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OwlFancier posted:Yeah I find it hard to believe that this is the first death as a result of sexual assault in the industry, it's just probably the first you'd know about. I'm sure there's been a few before this, but none of them the abusers. 
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Sep 1, 2019 13:16
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a man did some lovely things that deserved being called out, as a result of being called out for the lovely things he did he took his own life, and people are blaming the people who called him out for poo poo he did? nutty. it's sad he's dead but everything in this chain falls on him doing some lovely things. I guess it comes down to people thinking a chain of women just made poo poo up to kill a dude which is the most psychotic poo poo I've ever heard of. Not the women, the people who might believe that. Innocent until proven guilty of course applies to a loving courtroom not to people outting their abusers.
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Sep 1, 2019 15:01
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I just wanted to say lol at the dumbass who said this situation would have turned out better if they just fed all their info to a gaming journalist and let them report on it instead. Because as we all know, their experience in regurgitating press releases from publishers and writing articles about that time they had sex on a Sonic the Hedgehog bed makes them uniquely qualified to report on sexual abuse in ways no one else can.
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Sep 1, 2019 15:20
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CharlestonJew posted:I just wanted to say lol at the dumbass who said this situation would have turned out better if they just fed all their info to a gaming journalist and let them report on it instead. Because as we all know, their experience in regurgitating press releases from publishers and writing articles about that time they had sex on a Sonic the Hedgehog bed makes them uniquely qualified to report on sexual abuse in ways no one else can. byolante is a brain-rotted imbecile but his sentiment isn't an uncommon one a lot of people want to "leave this to the press" or "leave this to the courts" because they don't want to confront the deeper truth here, that our society has become so broken that getting justice through official channels has become all but impossible
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Sep 1, 2019 15:25
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There's some existential terror inherent in accepting the idea that someone can be erased from society overnight by sheer force of an unknowable collective will. Some resistance is not unexpected. It's still the "wild west" phase of this phenomenon, and people are struggling to find the words to describe it. "Cancel culture", "twitter mob", etc are just different ways of saying "this wild, unpredictable collective conscience that never really existed before and has the power to destroy". Underrepresented, oppressed, and abused people have willed this beast into existence out of absolute necessity. I don't just mean accusers. Accusations wouldn't have this effect if they didn't resonate with huge numbers of people, people who have seen and experienced these things for themselves, and who don't need to be convinced with forensic evidence that the accusations are credible, because they are all part of the same culture of abuse that protects abusers. Some people are understandably uncomfortable with the existence of this beast, but if they want it to subside, pushing back against accusers is literally the worst possible course of action. That's what made this phenomenon happen in the first place. Help people feel comfortable and safe and heard when reporting instances of abuse and the problem will slowly begin to solve itself. The goal should be to make drat sure that future generations don't have the same internalized acceptance of abuse that past and current generations have. The key phrase is "future generations" though, so in the meantime, anarchy is what there is and the best thing anyone can do is not stand in the way. If someone wants to lament that this is what it has come to, fine, but there's no going back now.
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Sep 1, 2019 15:25
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Oxxidation posted:byolante is a brain-rotted imbecile but his sentiment isn't an uncommon one As someone pointed out though, this mindset is usually extremely limited to suspicious pet issues (look at Alan Dershowitz's body of work for example) There is definitely a bias at play that forces these folks out in droves to "defend" the poor innocent accused at the expense of silencing the victims and it needs to be treated exactly as what it is
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Sep 1, 2019 15:31
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Drakes posted:The part about how long its been known bothers me too, why did it have to go to social media like that? Do companies just not give a poo poo about spending time and resources on settling things? Alot of it reeks like no one really caring and just wanting quick solutions to things. That's been a lot of people's experience. That's why #MeToo is tearing through America in particular. The previous status quo was that the powerful people, Weinstein being only the most glaring, can push past the rumors, and the rumors only circulate within a given professional circle. The power was/is massively disproportionate between the namable 'stars' and the people who want to work in a profession. Power protects its own, and when you heard something unpleasant, it was easier and more comfortable to believe that the person complaining was lying. For the first time, and this is a specific moment in history, people who've been harassed do not have to go to the existing power structure, which definitely includes the court system, for relief. They can tell their stories directly and be believed. So far, in all the big-name cases in gaming, when one harassee comes forward and speaks out, a lot of other victims of the same harasser can say "Oh, I thought it was just me." Volte posted:There's some existential terror inherent in accepting the idea that someone can be erased from society overnight by sheer force of an unknowable collective will. Some resistance is not unexpected. It's still the "wild west" phase of this phenomenon, and people are struggling to find the words to describe it. "Cancel culture", "twitter mob", etc are just different ways of saying "this wild, unpredictable collective conscience that never really existed before and has the power to destroy". I know you know this, but I want to make it clear that there's a grinding, existential terror that you might have to leave your profession if you can't put up with an abuser. Victim after victim have said they were threatened not just with firing, but with having their names blackened in the industry. A lot of people online -- and, again, not you -- are more distressed by the imagined false accusations than by the real, multiply attested true ones. That's frustrating. In these times, with the existence of the alt-right Net, anybody who was falsely accused would have as big a megaphone as any of the accusers. I don't think a lot of majority people can visualize the threat of an abusing employer's destroying one career as clearly as they can visualize the threat of being falsely accused. Which is a pity. Here's a press story on Alexis Kennedy.
