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Man this game just does not let up once it gets going. Maybe you didn't care much about Gonta (tbf the loc really did him dirty) but case 4 is where the Kokichi bullshit that's been going on all game goes into, as Rarity so eloquently put it, CHAOS loving MODE.
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Oct 23, 2020 19:53
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| # ? May 13, 2024 09:37 |
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 VIDEO: Accusation  From this point forward, the accusation is just a formality. You won't have to think too hard about it.     SHUICHI: If the two of them switched while the press was stopped...   .png) ....png) So...the person inside that Exisal isn't Kokichi... .png) Wh-What did you say!?.png) ....png) So the culprit for this case is....png) Kaito Momota... That is what the Ultimate Detective has deduced, right? .png) I don't want to believe it either...but it's the only way any of this makes sense. ....png) ...Is that true? Is Kaito...really in there? ....png) Hey, answer us! If you really are Kaito, then— Huh?.png) There's just no way that Kaito can still be alive....png) Because I'm the culprit..png) W-Wait, you? But didn't you say—   .png) But you told us you didn't want to kill Kaito and— .png) But...the truth speaks differently. In the end, I was just running away from the facts. H-Huh? I don't understand....png) ...Maki, are you...?  There was only one antidote, so it's more likely he died from my poison arrow. This is the truth... It's not decided yet. I could've still killed him with the hydraulic press. Either way, those are the two options. Monokuma knows the answer, riiight? .png) I guess that's how things turned out....png) No, that can't be! The person in that Exisal is— There's no mistake... Kaito is dead....png) I...killed Kaito....png) There is absolutely...no doubt. That's...the truth. I understand how she feels, but if Kaito is the culprit... Why did he agree to Kokichi's plan? ... There must be a reason for it. I truly believe that... .png) But Maki...you don't know for certain that Kokichi drank the antidote..png) ...What?.png) You saw him drink it right in front of you, but you couldn't confirm he actually did it. So maybe...there's another possibility. Impossible... That's...impossible... VIDEO: Argument Armament  MUSIC: NEW A.A.        I just realized that there are too many button prompts for the words in this sentence.  MUSIC: HYPER NEW A.A.     MUSIC: HYPER ULTRA NEW A.A.                  .png) He pretended...to drink it?.png) Drinking the antidote was part of his lie. SHUICHI: I believe that Kokichi knew this and just pretended to drink the antidote. After Maki left, he gave the antidote to Kaito.  ...to make Kaito cooperate. Make him cooperate? ....png) The swapping trick required the victim and culprit to work together.  He needed leverage. He gave Kaito the antidote...in exchange for his cooperation..png) In exchange for his own life, you mean..png) Kaito had no choice, he had to cooperate after Kokichi saved his life.  .png) But didn't Kokichi make this plan? What good is it for him if he's dead!?.png) I imagine this was all part of Kokichi's plan to confuse us. You wouldn't think that someone would plan their own murder. He went so far as to give up his life...just to create this mystery?  He's crazy... Why would he go that far? I bet Kokichi was determined to beat me at my own game, no matter what. ... ...Truth? Are you sure it's not delusion?.png) Delusion? A delusion completely off the mark, to make you think that I died... I don't give a crap if the extras in this game get it right or not. E—Extras? .png) Huh? Why?.png) If we're just extras, then even if we get it wrong, we won't get kill—  If Monokuma gets it right,then he takes everyone's lives, yeah? But if Monokuma gets it wrong, then he'd have no right to take everyone's lives. If Monokuma doesn't know who the culprit is, then this killing game can't function anymore. ....png) Kaito...I believe in you. ...Hm? If you're cooperating with this plan...you must have a reason. I still think Kaito is the culprit. Thinking of it that way makes all the pieces fit. VIDEO: Closing Argument  MUSIC: Closing Argument V3 I don't have much to say about Closing Arguments, either. To make things interesting for myself, I'm doing one pass through for each cluster of panels the game allows me to use.  MUSIC: Climactic Re-enactment V3  Last night, Keebo saw Himiko from the window of his lab.   That someone...is the culprit of this case! Locked in the bathroom, the culprit had asked Himiko to bring them a certain weapon.    She was going to the hangar to kill Kokichi and save the culprit trapped in the bathroom. However, the hangar had an electric barrier preventing her from entering.   She knew Exisals could bypass the barrier...so she got inside one!   But the culprit didn't intend to kill Kokichi, theyjust wanted to disable him.  If they really wanted to kill him, they would have shot him in his vitals.  He didn't want Kokichi to have the chance to summon an Exisal with the remote.   Kokichi was definitely not expecting an Exisal to interrupt them.    The tip was covered in a lethal poison from my lab called Strike—9 Poison.  But even with poison in his veins, Kokichi continued to spin his lies.    The culprit's left arm was struck by a poison arrow.   But in that desperate situation, Kokichi thought up a clever lie. He incorporated this unforeseen event into his plan to help him win the killing game!  That was Kokichi's true objective. It's why he claimed to be the mastermind.  