machine learning: this place is not a place of honor

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > YOSPOS > machine learning: this place is not a place of honor

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Sagebrush: Feb 26, 2012

yeah it is definitely one of the worst "AI" systems i've seen, as measured by how obvious/natural its responses are. whatever it's fitting to, it clearly isn't what humans use.

john jackson: 99.9% male
jill jackson: 95.8% male

leslie neilsen: 70% female
leslie neilson: 78% male

???

# ? Jul 29, 2020 00:10

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# ? May 21, 2024 19:45

animist: Aug 28, 2018

jemand posted:

I suspect that was trained on a very unbalanced data set, as it's trivial to find simple, common words that spit out 99+% chance of being male, but "magenta" was the highest I got for female in my random samplings, and that was still just 95%.

It has no conception of order being relevant to names, and will declare "Jennifer Douglas" and "Douglas Jennifer" are both 58% male / 42% female. Douglas wins that because "Douglas" alone is 99.1% likely to be male, but "Jennifer" is 98.1% likely to be female.

Sagebrush posted:

yeah it is definitely one of the worst "AI" systems i've seen, as measured by how obvious/natural its responses are. whatever it's fitting to, it clearly isn't what humans use.

john jackson: 99.9% male
jill jackson: 95.8% male

leslie neilsen: 70% female
leslie neilson: 78% male

???

strongly suspect they just grabbed some pretrained bag-of-words NLP model and threw a little extra fine-tuning on top

# ? Jul 29, 2020 00:15

Best Bi Geek Squid: Mar 25, 2016

giving the algorithm guns

quote:

A new Israeli tank features Xbox controllers, AI honed by �StarCraft II� and �Doom�

Lod, ISRAEL � From the outside, the Carmel looks like any conventional weapon of war. It is wrapped in extra thick layers of steel, some colored in traditional khaki, some in black. Rectangular in shape, and with tank treads, its top features sensors, cameras and space for armaments. However, the Carmel�s most unique feature can be found upon entry through the back hatch, which brings you into a space filled with equipment often found in the bedroom of an average teenager.

It�s dark in the windowless Carmel, but you can see outside via a panoramic screen. It has tablet-like devices that allow operators to set the vehicle�s speed and change weapons. The side of the screen features up-to-date intelligence information. And controlling the steering, weapons systems and all manner of other operations is a friendly and familiar Microsoft Xbox controller.

The Israeli armor prototype was designed with a specific user experience in mind for the Israeli Defense Force�s active-duty element, which is typically men and women age 18 to 21. Any teen or 20-something who enters the hatch of the Carmel will likely feel familiar with the environment, thanks to video games.

The similarity is no accident. To develop their Carmel model, one of three models under consideration to become the IDF�s next armored fighting vehicle, Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) engineers and managers worked with teenage gamers who critiqued the system, which originally came equipped with a state of the art fighter jet-like joystick. If approved, the new weapons platform would be operated by the dual thumbsticks, triggers, bumpers and buttons of a video game handset.

�They wanted something lighter and more portable,� said Meir Shabtai, general manager of IAI�s robotics systems operations, which is responsible for the project. Shabtai noted that the drivers wanted the ability to bring the controller into their lap, for instance, instead of using fixed, mounted controls. �From teenagers up to pre-military guys, and guys who are after their service, we let each one play with the [Carmel simulation] and define what kind of skills and what kind of accessories we should use, and according to that we developed the whole system."

...

The video game functionality in the IAI model is not just focused on the user interface. The urban combat-focused vehicle has artificial intelligence that was trained mostly using the game �StarCraft II� and was integrated into the tank with the Unity game engine and VBS platform.

�StarCraft II,� a 10-year-old real time strategy game, is highly regarded by engineers in the AI field, according to Google�s DeepMind Technologies, which last year created AI that defeated a pro StarCraft player. In a post, the company cited �StarCraft II� as an ideal AI trainer due to its constantly changing, real-time, competitive situations, the long duration of matches, incomplete information for players, and a vast playing space that has hundreds of variables.

The AI system for Carmel was reinforced and trained using thousands of scenarios that the technology generates, according to Moshe Beutel, 44, who leads the algorithm group. One of the ways the team developed this technology was by grinding �StarCraft II,� mixed in with a few other games such as �Doom,� to teach the AI different strategies for navigation, target detection, weapon selection and other autonomous capabilities. He and his team also wrote what he called �reinforcement agents,� but which gamers call �bots,� to beat the games.

After only two weeks, Beutel said that his bots performed 20 to 30 percent better than humans in figuring out how to get from point A to point B while fighting several enemies. He defined �better� as �getting to the end point without getting hurt.� The algorithm for the armored vehicle lives on the Unity software engine, an engine that also powers games like �Hearthstone,� �Monument Valley� and �Cuphead.�

IAI�s Carmel entry presents a vehicle capable of fully autonomous, semiautonomous, and manual driving modes. It can also automatically engage in target acquisition and weapon selection, though weapon deployment requires a human action.

