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Admiral Ray
May 17, 2014

Proud Musk and Dogecoin fanboy


mawarannahr posted:

I’ve never even seen a bottled energy drink, what is this? also did they not have canning in the early 20th century yet no plastic?
There's a few I remember, eg I have never seen Bawls in a can. That might be a branding thing, but I would expect that it's a shelf-stability issue.

Don't get me wrong, they did have canning, but these days our canned goods last much much longer and we can can much more corrosive materials, like Coca Cola. If I canned the very acidic tomato sauces I can buy from the store in unlined cans it would leach through and cause pretty big issues with food poisoning.

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Truga
May 4, 2014


Lipstick Apathy

Rime posted:

"But...The....Boooooomers" I croak, as the youth slowly hoist my noose over the windmill - cheering.

MightyBigMinus
Jan 26, 2020



i'll be cheering them on like a youth sports coach

fantastic! great job! you can do this! i'm so proud of you!

MightyBigMinus
Jan 26, 2020



i wanna be the ted lasso of neodekulakization

Xeom
Mar 16, 2007


none of that is going to happen u loving idiots. people will crowd around their social groups and blame outsiders. it won’t be based on age. they aren’t going to blame their parents, they will blame the people their parents blame.

Admiral Ray
May 17, 2014

Proud Musk and Dogecoin fanboy


The zoomers will laugh at us for being sad about some weird dead bear.

bedpan
Apr 23, 2008

bedpan won this avatar. If you see this text, reply, `fuck you, bedpan, you stupid piece of shit.`

Admiral Ray posted:

The zoomers will laugh at us for being sad about some weird dead bear.

great Blood Meridian reference

Rime
Nov 2, 2011


Harik posted:

Yes, we do. The same parts that are rebuilt on wind are rebuilt that often and for the same reason. Turbines have fixed lifespan and debris-laden water flowing through them at high speed causes corrosion. The dam itself also needs maintenance or you have what's technically known as a "whoopsiedoodle" and scour clean all traces of civilization downstream. Just because you don't have to re-pour a million tons of concrete every few decades doesn't mean hydro is a set-it-and-forget it technology.

No, this is fundamentally incorrect. You are comparing generating equipment swaps and regular basic maintenance which is common in any generating facility to a complete rebuild. After 30-40 years the entire structure of a wind turbine requires dismantling, due to the reinforced concrete foundation and steel tower being rendered unsafe for further use thanks to the stress generated by constant oscillation. We do not blow up and completely rebuild, from the ground up, hydroelectric dams or other generating facilities after forty years. This is what is required with wind facilities, onshore or offshore. The scale of build-out required, followed by a complete reconstruction every few decades, renders it a dead end.


Harik posted:

At some point we're mining scrapyards for materials, not raw ores, so there's a finite limit to the amount of material needed for energy generation. It's cheaper under capitalism to externalize the costs and use slave labor to produce raw material and throw everything into a hole when it's outlived its usefulness, but that's not inherent to the production itself.

Please See:

Through the Eye of the Needle posted:

A recent International Energy Agency (IEA) [82] report estimates that reaching “net zero” globally by 2050 would require six times the amount of mineral resources used today. This would entail a quantity of metal production — requiring considerable FF combustion — over the next 15 years roughly equal to that from the start of humanity until 2013

I'll give you that we would be able to recycle components to a certain extent, but to get there we would have to strip-mine the entire planet. Is that justifiable just to sustain a global consumer society? Is it ethical? Are you lib-brained enough to sleep at night fully aware of the devastation being wrought so that your lifestyle remains untouched?

Harik posted:

arc furnace smelting exists and RE has enormous and predictable surplus periods where generation has to be idled. The non-aligned usage/production cycles will only get larger as the transition to RE continues and there's only so much you can do with battery tech. Dumping that 'waste' energy into high-energy processes (desalinization, electric smelting) makes sense.

It's one of those "we could absolutely do this thing, but we won't because capitalism"

Wikipedia posted:

To produce a ton of steel in an electric arc furnace requires approximately 400 kilowatt-hours (1.44 gigajoules) per short ton or about 440 kWh (1.6 GJ) per tonne; the theoretical minimum amount of energy required to melt a tonne of scrap steel is 300 kWh (1.09 GJ) (melting point 1,520 °C (2,768 °F)). Therefore, a 300-tonne, 300 MVA EAF will require approximately 132 MWh of energy to melt the steel

So some back of the napkin math: with the average modern wind turbine coming it at around 900 tonnes of steel involved, you would require 118,800 MWh to smelt the steel required to manufacture a new turbine. Keep in mind, this is merely the energy required for the smelting process and not the supply chain which got the ore there, or the energy required to take the steel billets and actually turn them into parts.

