literal loving Nazi there's the whole dream section where he's chasing Thomas and there's a tank there that literally shows him participating in bashing a child's head against a wall and remembering the conversation he had with the disillusioned nazi guy from season 1 whose name I don't remember. I don't think we're at any risk of a John Smith Redemption Arc, but I do like that he is a villain who is forced to grapple with his own villainy instead of just being a paper cutout of evil. It makes him more interesting to watch, and I think it also helps to illustrate how lovely fascist regimes are even to the people who 'benefit' the most from them. The cogs are definitely turning as far as travelling, but I agree with the suspicion that he's much more likely to do something super lovely to try to 'fix' his personal life than to actually arrive at any enlightenment. I do think we might end up with a Helen Smith redemption arc, but even she seems more catty about not being able to get special treatment than genuinely appalled by the whole society, but.. we'll see I guess. RE the Resistance this season why do I feel like the writing staff is trying to be entirely too clever about post-2016 US politics with the whole 'all we need to do is show people this poster/this film and fascism will disappear overnight', like the whole thing is the daydream of the kind of dumbass who has a blue wave in their twitter handle and retweets poo poo with #resistance in it but doesn't actually give a poo poo about doing anything. Also the part where a notorious ex-resistance drug dealer and an ex-resistance porn-monger manage to loving shoot Himmler with a fuckin afternoon of prep, was literally nobody even trying before, or what? The.. symmetry.. of the show is an interesting theme that runs through the whole thing, John Smith and Kido, Frank and Joe, the attempted assassination of the Crown Prince, the attempted assassination of Himmler.. It's like the colors of Breaking Bad, I like it. I agree with the poster who said the trailer was deceiving, and the pace of the season was strange. I'm still looking forward to next season (which will probably be the last, I'm guessing, but who knows!).
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Oct 12, 2018 06:44
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hailthefish posted:RE the Resistance this season why do I feel like the writing staff is trying to be entirely too clever about post-2016 US politics with the whole 'all we need to do is show people this poster/this film and fascism will disappear overnight', like the whole thing is the daydream of the kind of dumbass who has a blue wave in their twitter handle and retweets poo poo with #resistance in it but doesn't actually give a poo poo about doing anything. Also the part where a notorious ex-resistance drug dealer and an ex-resistance porn-monger manage to loving shoot Himmler with a fuckin afternoon of prep, was literally nobody even trying before, or what? Some thoughts on the parallels to real life (maybe spoilers): Production of season 2 happened through 2016, and we wrapped post at the beginning of November. Everything was done when the election happened, and in an instant changed the show from scary escapism to an uncomfortable mirror of reality. But the show itself didn’t come out until Dec, and as a result led to a lot of people getting mad the show wasn’t making direct parallels or that it was going too far and ripping off of Trump’s win. It was sort of a no-win situation; reality had taken a turn for the worse, and our bleak show was unfortunately starting to run uncomfortably adjacent. Season 3, like s2, was written at the beginning of the year (2017 in this case). Again, this meant that anything that happened culturally or politically in the interim could not be referenced. Filming itself wrapped in the fall iirc, so even with the potential for some small rewrites, the story was locked and couldn’t be changed. For a show like this that touches on themes we’re seeing in real life, it can be tough when the timeline of production bumps against real-life events. The writers can’t react in any sort of timely manner, so the show ends up thematically referencing our world instead of making direct parallels. For viewers that can come off as patronizing, it can seem like the show is trying to avoid directly referencing things when the reality is the thing supposedly being referenced didn’t even exist during production. I also want to bring up my thoughts on the resistance. I like to think that while the characters may believe all you need is a cause and a poster, the show itself is saying that indoctrination trumps passion every time. Look at the end results: season 2 ends with the thousand year Reich, season 3 ends with the destruction of American history.That’s bleak, I know, and also doesn’t offer any sort of solution. But that also doesn’t negate the fact that people are trying to stop it. I view it as saying “poo poo can get hosed, if you let fascism run unchecked it’s not gonna be easy to get out. You will lose many battles, you will have to make unimaginable sacrifices and probably break your convictions. But if you don’t fight, you’ve got a pretty good view of how things will turn out”.