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Sep 1, 2019 15:40
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I'd like it if we could also remember when we balk at the idea of being punished by 'collective will' over a false accusation is that it's really loving hard for multiple corroborating accounts to emerge from a false accusation in the first place.
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Sep 1, 2019 15:48
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Vando posted:I'd like it if we could also remember when we balk at the idea of being punished by 'collective will' over a false accusation is that it's really loving hard for multiple corroborating accounts to emerge from a false accusation in the first place. you can either choose to believe that lovely men exist and will try to take advantage of women when they think no one's watching, or you can believe that a bunch of women have pooled their collective resources to take down some guy who contributed to a moderately successful indie game for no reason whatsoever
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Sep 1, 2019 16:00
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Good Soldier Svejk posted:As someone pointed out though, this mindset is usually extremely limited to suspicious pet issues (look at Alan Dershowitz's body of work for example) Which is what I was trying to do with my replies to him. "Cancel culture" and harassment mobs who dedicate themselves to semi-anonymously ruining people are an apolitical problem. Any united bloc of people on social media is susceptible to behaving that way. People take justice into their own hands when they 1) don't trust institutions and 2) are allowed to without personal consequences, which the social remove provided by the Internet enables. Regardless of how you feel about this cultural condition - and I think there's room for debate, including a dialogue about how "new" or novel it actually is - the idea that it's some singularly leftist or feminine or whatever phenomenon is crank poo poo for people with blinders on.
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Sep 1, 2019 16:12
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Arsenic Lupin posted:I know you know this, but I want to make it clear that there's a grinding, existential terror that you might have to leave your profession if you can't put up with an abuser. Victim after victim have said they were threatened not just with firing, but with having their names blackened in the industry. A lot of people online -- and, again, not you -- are more distressed by the imagined false accusations than by the real, multiply attested true ones. That's frustrating. In these times, with the existence of the alt-right Net, anybody who was falsely accused would have as big a megaphone as any of the accusers. I don't think a lot of majority people can visualize the threat of an abusing employer's destroying one career as clearly as they can visualize the threat of being falsely accused. Which is a pity. Vando posted:I'd like it if we could also remember when we balk at the idea of being punished by 'collective will' over a false accusation is that it's really loving hard for multiple corroborating accounts to emerge from a false accusation in the first place.
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Sep 1, 2019 16:26
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No. 1 Apartheid Fan posted:Which is what I was trying to do with my replies to him. I think you're viewing the problem from an unusual angle. In the gaming wave right now, every single person who has come forward has done it under their own names. "Semi-anonymous mob ruining lives" is not what is happening. Named people are saying that *their* lives have been severely damaged. When enough people come forward, the game studios investigate, and the results of their own investigations back up both the named people and the people who didn't feel comfortable coming out publicly. Failbetter Games issued a statement saying that they believed Alexis Kennedy's accusers, and that they had cut contact with him some time ago. The Night In The Woods team have issued a Twitter statement followed by an statement to their Kickstarter backers that I can't find. (Was it linked on Reddit?) It's easier to think about an imagined nameless mob ruining lives with misleading accusations than to think about named individuals who are reporting painful and emotional parts of their lives, and whose stories are (so far) standing up to examination. There's an iceberg right drat here. Let's acknowledge it.