With current generation land turbines putting out 5-6MW, we would require the total output of 21,600 *modern* turbines just to smelt the steel to make a new turbine.

There are currently approximately 90,000 wind turbines in the USA. Half of those are already at end of life or will be there by mid-decade. Transitioning to renewables-only grid will require installing several hundred thousand, and then rebuilding all of them within forty years.
This was really bad half-asleep math, see correction below.

Business as usual is over, modern civilization is over, these desperate last ditch attempts to save it will only destroy what remains of the environment at a rate far greater than that witnessed during the past century. :colbert:

Rime has issued a correction as of 16:05 on Sep 6, 2021

Admiral Ray
May 17, 2014

Proud Musk and Dogecoin fanboy


Rime posted:

So some back of the napkin math: with the average modern wind turbine coming it at around 900 tonnes of steel involved, you would require 118,800 MWh to smelt the steel required to manufacture a new turbine. Keep in mind, this is merely the energy required for the smelting process and not the supply chain which got the ore there, or the energy required to take the steel billets and actually turn them into parts.

With current generation land turbines putting out 5-6MW, we would require the total output of 21,600 *modern* turbines just to smelt the steel to make a new turbine.

There are currently approximately 90,000 wind turbines in the USA. Half of those are already at end of life or will be there by mid-decade. Transitioning to renewables-only grid will require installing several hundred thousand, and then rebuilding all of them within forty years.

Business as usual is over, modern civilization is over, these desperate last ditch attempts to save it will only destroy what remains of the environment at a rate far greater than that witnessed during the past century. :colbert:

How did you get the 118,800 MWh figure? 900 tonnes * 0.440 MWh/tonne = 396 MWh, which means a wind turbine would only need to run for around 80 hours to return the energy it took to smelt its own steel.

Admiral Ray has issued a correction as of 15:49 on Sep 6, 2021

Mameluke
Aug 2, 2013
some dirty-sneaker-inbred-out of the woods-Pabst beer pussy methhead-junkie running all around town telling EVERYONE EVERYTHING ABOUT ELON MUSK


Blockade posted:

https://twitter.com/OnEstLaTech/status/1434575322465382404

Translation: protonmail is sending address info on climate activists to the police, even though they say they dont store any of that information

Lol never forget the Internet is enemy territory

Rah!
Feb 21, 2006




Admiral Ray posted:

The zoomers will laugh at us for being sad about some weird dead bear.

IAMKOREA
Apr 21, 2007


Blockade posted:

https://twitter.com/OnEstLaTech/status/1434575322465382404

Translation: protonmail is sending address info on climate activists to the police, even though they say they dont store any of that information

Holy poo poo this is kind of a big deal isn't it, these are the guys you're supposed to use if you don't want Google spying on you.

IAMKOREA
Apr 21, 2007


Admiral Ray posted:

There's a few I remember, eg I have never seen Bawls in a can. That might be a branding thing, but I would expect that it's a shelf-stability issue.

Don't get me wrong, they did have canning, but these days our canned goods last much much longer and we can can much more corrosive materials, like Coca Cola. If I canned the very acidic tomato sauces I can buy from the store in unlined cans it would leach through and cause pretty big issues with food poisoning.

The lining in the can also helps you hit your plastics Council RDA of 5 grams of microplastics per day!

Lostconfused
Oct 1, 2008

「俺達の新力だ
真ゲッターロボ!」

IAMKOREA posted:

Holy poo poo this is kind of a big deal isn't it, these are the guys you're supposed to use if you don't want Google spying on you.

Not really, here's a reddit thread on it https://www.reddit.com/r/privacytoolsIO/comments/pils8v/climate_activist_arrested_after_protonmail/hbqk8qk/

They are still a legal company so they will comply with laws and court orders. While they don't log IP information, it can be gotten easily from all the other stuff they log if the police ask for it.

At least that's what I got from it.

Admiral Ray
May 17, 2014

Proud Musk and Dogecoin fanboy


I ain't afraid of eating plastic, but I REFUSE to eat genetically modified plastic. Only free range GMO free plastic for me.