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Oct 12, 2018 15:25
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Boris Galerkin posted:The only "useless" bits I found were basically all the scenes with that one nazi propaganda woman. She was portrayed in season two as sort of rebellious because of her position, which allowed her to get away with what was painted as a revolution sort of . She also portrayed as being responsible for the seeds of what is leading some of this seasons later turmoil. I’m not really sure how you’re discounting her foundational part in all of that, though she’s also sort of given as an adjunct though some characters view.
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Oct 13, 2018 01:30
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Boris Galerkin posted:- I liked it a lot. Every part of the series was engaging, although some more than the others. The only "useless" bits I found were basically all the scenes with [spoiler]that one nazi propaganda woman. Like seriously what was even the point of her story? She's a tool of the system who eagerly participates in the annihilation of another culture, never believing the evils of the regime will touch her personally because she's essential to the regime. I took her arc as a indictment of all those who support evil regimes for professional gain, those who know the system is wrong but still profit off of it. The character is happy to flout the rules in private when she knows that it won't affect her but is unwilling to challenge them in the public space while millions of less influential proles suffer and die for the same actions. Despite believing in her own essentiality, her utility to the regime fades the moment she finishes organizing the Jahr Null celebrations. Thus, she becomes expendable and is immediately crushed under the very machine that she helped to build.
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Oct 13, 2018 04:46
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And I’m saying that if they just showed the celebrations without her story nothing would have been lost and nothing would have been gained. The show would have taken place and the exact same themes would have been seen. She had a place in S2 but it would have made no difference if she didn’t make it into S3 for more than a cameo. Even the lesson about people doing wrong things to benefit themselves getting thrown under the bus when they aren’t useful is already taught through the main character John I’m 100% pro nazi to wait what are you doing to my son Smith.
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Oct 13, 2018 07:52
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I feel like this is also contributing to how they are painting himmler, who seems to be getting nuttier as time goes on.
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Oct 13, 2018 11:17
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As far as John Smith goes.... I took it that he illustrates the path that cold "logical" decisions can lead under Fascism. John Smith (the most generic name possible) is basically the Don Draper of the show. By 1947, it was clear that the Nazis had won, so it made sense to switch sides but if anything before 1947 he was presented as a war hero. That his success and intelligence lead him down a logical career path that has escalating consequences, but there isn't anything that special about John Smith, what changed was the direction history took. Also, I guess Hitler must have known most of the characters in the show, especially Juliana since they keep on appearing in his reels, I guess including John Smith? Maybe that explains some of his career advancement and relationship with Hitler. Also, it is unclear if the films actually gave him an advantage during the war or not, or it was really all down to Roosevelt getting shot. (Also, it is kind of interesting that the allies actually a couple victories it sounds like, like retaking Hawaii.)
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Oct 13, 2018 15:10
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Boris Galerkin posted:And I’m saying that if they just showed the celebrations without her story nothing would have been lost and nothing would have been gained. The show would have taken place and the exact same themes would have been seen. I think it's a mix of the show wanting to underscore a point and wanting to use an actor that it had under contract. Regarding Himmler, I expect him to be incapacitated for most of the next season and for John Smith to wind up as the de facto head of the Reich because Smith a more compelling (though just as repugnant) villain and it's an fitting end to Himmler's whole "destroy the old and the weak" shtick. E: And the next season is totally going to be the Reich crumbling under its own weight while John diverts all its resources to Himmler's cross-dimensional boondoggle in hopes of kidnapping his son and/or killing an alternate version of himself and taking his place. QuoProQuid fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Oct 13, 2018 |
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Oct 13, 2018 15:37
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QuoProQuid posted:I think it's a mix of the show wanting to underscore a point and wanting to use an actor that it had under contract. I guess, the Japanese are probably going to be coming under similar pressure as well and [spoiler] theme of the season 3 trailer will probably be closer to the actual plot of season 4. [/spoiler[
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Oct 13, 2018 18:02
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Partycat posted:I feel like this is also contributing to how they are painting himmler, who seems to be getting nuttier as time goes on. I like that he's the German guy who stood up to Loki in The Avengers.