Thus Kokichi's final lie was set into motion.  ...so she went around to the hangar bathroom and passed the antidote through the window.    She believed that the culprit was going to die from her own poisoned arrow. But it was all another one of Kokichi's lies. He had only pretended to drink the antidote.      That was why he commissioned Miu to make the bombs in the first place.     But because the culprit owed him for saving their life, they agreed to Kokichi's request.  In any case, the two were now working together as accomplices in an insane plan.  They had to work fast. If Kokichi died from the Strike-9 Poison, the whole plan would be ruined.    The two of them were finally ready to execute the insane lie!     Normally the safety function would have triggered, but the Electrobomb had disabled it. The press got lower and lower, and just as the culprit disappeared from view...         The culprit's left sleeve was dangling from the press, making us think he was the victim.   This would make it impossible for us to determine the identity of the crushed body. But there was another reason the victim was killed in this way... It obfuscated the cause of death, making the case that much more difficult to solve. This was all part of Kokichi's planlto create a murder not even Monokuma could figure out!   And here they are now in this trial, pretending to be Kokichi. They're trying to deceive Monokuma in order to defeat the true mastermind! ...And that's it. That's Kokichi's Unidentified Culprit Trick.   ...Kaito Momota, the Ultimate Astronaut!  ... Really? Is it really Kaito?.png) I must reluctantly agree with Shuichi's deduction— .png) ...Huh?.png) You're...still not gonna admit it? Admit it? But it's wrong. But, logically speaking, his deduction tracks... Was Shuichi's reasoning wrong somehow? No, my detective work was flawless. It's the truth. So why is Kaito still fighting me? Is this about Monokuma? Or is there another aspect to this? You claim everything is set, and that's it. You don't have any evidence, do you? ... ...but that's just speculation in the end. No evidence to back it up. So if we reverse our reverse way of thinking, then it's likely I didn't do anything, right? It's totally possible that the body-switching never happened, and Kaito is dead. Not *just* possible, it's the actual truth... .png) No, we should trust Shuichi's deduction! I'm sure everything will be okay!.png) This emotion I've learned...I believe you call it "faith." That's what I feel right now. That's right... We have to believe in Shuichi. Well, I don't care either way. But if you guys get it wrong... ... What will the results of this Voting Time be? If Monokuma makes a mistake, he won't be able to execute anyone, right? Then it will be my victory. And that will ruin the entire killing game. Ruin...? You mean to ruin the killing game itself! But...what does he mean by ruin, exactly? Monokuma can do whatever he wants to the rules. How do you "ruin" something like that? What would be the point...? Yeah, yeah, I'm gettin' to it. Sheesh... Let's proceed with Voting Time, shall we?.png) Sorry I fell short of your expectations, but I'm pretty sure I won't make any mistakes..png) Cuz I got the Ultimate Detective's airtight logic on my side..png) ... .png) I believe in my own logic... And...I believe in Kaito... I believe in you, Kaito. Not as a detective...but as Shuichi Saihara.MUSIC: V3 Argument -HOPE VS DESPAIR- Ah...can I just say something? I'd like to have one last conversation before we vote. ...Hm? One last conversation? There's...more to talk about?  ...VIDEO: Nonstop Debate #9   Alright, let's pin this down. Hm? Kaito, right? That's what you said, isn't it? And the culprit is Kaito, standing right there. Isn't that correct?  I trust Shuichi! I don't know exactly why, but he's putting his life on the line for it. So to put my faith in him...this is the only way. Everything that we've determined up to now... What if I turned it all on its head?  Time for a hail Mary!    ...What?.png) What do you mean...lie? Why did you say "Kokichi"? The one in the Exisal is— ...Huh? The truth is...after we found the crushed body, I...saw Kokichi. ... Yes. He threatened me, told me that if I didn't do what he said, he'd kill us all. He wanted me to lie about what I saw so that the trial would be more interesting... I have to tell the truth... .png) H-Hold on! Why did you wait until now to mention this!? I'm so sorry, Keebo, but...it's true. Really... I really am sorry. But this is the only way. If Kaito is risking his life to do this, then I'll stand by him. He's not doing this to hurt us... I'm sure he's trying to save us all. ... If Monokuma wants to rely on my detective work, fine...I'll just lie. Everyone, please...don't vote for Kaito. ... Hey Shuichi... I dunno what you're scheming... But as far as I'm concerned, you guys aren't extras at all. ......I'm not wrong.  Huh? It's...over.  Then you'll all get punished. There's no way I can let that happen. So...it's fine. Let's end this. .png) K-Kaito! So...it really was you?.png) My bad for tricking you guys. I'll explain everything. But before that, it's Voting Time.  .png) Kaito, no! It's just like you to figure it all out, Shuichi. You're really something else..png) So all you gotta do is believe in your reasoning. That's what detectives do. ... Puhuhu... Well said. Let's get this started, then.            Next time: so long, space cowboy. Solitair fucked around with this message at 15:19 on Oct 1, 2023 |
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Oct 24, 2020 02:25
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Well, that happened. 