SniperWoreConverse
Mar 20, 2010







Gun Saliva

bedpan posted:

great Blood Meridian reference

apt because of the evening redness in the west

Rime
Nov 2, 2011


Admiral Ray posted:

How did you get the 118,800 MWh figure? 900 tonnes * 0.440 MWh/tonne = 396 MWh, which means a wind turbine would only need to run for around 80 hours to return the energy it took to smelt its own steel.

Mostly by being an idiot and writing that out half asleep as soon as I rolled over. Wow, thanks for that. Durrr the capacity of the furnace is 300 tonnes and requires 132mwh, so let's do that again:

396mw to smelt enough for one turbine, so the net daily production of 72 turbines to smelt the material for a new one.

Better, but still ignores the energy requirements of the entirety of the supply chain as well as also powering the rest of civilization. :shrug:

Truga
May 4, 2014


Lipstick Apathy

IAMKOREA posted:

Holy poo poo this is kind of a big deal isn't it, these are the guys you're supposed to use if you don't want Google spying on you.

in my years of being a lovely sysadmin i found out that if you want something done right, you just flat out have to do it yourself.

still not ideal since hardware could also be tainted, but just lol, and i can't stress this enough, lmao, at trusting a computer i didn't install myself.

skooma512
Feb 8, 2012

You couldn't grok my race car, but you dug the roadside blur.


Blockade posted:

https://twitter.com/OnEstLaTech/status/1434575322465382404

Translation: protonmail is sending address info on climate activists to the police, even though they say they dont store any of that information

Opposing your own horrible death is a police matter because people are making good money off it and you’re not allowed to stop it.

C-SPAN Caller
Apr 21, 2010





Admiral Ray posted:

There's a few I remember, eg I have never seen Bawls in a can. That might be a branding thing, but I would expect that it's a shelf-stability issue.

Don't get me wrong, they did have canning, but these days our canned goods last much much longer and we can can much more corrosive materials, like Coca Cola. If I canned the very acidic tomato sauces I can buy from the store in unlined cans it would leach through and cause pretty big issues with food poisoning.

I literally just had Bawls in a can in my fridge for awhile, so nah they got Bawls in a can.

nomad2020
Jan 29, 2007



IAMKOREA posted:

Holy poo poo this is kind of a big deal isn't it, these are the guys you're supposed to use if you don't want Google spying on you.


some reddit person posted:

A recap: only after ProtonMail received a notice from Swiss authorities (for violating a French law that is also illegal in Switzerland) did they start logging IP addresses for that account. The only thing they could hand over were these logs. This use-case is outlined in their transparency report, which any diligent activist should have read (not to blame the victim by any means, but just pointing out to others concerned if this use-case might affect them).

If this random is to be believed ProtonMail is now a known surveillance tool for anyone who can strongarm the Swiss.

VV- If you even just write it down, someone else might one day read it.

nomad2020 has issued a correction as of 16:17 on Sep 6, 2021

Rime
Nov 2, 2011


IAMKOREA posted:

Holy poo poo this is kind of a big deal isn't it, these are the guys you're supposed to use if you don't want Google spying on you.

nomad2020 posted:

If this random is to be believed ProtonMail is now a known surveillance tool for anyone who can strongarm the Swiss.

If you aren't organizing offline, sweeping all participants for any electronic devices whatsoever, and holding your meetings in EM shielded rooms, you kind of get what you deserve to be honest. LOL at believing any digital communication system isn't compromised by the major governments, they're all honeypots.

IAMKOREA
Apr 21, 2007


So I guess Protonmail with Tor should still theoretically be private?

MightyBigMinus
Jan 26, 2020



the way it works is they do not log by default, but if they get a warrant/court-order/whatever that says "you have to log for this account under investigation and also not tell anyone" you have to comply

it means you're safe from generic dragnet and after-the-fact logging, but it doesn't mean you can't be the target of an active investigation

and yes of course this is too subtle a distinction for the website to make clear to people who don't split these hairs for a "living"

Admiral Ray
May 17, 2014

Proud Musk and Dogecoin fanboy


C-SPAN Caller posted:

I literally just had Bawls in a can in my fridge for awhile, so nah they got Bawls in a can.

Oh drat, alright. Hmm, I've gotta go on a hunt for the most corrosive energy drinks then.