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Oct 13, 2018 22:35
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I hope we finally see more of the Japanese leadership -- perhaps even actual Japan -- in season 4. There are meant to be two superpowers in play, but we consistently see more of one side over the other, and it kinda sucks.
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Oct 14, 2018 03:26
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Yeah, it's kind of unfortunate that the whole thing with the Crown Prince and his wife and Tagomi never really went anywhere. Or did it go somewhere and I just forgot? Like the attempted assassination drives a lot of the lovely things Kido does for a while, but that's.. about it.
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Oct 14, 2018 03:36
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So Ive just caught up with this and in retrospect it feels to me like they basically abandoned the plans they had for the series halfway through S1. The Crown Prince and Princess, Julianna working at the Nippon building, the John Smith ambush plot, they all get introduced like theyre going to be important and then kinda get forgotten about within a couple of episodes. It feels like they were initially going for a more slow burn spy games kinda thing then decide thats not working and change gears. Think because of that it takes to midway through s2 to hit its stride. Edit to say this is caveated by the fact I haven't read the book, they may just be following the source with that. On John Smith being too sympathetic, isnt that the point? The horrifying and dangerous thing about the Nazis isnt that they were monsters but that they were mostly ordinary people who chose to do monstrous things. My takeaway was that you were supposed to sympathise with him and be disturbed by your sympathy for him. Nobody relates to a cartoon villain, everybody relates to a man who loves his family and through that we are forced to ask questions about our own capacity for evil. This is all probably compounded by the fact that Smith, Kido and Tagomi are portrayed by the three best actors on the show. Frank and Joe Blake have some terrible things happen to them but I dont really feel anything for them while I do for Smith and thats prob at least as much to with Rufus Sewell as anything else. Random Integer fucked around with this message at 05:08 on Oct 14, 2018 |
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Oct 14, 2018 05:06
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I'm glad Julianna finally killed Joe. gently caress that guy.
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Oct 14, 2018 06:58
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Fister Roboto posted:I'm glad Julianna finally killed Joe. gently caress that guy. Highlight of the season.
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Oct 14, 2018 08:00
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I hope we get to see the next season what happens to the test girl who is now in the other (our ?) world, wearing a Greater Nazi Reich jumpsuit. Also, Mengele has a bit of a dilemma if he want to go through. Is his other alive or not ? Maybe he will send agents through to find our Mengele so he can get him Eichmanned.
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Oct 14, 2018 08:51
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CeeJee posted:I hope we get to see the next season what happens to the test girl who is now in the other (our ?) world, wearing a Greater Nazi Reich jumpsuit. The irony of the parallel universe where the Nazis build a machine to invade parallel universes being the parallel universe that is potentially least able to travel, and most vulnerable to outside travelers (due to so much of the world's population having been genocided) is great. I hope it develops into some proper poetic justice next season.
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Oct 14, 2018 09:59
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CeeJee posted:I hope we get to see the next season what happens to the test girl who is now in the other (our ?) world, wearing a Greater Nazi Reich jumpsuit. About the second part: if it really is our world then Mengele would be alive, hiding somewhere in South America.
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Oct 14, 2018 11:57
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EricBauman posted:This is a pretty interesting map from episode 2 (doesn't spoil anything, I think): I like how for some reason Japan lost control of Outer Mongolia. Probably just an oversight.
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Oct 14, 2018 14:03
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HannibalBarca posted:I like how for some reason Japan lost control of Outer Mongolia. Probably just an oversight. I think they were honestly just kind of lazy making the map, and just sort of drew up some borders on a modern(ish) map. It is a bit of a shame too because it has cropped up quite a few times over the last 2 seasons.