Despite all of the upgrades designed to ease and expedite its learning curve, the Carmel still requires operational knowledge beyond merely playing video games. �If you need to train someone to use this vehicle, they also have to have knowledge about how to operate tanks or APCs,� Friedman said, again pointing out the very real dangers outside of the tank. �But in the end you�re holding an Xbox controller.�

# ? Jul 29, 2020 00:56

Sagebrush: Feb 26, 2012

i don't understand how they can use starcraft 2 to train an AI to drive a tank

# ? Jul 29, 2020 01:02

Midjack: Dec 24, 2007

Sagebrush posted:

i don't understand how they can use starcraft 2 to train an AI to drive a tank

seems like they used sc2 to teach path finding. big lols at touch screen controls in a loving tank.

# ? Jul 29, 2020 01:06

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

if you think about the modern battlefield as a collection of semi-manned drones packed full of sensors, the end result is something pretty similar to an RTS in terms of how an AI might deal with it.

# ? Jul 29, 2020 01:15

redleader: Aug 18, 2005; Engage according to operational parameters

Sagebrush posted:

yeah it is definitely one of the worst "AI" systems i've seen, as measured by how obvious/natural its responses are. whatever it's fitting to, it clearly isn't what humans use.

john jackson: 99.9% male
jill jackson: 95.8% male

leslie neilsen: 70% female
leslie neilson: 78% male

???

it's baffling how little effort they put into validation. like, they clearly didn't try at all

at least, that's what i'd be saying if this wasn't a clear and obviously viral marketing gimmick designed to draw attention to their product. "look how bad this is!!!" we gleefully yell as we give them clicks

# ? Jul 29, 2020 01:45

Michaellaneous: Oct 30, 2013

redleader posted:

it's baffling how little effort they put into validation. like, they clearly didn't try at all

at least, that's what i'd be saying if this wasn't a clear and obviously viral marketing gimmick designed to draw attention to their product. "look how bad this is!!!" we gleefully yell as we give them clicks

not all press is good press

# ? Jul 29, 2020 01:47

animist: Aug 28, 2018

Best Bi Geek Squid posted:

giving the algorithm guns

lmao this is horrifying

# ? Jul 29, 2020 01:58

ultrafilter: Aug 23, 2007; It's okay if you have any questions.

https://twitter.com/leftoblique/status/1288172169042653184

# ? Jul 29, 2020 02:22

Sagebrush: Feb 26, 2012

Shaggar posted:

if you think about the modern battlefield as a collection of semi-manned drones packed full of sensors, the end result is something pretty similar to an RTS in terms of how an AI might deal with it.

Midjack posted:

seems like they used sc2 to teach path finding. big lols at touch screen controls in a loving tank.

but i still don't understand how you "teach" from that.

do you just, like, have your AI review thousands of examples of starcraft pathfinding behavior where you mark the starting point and destination and obstacles? in that case aren't you just directly ripping off blizzard's algorithm?

do you use it to simulate a real-world battlefield by saying okay, a zergling is a palestinian child and a siege tank is a rocket truck, go figure it out? in that case aren't you both ripping off blizzard and using a really poor representation of your environment, full of biases?

do you decompile the game and customize it to create optimized training materials for your system? in that case, why even start with starcraft?

?

# ? Jul 29, 2020 02:33

Best Bi Geek Squid: Mar 25, 2016

Sagebrush posted:

but i still don't understand how you "teach" from that.

do you just, like, have your AI review thousands of examples of starcraft pathfinding behavior where you mark the starting point and destination and obstacles? in that case aren't you just directly ripping off blizzard's algorithm?

do you use it to simulate a real-world battlefield by saying okay, a zergling is a palestinian child and a siege tank is a rocket truck, go figure it out? in that case aren't you both ripping off blizzard and using a really poor representation of your environment, full of biases?

do you decompile the game and customize it to create optimized training materials for your system? in that case, why even start with starcraft?

?

look I'm sure that the very smart people who designed an afv to look like a gamer's bedroom have it all figured out

# ? Jul 29, 2020 02:58

ultrafilter: Aug 23, 2007; It's okay if you have any questions.

https://twitter.com/cfiesler/status/1288267418121494529

If this is a troll job it's working pretty well.

# ? Jul 29, 2020 03:00

Midjack: Dec 24, 2007

Sagebrush posted:

but i still don't understand how you "teach" from that.

do you just, like, have your AI review thousands of examples of starcraft pathfinding behavior where you mark the starting point and destination and obstacles? in that case aren't you just directly ripping off blizzard's algorithm?

do you use it to simulate a real-world battlefield by saying okay, a zergling is a palestinian child and a siege tank is a rocket truck, go figure it out? in that case aren't you both ripping off blizzard and using a really poor representation of your environment, full of biases?

do you decompile the game and customize it to create optimized training materials for your system? in that case, why even start with starcraft?