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Oct 24, 2020 03:26
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... i just realized, kaito is too young to smoke. drop that pipe, mister! you're setting a bad example. Doc Hawkins fucked around with this message at 04:15 on Oct 24, 2020 |
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Oct 24, 2020 04:11
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Turns out it was actually Kaito's Wild Ride all along.
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Oct 24, 2020 04:13
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I noticed something odd in the Closing Argument. I guess it's an art error, but it contradicts the facts of the case in a pretty big way. If there's any sharp-eyed folks who spotted it earlier on in the trial and thought it was a legit clue, I'm sure they had trouble figuring out who was really in the press.Solitair posted:VIDEO: Mind Mine #2 Squished body clearly has a long-sleeved shirt on after the camera stops and the switch happens. Kokichi is shirtless when he gets pancake'd.
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Oct 24, 2020 06:31
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Bloody Emissary posted:I noticed something odd in the Closing Argument. I guess it's an art error, but it contradicts the facts of the case in a pretty big way. If there's any sharp-eyed folks who spotted it earlier on in the trial and thought it was a legit clue, I'm sure they had trouble figuring out who was really in the press. If I understood the case correctly, the shirted arm is actually Kaito's, precisely because we see it before the body switch. Since Kaito was succesfully imitating Kokichi's mannerisms the whole trial and he has never been in space at all, that makes him the Ultimate
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Oct 24, 2020 06:54
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wologar posted:If I understood the case correctly, the shirted arm is actually Kaito's, precisely because we see it before the body switch. At first it was, yeah, but if you watch the video closely (~2:14) the shirt cuff is still visible in the video after the pause for the switch.
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Oct 24, 2020 07:11
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Kokichi/Kaito had Monokuma cornered. Up until Kaito's reveal, Maki, Kokichi, and himself were all possible murderers. Monokuma and Shuichi had no way of proving which one was the killer. The person who consumed the antidote was unknown, and it's never proven that a body swap did occur, only that it might have. Further, it's not proven if the hydraulic press is the murder weapon, or if the person taking the video simply waited for the poison to kill the victim. Even after Kaito's reveal, doubt still remains over whether he or Maki is the killer. Did Kaito crush Kokichi with the press, or did he allow Kokichi to die from Maki's poisoned arrow? The students still have a chance for everyone to survive if they press this uncertainty.
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Oct 24, 2020 07:38
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 best boy
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Oct 24, 2020 07:57
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Bloody Emissary posted:I noticed something odd in the Closing Argument. I guess it's an art error, but it contradicts the facts of the case in a pretty big way. If there's any sharp-eyed folks who spotted it earlier on in the trial and thought it was a legit clue, I'm sure they had trouble figuring out who was really in the press. It is an art error, but it's actually more complicated than you realize. Here is a link to page discussing it (it doesn't have any spoilers past where we are, so it is safe for LP only readers) https://oumakokichi.tumblr.com/post/166234642260/localization-cg-error (Do note that the changes were almost certainly made by Spike Chunsoft, not NISA)
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Oct 24, 2020 08:28
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curiousCat posted:
"What are you gonna do, shoot me?" - Quote From Man Shot
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Oct 24, 2020 08:35
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And that was Full Kokichi. loving with the entire trial for his own murder. It's so beautiful.
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Oct 24, 2020 11:21
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Personally, what really hit me about this trial is that this is the first time that someone seems to have considered the killing game itself the opponent and tried to sabotage it, rather than endlessly grieving about it while vaguely hoping to stumble across the mastermind. Like, the realization partway through the trial that everything he did was to mess with Monokuma really stuck with me..