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Oct 14, 2018 15:51
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Ardennes posted:I think they were honestly just kind of lazy making the map Considering Austria and the modern borders of Czechoslovakia are there in Europe, that is almost certainly the case. HannibalBarca fucked around with this message at 16:38 on Oct 14, 2018 |
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Oct 14, 2018 16:36
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I did like that they literally have no idea what world will it connect to.. Someone on another forum pointed that there are a lot of there are a lot of empty places on this world due to all the genocide, which might explain why so many travellers go to it with the films.
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Oct 14, 2018 22:20
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I loved the first season but fell off in the second as I thought it was bland. Might have to plod through to get to season three.
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Oct 14, 2018 23:14
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So thinking of things from S1 that got dropped they made quite a big deal about Juliannas necklace that Tagomi had, constantly cutting to it or to him holding it. I didnt think much of it after s1 until they started talking about Tagomi and Julianna having some kind of connection. Did Tagomi start travelling before or after he got the necklace? Was that what triggered it? Like the necklace was dialling him into the universe that had what he most wanted?
Random Integer fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Oct 15, 2018 |
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Oct 15, 2018 03:32
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Is anyone else wondering what else did Hitler see on the films that scared him enough to stop him from going for full victory and worldwide genocide? I would imagine it must have something pretty incredible for him to hold back and even be killed for it. I’m wondering if there are more films we haven’t seen. I’m starting to think Hitler knew it could be possible for other universes where the Nazis lost to attack the universe in the show. The man in the high castle is from a universe working on doing so. This is my guess for what’s in store for the end.
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Oct 15, 2018 12:01
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A whole bunch of general show spoilers: Interesting that the premise that you can only travel to another world if your parallel twin is dead naturally means that every world will get "resistance" fighters. The Allies died in the show world, so mostly only Allied propaganda can make it to the Nazi world. Alternatively, only Nazi or fascist (or even that one Soviet film mentioned in S1) propaganda would appear in "our" world. This also gets me thinking (especially Hawthorn's final talk this season) that this whole show is basically that one Twilight Zone episode where the Nazi Uboat keeps being destroyed over and over- the show world is basically the ghosts of our world living out the nightmare that they would have worked towards. Also of note is that there is definitely more than just the 1 parallel world. The place Tagomi visited is probably the closest to ours. But Juliana is there, so that's not the world that Trudy traveled from, because Juliana is dead in that world. It's also funny that trying to force someone to travel just straight up frags them. Random Integer posted:So thinking of things from S1 that got dropped they made quite a big deal about Juliannas necklace that Tagomi had, constantly cutting to it or to him holding it. I didnt think much of it after s1 until they started talking about Tagomi and Julianna having some kind of connection. Did Tagomi start travelling before or after he got the necklace? Was that what triggered it? Like the necklace was dialling him into the universe that had what he most wanted? This is a book reference, and is only slightly touched on in the show, but basically Frank made the necklace (I think after his family died), and the originality and love and sorrow that went into it imbued it with Wu, and Tagomi was able to meditate with it to travel. You're basically right on the money in your hypothesis. Mike the TV fucked around with this message at 20:09 on Oct 15, 2018 |
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Oct 15, 2018 20:06
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Fister Roboto posted:I'm glad Julianna finally killed Joe. gently caress that guy. Amen
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Oct 15, 2018 21:13
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And now that Joe and Frank have been killed, that opens up slots for alternate-Joes and alternate-Franks to turn up!
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Oct 20, 2018 16:47
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Technocrat posted:And now that Joe and Frank have been killed, that opens up slots for alternate-Joes and alternate-Franks to turn up! Fingers crossed they're more interesting than the originals.