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Sep 1, 2019 16:32
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tithin posted:There's a *lot* of stuff in this. It's best to read just the defendants and plaintiff's motions. That guy and the rest of twitter aren't practicing law in Texas which has it's own laws and interpretations from whichever state they practice (or don't practice in). https://drive.google.com/file/d/17oDZ1kt9drHZ2TaulYZFxzMV_W9P733-/view This is the most recent filling in the case from the plaintiff. The case is in the SLAAP/ANTI-SLAAP (in Texas "TCPA"  portion of the trial with a TCPA hearing in early september. That's when the Judge will decide to throw out the case or not. The big issues are defamation and then conspiracy to get the Fullmetal cancelled from contracted convention appearances and voice acting gigs. The Accusers have named witnesses who deny they saw anything or had any issues.
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Sep 1, 2019 16:32
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ipaid10buxforthis posted:It's best to read just the defendants and plaintiff's motions. That guy and the rest of twitter aren't practicing law in Texas which has it's own laws and interpretations from whichever state they practice (or don't practice in). it's a fun game to, yknow, see a post like this and click on the post history and go "ahhh, I understand, and also extremely expected"
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Sep 1, 2019 16:38
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Vando posted:I'd like it if we could also remember when we balk at the idea of being punished by 'collective will' over a false accusation is that it's really loving hard for multiple corroborating accounts to emerge from a false accusation in the first place. Its pretty easy if multiple parties conspired to do so. You only have to pretend conspiracy isn't a real thing if you're looking to gain from it. Prokhor posted:it's a fun game to, yknow, see a post like this and click on the post history and go "ahhh, I understand, and also extremely expected" It's also a fun game to ignore the motions in a lawsuit. They're pretty long. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 1, 2019 16:40
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Arsenic Lupin posted:I think you're viewing the problem from an unusual angle. Oh, I'm not saying I disagree with you. Even if you believe Holowka was "driven" to suicide by the social response to the public accusations, Zoe Quinn isn't responsible for that or a conspirator or whatever the gently caress Byolante was trying to say, and the "mob" I'm referring to are people acting on the accuser's behalf - often without regard for what the accuser might actually want, expect, or consider fair - in the pursuit of justice, or just something to do. I have no idea if it's happening with this specific case or not and I was speaking more generally, but if it is, it's the people pressuring Holowka's industry contacts and former colleagues and friends to issue a statement or asking them if they knew or whatever an hour after the accusations hit. Just like anybody who's been harassing Zoe Quinn for years over GG bullshit isn't some famous person you've heard of, even a right-wing journalist or whatever, it's a bunch of anonymous busybodies and creeps. ipaid10buxforthis posted:You only have to pretend conspiracy isn't a real thing if you're looking to gain from it. Maybe you can offer what Byolante for "some reason" refused to offer me: a motive for why a group of people would conspire to destroy Alec Holowka's career.
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Sep 1, 2019 16:43
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Failbetter Games issued a statement saying that they believed Alexis Kennedy's accusers, and that they had cut contact with him some time ago. The Night In The Woods team have issued a Twitter statement followed by an statement to their Kickstarter backers that I can't find. (Was it linked on Reddit?)
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Sep 1, 2019 16:46
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Volte posted:But instead of saying "this is terrifying, we should not be doing this, shame on those who participate in cancel culture", the correct thought process is "this is terrifying, we should not have to do this, let's do everything we can to get past the point where this is necessary". Either way, I wouldn't consider this an appropriate venue for discussing such theoretical solutions, and trying to switch the scope of a thread like this to "the bigger picture" or whatever is only going to piss people off because it looks like you're trying to talk past what is happening irl right now in order to fixate on theory. Like don't feel too bad, you're only musing, sure, but be aware it will rub people the wrong way.
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Sep 1, 2019 16:47
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No. 1 Apartheid Fan posted:Maybe you can offer what Byolante for "some reason" refused to offer me: a motive for why a group of people would conspire to destroy Alec Holowka's career. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_Girls Jealousy, Envy, Malice, are good places to start. Wasn't Holowkwa questioning Quinn about her Kickstarter game that's not being developed? Sounds like he fell out of favor and had to be punished.