?

i think it�s that second one.

# ? Jul 29, 2020 06:03

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

Carthag Tuek posted:

youre the ones putting a gender identity on my email in the first place!!!

X.400 user spotted

# ? Jul 29, 2020 09:30

Carthag Tuek: Oct 15, 2005; Tider skal komme,
tider skal henrulle,
sl�gt skal f�lge sl�gters gang

400 X chromosomes ought to be enough for anybody

# ? Jul 29, 2020 09:37

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

Sagebrush posted:

but i still don't understand how you "teach" from that.

do you just, like, have your AI review thousands of examples of starcraft pathfinding behavior where you mark the starting point and destination and obstacles? in that case aren't you just directly ripping off blizzard's algorithm?

do you use it to simulate a real-world battlefield by saying okay, a zergling is a palestinian child and a siege tank is a rocket truck, go figure it out? in that case aren't you both ripping off blizzard and using a really poor representation of your environment, full of biases?

do you decompile the game and customize it to create optimized training materials for your system? in that case, why even start with starcraft?

?

the builtin AI from blizzard is not good. alphastar plays like a human (for the most part) and the point is being able to create an AI that can adapt itself to battlefield combat. its not so much that it can play starcraft specifically, but that it can learn to do RTS at all.

the reason to start with starcraft 2 is a combo of factors like popularity, maturity, and blizzard's willingness to provide support. is there even another RTS that they could use? I mean starcraft 1 maybe, but there are probably technical limitations and the unit controls are janky as hell

# ? Jul 29, 2020 15:53

Pinterest Mom: Jun 9, 2009

Sagebrush posted:

but i still don't understand how you "teach" from that.

do you just, like, have your AI review thousands of examples of starcraft pathfinding behavior where you mark the starting point and destination and obstacles? in that case aren't you just directly ripping off blizzard's algorithm?

do you use it to simulate a real-world battlefield by saying okay, a zergling is a palestinian child and a siege tank is a rocket truck, go figure it out? in that case aren't you both ripping off blizzard and using a really poor representation of your environment, full of biases?

do you decompile the game and customize it to create optimized training materials for your system? in that case, why even start with starcraft?

?

it is baffling to me, also

i think the most plausible thing i can come up with is that they modded starcraft, fed the visual stimuli to the AI and allowed it to drive inside the game?

something like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRZz18X1Ibo&t=320s

if the tank physics were realistic, that might "teach" the ai what kinds of hills and slopes it can navigate, what kinds of obstacles it can go through or needs to bypass, and so on

# ? Jul 29, 2020 16:06

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

its not about actually driving the tank like first person car type stuff, its about navigation and fire control integrated into the overall battlefield.

# ? Jul 29, 2020 16:11

Pinterest Mom: Jun 9, 2009

like, what, looking at a satellite image of a battlefield and being able to draw a dotted line on a map or on the ground saying "follow this to get to your objective"? i guess starcraft (again, presumably modded to have terrain that resembles actual conditions in/around israel) could conceivably help there. the problem would be giving feedback/a reward function, but that seems very solveable.

# ? Jul 29, 2020 16:38

Carthag Tuek: Oct 15, 2005; Tider skal komme,
tider skal henrulle,
sl�gt skal f�lge sl�gters gang

training a tank with starcraft AI is some tesla-tier bullshit

# ? Jul 29, 2020 17:17

Best Bi Geek Squid: Mar 25, 2016

looking forward to the "Gaza strip 4v4 AP EM ~*ReLo@dEd*~" sc2 custom map

# ? Jul 29, 2020 17:25

dougdrums: Feb 25, 2005; CLIENT REQUESTED ELECTRONIC FUNDING RECEIPT (FUNDS NOW)

"splitting", a well known hezbollah terrorist tactic

# ? Jul 29, 2020 17:46

ultrafilter: Aug 23, 2007; It's okay if you have any questions.

https://twitter.com/math_rachel/status/1288514000225841152

# ? Jul 29, 2020 18:43

Sagebrush: Feb 26, 2012

Shaggar posted:

its not about actually driving the tank like first person car type stuff, its about navigation and fire control integrated into the overall battlefield.

Okay but again how is StarCraft better for that than just using aerial photos of the Gaza strip?

# ? Jul 29, 2020 18:48

animist: Aug 28, 2018

im guessing they already had a model trained on 2 billion hours of StarCraft lying around and they were like "gently caress it we might as well try to use it"

# ? Jul 29, 2020 18:56