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Oct 20, 2018 16:58
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Boris Galerkin posted:John Smith lied about the appointment? I just assumed that he took care of rescheduling off screen. Himler told him to “trust the Reich” so I thought the deal was that he did trust them but they lied. Or maybe I’m misunderstanding. Lying seems implausible to me just because I thought his character loved his children. My take was that "Trust the Reich" thing explains the test. Himler probably set up a fake test and told the nurse to go do it now thinking he could fix that issue and have one more thing to lord over John.
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Oct 29, 2018 08:26
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Finally finished this season. I think since the last season, I've enjoyed John Smith's story along with the chief inspector's and trade minister's stories the best. Joe Blake got bland really fast and moody Julianna turned into a total Mary Sue. I mean she always kinda was... but this season even more so. Vanderdeath posted:I knew they were likely going to have an analogue to the Charlottesville riot in this season because it's extremely timely and that still didn't stop me from getting a pit in my stomach at seeing young white kids scream "Blood and Soil" while engaging in state-sponsored violence. Yeah, that was... something. Between this show and Handmaid's Tale, the writers have it pretty easy with just having to go through the daily US news feeds for ideas.
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Nov 3, 2018 13:20
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The idea that a world-spanning German Empire would want to re-ignite fascist nationalism in its subject states makes no sense to me but whatever
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Nov 3, 2018 16:02
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HannibalBarca posted:The idea that a world-spanning German Empire would want to re-ignite fascist nationalism in its subject states makes no sense to me but whatever The Nazis are trying to create a new imagined community by paving over the symbols that once united people (e.g. Liberty Bell, Statue of Liberty, etc) and replacing them with ones that encourage comradeship with the central order. From what I got, the goal is to make the idea of a "world without the Reich" inconceivable so people forget, in Juliana's words, "this isn't normal." The old guard is dying out and they need to delude the new generation lest they begin to question why things are the way they are. Also, the Nazi leadership is explicitly insane.
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Nov 3, 2018 16:23
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TheCoach posted:
This is a loving amazing idea, and I'm sad that there is no way of it happening.  Edit: Because it's an American show and that means that 'Murica is going to be the ones to kill the dragon. Xerxes17 fucked around with this message at 00:55 on Nov 5, 2018 |
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Nov 5, 2018 00:42
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This show just keeps getting better and better. They've really tightened things up read: killed off the two weakest characters/actors in Joe and Frank. I've always enjoyed the imaginative way in which the show approaches the thought experiment involved in the premise, but we are very much out of season 1 territory where it felt all too often that only the novelty of a WWII alternate ending scenario and a couple strong performances were keeping the show above water. Now there is tangible depth and fluid storytelling in addition to the endlessly interesting premise and fully sick performances from Rufus Sewell/Joel De La Fuente/Cary-Hiroyuki Tagawa/Brennan Brown. I think the Childan character especially is getting overlooked as a really nice touch and plausible product of that environment. Incidentally, shouldn't the people here up in arms about a sympathetic portrayal of John Smith (which is no doubt in part the result of Sewell's charisma) be applying the same standards to Tagami? The Japanese were not exactly nice folks to their neighbors. In either case though, I agree with all the takes that complex villains are more desirable. In this case, they also invite the super interesting headfuck involved in maybe kinda sorta rooting for the guy who kills somebody to protect his son from getting culled, but is also complicit in a completely abominable system. The intra-Nazi conflict is very surely being situated as "evil and willfully ignorant" vs. "slightly more morally aware/wracked with guilt but still quite evil nonetheless", which I think is a far more interesting dynamic for the audience to process than just like Nazis vs. Resistance or something like that. Plus, portraying the systematic deterioration of a high ranking Nazi official in concert with his upward ascent through the ranks isn't casting the ideology in the most sympathetic light. Vernacular fucked around with this message at 09:52 on Nov 5, 2018 |
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Nov 5, 2018 09:45
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So uhh when everyone goes into that tunnel and are told to remove their guns , because anything metal will be bad for their health Meanwhile they're all standing there with metal desks surrounding everyone, and a massive all metal conveyor belt Am I just supposed to assume it's not actually metal but some other material?
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Nov 7, 2018 02:12
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