Truga
May 4, 2014


Lipstick Apathy

any onion site is still technically private, as long as you understand that at this point most of the tor endpoints are NSA/CIA

i think freenet is supposed to be better but if you can't trust tor, you probably can't trust your hardware either

Admiral Ray
May 17, 2014

Proud Musk and Dogecoin fanboy


Rime posted:

Mostly by being an idiot and writing that out half asleep as soon as I rolled over. Wow, thanks for that. Durrr the capacity of the furnace is 300 tonnes and requires 132mwh, so let's do that again:

396mw to smelt enough for one turbine, so the net daily production of 72 turbines to smelt the material for a new one.

Better, but still ignores the energy requirements of the entirety of the supply chain as well as also powering the rest of civilization. :shrug:

Well sure, but given that a single turbine will be in operation for between 10 and 20 years that's a pretty good return. The EROEI for the things depends on how EROEI is calculated, but seems to run between 12:1 and 20:1, which is pretty good. All it means is that wind turbines are a pretty decent solution for energy production, we're just really late to building them and that's loving us over and will continue to do so.

Cold on a Cob
Feb 6, 2006

i've seen so much, i'm going blind
and i'm brain dead virtually


College Slice

Admiral Ray posted:

Well sure, but given that a single turbine will be in operation for between 10 and 20 years that's a pretty good return. The EROEI for the things depends on how EROEI is calculated, but seems to run between 12:1 and 20:1, which is pretty good. All it means is that wind turbines are a pretty decent solution for energy production, we're just really late to building them and that's loving us over and will continue to do so.

idk, this says it's more like <3:1

https://www.mdpi.com/1996-1073/13/12/3036

mawarannahr
May 21, 2019



Mameluke posted:

Lol never forget the Internet is enemy territory

protonmail is the most obvious op of all time, lol at people who promoted it.

Wakko
Jun 9, 2002
Faboo!

how long has it been since the snowden leaks at this point? if you type it into a networked device a government can read it

Rime
Nov 2, 2011


Admiral Ray posted:

Well sure, but given that a single turbine will be in operation for between 10 and 20 years that's a pretty good return. The EROEI for the things depends on how EROEI is calculated, but seems to run between 12:1 and 20:1, which is pretty good. All it means is that wind turbines are a pretty decent solution for energy production, we're just really late to building them and that's loving us over and will continue to do so.

Full supply chain considerations result in an EROEI of 3:1, mega big-time LOL at the suggestion that wind has the same EROEI of Oil.

SplitSoul
Dec 31, 2000



MightyBigMinus posted:

i'll be cheering them on like a youth sports coach

fantastic! great job! you can do this! i'm so proud of you!

I had only to wish that there be a large crowd of spectators the day of my execution and that they greet me with cries of lol. lmao.

SplitSoul has issued a correction as of 17:15 on Sep 6, 2021

Koirhor
Jan 14, 2008



what about good ole usenet?

nomad2020
Jan 29, 2007



Wind has about the same EROI as the tar sands.
:toot:

Fracking works out even better than coal and oil.

Blockade
Oct 22, 2008



Koirhor posted:

what about good ole usenet?

TBH after the backdoor was discovered in Intel ME, I wouldnt be surprised if there are undetectable hardware backdoors in most commercial computers. If you dont have a airgapped machine handling your encryption on both ends, assume the feds can read it if they wanted to.

IAMKOREA
Apr 21, 2007


nomad2020 posted:

Wind has about the same EROI as the tar sands.
:toot:

Fracking works out even better than coal and oil.

thanks, Obama!

Rectal Death Adept
Jun 20, 2018


has anyone tried getting rid of carbon?

IAMKOREA
Apr 21, 2007


Blockade posted:

TBH after the backdoor was discovered in Intel ME, I wouldnt be surprised if there are undetectable hardware backdoors in most commercial computers. If you dont have a airgapped machine handling your encryption on both ends, assume the feds can read it if they wanted to.

nice avatar/post combo. great band (the chats) btw.

Complications
Jun 19, 2014



Blockade posted:

TBH after the backdoor was discovered in Intel ME, I wouldnt be surprised if there are undetectable hardware backdoors in most commercial computers. If you dont have a airgapped machine handling your encryption on both ends, assume the feds can read it if they wanted to.

If a three letter agency wants to spy on you enough to target you with their super secret malware consider that they might also just have a dude pick the lock on your airgapped room and install a bug.

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Lostconfused
Oct 1, 2008

「俺達の新力だ
真ゲッターロボ!」

Someone post that xkcd strip.

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