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Oct 24, 2020 11:38
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I actually considered Nagito's Wild Ride to be wilder, but that's a bit of a personal thing.
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Oct 24, 2020 12:30
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NeoRonTheNeuron posted:Kokichi/Kaito had Monokuma cornered. Up until Kaito's reveal, Maki, Kokichi, and himself were all possible murderers. Monokuma and Shuichi had no way of proving which one was the killer. The person who consumed the antidote was unknown, and it's never proven that a body swap did occur, only that it might have. Further, it's not proven if the hydraulic press is the murder weapon, or if the person taking the video simply waited for the poison to kill the victim. I think the idea is that Monokuma could just make an arbitrary decision on something and not be proved to be full of poo poo in the latter cases as it's just his word vs kaito's and ultimately kaito doesn't want to take that risk when he can just fall on his sword and keep everyone else alive instead. After all Monokuma definitely has previous on fudging things if he thinks he can get away with it, see DR1 Case 5. If the original plan had worked and the gang had decided it was either kokichi or maki who killed kaito and then monokuma declares them to be correct or not, then revealing kaito to be alive and kokichi the victim would prove definitively that monokuma hosed up and his declared solution couldn't possibly be true.
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Oct 24, 2020 13:02
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ApplesandOranges posted:I actually considered Nagito's Wild Ride to be wilder, but that's a bit of a personal thing.  That said, Kokichi trying to defeat Monokuma is an interesting angle, at least.
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Oct 24, 2020 16:18
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ApplesandOranges posted:I actually considered Nagito's Wild Ride to be wilder, but that's a bit of a personal thing. Yeah I will always personally love Komaeda the best but it's a bit of apples to oranges here. Komaeda wanted Monokuma to still know what was going on. He wanted Monokuma to be the only one who could know what really happened, so he could pass the judgement and kill the others after Komaeda imposed the random chance murderer scenario on everyone. And then what made it extra hosed up was that Komaeda died making a crazy leap of faith in his ridiculous luck powers, hoping that the random chance would give him the result he personally wanted and make the "traitor" the murderer. Kokichi's goal here is different, and didn't need to rely on any pseudo-magical luck poo poo to do it. That could arguably make it even more impressive than what Komaeda pulled. And dying to one-up the mastermind is a similarly amazing commitment. I can't argue with anyone for thinking this blows Komaeda's plan out of the water. But it's still a compelling character moment to see how much Komaeda truly trusted his pseudo-magical ability, and that he was willing to sacrifice his life in a plan that tried to weaponise it.
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Oct 24, 2020 17:02
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There's still no actual proof that Kokichi didn't actually kill Kaito. Right now, we're just taking Kaito's word for it. It's just as likely that Kokichi is simply controlling a highly realistic Kaito android right now. When "Kaito" is executed and there's gears and wires instead of blood, Shuichi is gonna feel reeeeeeeeeeal stupid.
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Oct 24, 2020 21:36
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...! posted:There's still no actual proof that Kokichi didn't actually kill Kaito. Right now, we're just taking Kaito's word for it. It's just as likely that Kokichi is simply controlling a highly realistic Kaito android right now. loving chaos mode?
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Oct 24, 2020 21:37
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While I get what Kaito and Kokichi are going for, does it genuinely break the Killing Game if Monokuma can't get it right here? The outcomes seem like they'd be - Monokuma kills everyone because he's that petty. - Monokuma says "Aw shucks, you got me." and decides to settle for the fact that they're trapped in his spaceship and he's caused more than half of them to die. - Monokuma only kills Maki/Kaito/Kokichi, and the Killing Game likely continues. Given that the attempt at breaking the Killing Game only worked via the death of someone, they have to keep killing people to try and break it again, which leads to this set of options again and is still playing the Killing Game in the first place. Option #2 is what they're going for, but it's not like Monokuma is exactly above playing dirty, what with the threat to kill everyone in the first chapter if they didn't kill someone.
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Oct 24, 2020 21:46
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Well, Kokichi's goal was just the victory. I don't think he really cared how Monokuma reacted. The main thing was to get him to say "hey, you were all correct, Kokichi was the killer! Get out so you can be executed!" just to have it turn out the person Monokuma confirmed as the killer was not in fact present or alive. Whatever it meant for executions, it would become a matter of record that Kokichi outsmarted Monokuma. Kaito went along with it because he's an optimist, and had faith that defeating Monokuma in this way would be a meaningful victory, because Kaito is like that. He gave up on it when he realised Shuichi was abandoning his own principles for the sake of the plan, which isn't what he wants. Again, Kaito is like that.
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Oct 24, 2020 21:52
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I wonder if this is really all wrapped up... Would Kokichi really bet against Shuichi figuring everything out? Seems like a tough to overlook fatal flaw in his plan otherwise...
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Oct 24, 2020 21:59
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Gotta say though, Kaito is REALLY good at pretending to be Kokichi, which I wouldn't have expected from him. He really committed to that whole thing.
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Oct 24, 2020 22:03
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Skeleton Mom posted:I wonder if this is really all wrapped up... Would Kokichi really bet against Shuichi figuring everything out? Seems like a tough to overlook fatal flaw in his plan otherwise... The point is that it's completely impossible to determine if the change took place or not. It could have, or it couldn't. No one actually knows if the survivor doesn't identify himself.
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Oct 24, 2020 22:20
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Admiral H. Curtiss posted:The point is that it's completely impossible to determine if the change took place or not. It could have, or it couldn't. No one actually knows if the survivor doesn't identify himself. And yet, Shuichi did figure it out, before Kaito got out of the exisal. Even if it was based on a speculation, he reached the correct conclusion, as to be expected of the Ultimate Detective. It's weird if Kokichi didn't think that was possible.
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Oct 24, 2020 22:28
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Shuichi wouldn't even have solved it if Keebo hadn't shoved his arm down the toilet to get Kokichi's clothes.
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Oct 24, 2020 22:59
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Yeah the deduction that Shuichi uses is that all the falsehoods in the case cover up the possibility that Kaito is the killer, and since that can't be an accident, it's far more likely than not that Katio is the killer. It's not 100% certain, but it's a very reasonable deduction. If Kokichi had done his WIFOM properly, he'd have set up all these clues pointing to a switch and then not actually done it. Shuichi would assume the clues mean the hidden answer is true, and Kokichi pops out of the exisal. Still, an excellent case.
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Oct 24, 2020 23:04
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I mean, from the perspective of the people inside the killing game, if Monokuma screws up, it may undermine the legitimacy of the killing game, but it doesn't change the fact that Monokuma can do whatever he drat well pleases with the kids. So it's kind of a weird attack to come up with.
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Oct 25, 2020 00:11
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If someone who clearly has no compunctions about murdering you is still doing it while sticking to their weird pre-established murder rules, it seems like not an unreasonable assumption that they have some investment in continuing to follow the rules and that breaking them arbitrarily would carry some cost, if only to their ego.
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Oct 25, 2020 00:20
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I think some other questions may be answered in the next few updates
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Oct 25, 2020 00:36
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Monokuma was also a stickler for rules, it's how Kyoko got him to agree to a final trial in the first game after he wrongfully sentenced Makoto.
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Oct 25, 2020 00:39
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ApplesandOranges posted:Monokuma was also a stickler for rules, it's how Kyoko got him to agree to a final trial in the first game after he wrongfully sentenced Makoto. On the other hand he will happily execute the poo poo out of kyoko under false pretenses in the same trial so....
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Oct 25, 2020 01:04
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FoolyCharged posted:On the other hand he will happily execute the poo poo out of kyoko under false pretenses in the same trial so.... Really, he was just as happy to off Makoto and be done with it, it's only worked out the other way because Alter Ego messed with that plan.
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Oct 25, 2020 01:21
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Yeah, Nagito was insane but his plan made sense (make Monokuma execute every Ultimate Despair). Kokichi can say "HA, got you!" from the grave but that doesn't accomplish anything. Even if everyone voted for the wrong person, Monokuma could just go "wow, that Kokichi sure got me, what a rascal" and proceed as usual.
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Oct 25, 2020 01:36
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Considering it was Kokichi who came up with the plan in the first place, and assuming Kaito was being true to Kokichi's intentions while pretending to be him, I doubt he cared very much about what would happen to everyone else afterwards. He just wanted to get this victory over Monokuma, even if it had to be posthumous.
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Oct 25, 2020 01:39
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As he said, when he plays he plays to win. That's really all it is. Winning is clearly not defined in terms of his own survival.
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Oct 25, 2020 03:17
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Gotta say, it takes a real long time for Shuichi to realise that maybe he shouldn't actively assist Monokuma. By the time he does realise it, it's too late of course.
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Oct 25, 2020 04:33
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Clarste posted:As he said, when he plays he plays to win. That's really all it is. ...Wasn't that Kaito in Kokichi's voice saying that?
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Oct 25, 2020 08:25
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| # ? May 13, 2024 09:37 |
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How do we know that Kokichi and Kaito aren't even the same person? Has anyone ever even seen them both in the same place? 
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Oct 25, 2020 13:23
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