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Sep 1, 2019 16:52
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ipaid10buxforthis posted:It's best to read just the defendants and plaintiff's motions. That guy and the rest of twitter aren't practicing law in Texas which has it's own laws and interpretations from whichever state they practice (or don't practice in). But yeah, keep on thinking there's a massive cabal of lying harpies trying to take down men, there pal. Accordion Man fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Sep 1, 2019 |
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Sep 1, 2019 16:53
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I can't believe someone killed himself over a tweet by zoe quinn, of all people.
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Sep 1, 2019 16:55
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Accordion Man posted:Vic creeping on underage girls was an open secret for more than a decade, so much so that even the con-going public knew about it. I know I first heard about it a long rear end time ago. Yeah, I remember hearing about it when the Risembool Rangers really started getting big, so around 2003/2004 or so. And I know it'd been whispered before even that.
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Sep 1, 2019 16:56
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If y'all don't really wanna read twitter lawyer dunking on animes there is a whole real newspaper article https://www.dallasnews.com/news/courts/2019/08/03/anime-gets-its-metoo-moment-in-clash-between-dallas-area-voice-actors/
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Sep 1, 2019 16:57
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ipaid10buxforthis posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_Girls Evidence? Well, would you please consider this 2004 comedy film with Lindsay Lohan.
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Sep 1, 2019 16:58
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You can date your followers in cultist simulator. That always seemed kinda skeevy. Anyways that is my two cents I'm gonna back out of this thread now.
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Sep 1, 2019 17:00
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Accordion Man posted:Vic creeping on underage girls was an open secret for more than a decade, so much so that even the con-going public knew about it. I know I first heard about it a long rear end time ago. Sure you heard about it, but did you actually see anything? did you warn fellow con goers and con owners about the menace that Fullmetal pedophile was? if you didn't do or say anything, why not? Is it okay to let this pedophile hurt more victims? The problem with the vic rumor mill is that it's all rumors and nothing really happened until 2019. Something coming out of the lawsuit is that there were Rumors against Funimation and their employees too. the voice of vegeta offering voice acting roles in exchange for sex is something that's been rumored for years as well. I'm sure you'll agree that a rumor existing is different from it it being true or a lie. Prokhor posted:Evidence? Well, would you please consider this 2004 comedy film with Lindsay Lohan. You asked for a reason, not evidence. Jealousy, envy, and malice are reasons why people would want to destroy someone's lives. The evidence may or may not be available shortly. Its quickest of Quinn publishes all the communications between her and Holowak because it'll exonerate her if she's innocent. One of the rumors is that Holowak didn't like that Quinn took kickstarter money for a game and never worked on it. The rumor exists so it must be true. ipaid10buxforthis fucked around with this message at 17:04 on Sep 1, 2019 |
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Sep 1, 2019 17:00
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Prokhor posted:Evidence? Well, would you please consider this 2004 comedy film with Lindsay Lohan. idiots like the above (whoever's alt he is) are always going to be around, but i'm getting more concerned/irritated by the growing number of hand-wringing liberal types immediately hand-wringing about "calling the cops" or "contacting social services" they're everywhere and as usual they're paving the way for people like this dipshit to seize control of the conversation again
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Sep 1, 2019 17:02
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ipaid10buxforthis
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Sep 1, 2019 17:03
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There need to be better systems in place for reporting and responding to abusers than airing this poo poo out in the court of public opinion. Holowka was a troubled person who, according to his sister, was doing better in recent times and was on the path to rehabilitation. Announcing his worst crimes to the world, blacklisting him from the industry and destroying his life robbed him of that chance to be a better person. I don't blame Quinn for this, with no other recourse her options were to stay silent about it or scream it from the rooftops. The whole situation is tragic and seeing as the battle lines being drawn are between people who insist that Holowka was falsely accused and people who's take is "a lovely person killed himself wygd", I have little hope that anything will be learned from this.
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Sep 1, 2019 17:04
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Guest posted:There need to be better systems in place for reporting and responding to abusers than airing this poo poo out in the court of public opinion there won't be, ever. what next?
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Sep 1, 2019 17:05
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Really weird to see people describing Gamergate (anonymous mobs of people trying to take down individuals) and labeling them as leftists or women
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Sep 1, 2019 17:05
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Guest posted:There need to be better systems in place for reporting and responding to abusers than airing this poo poo out in the court of public opinion "the systems" to which you refer have utterly failed and have been doing so for a very long time
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Sep 1, 2019 17:08
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ipaid10buxforthis posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_Girls 
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Sep 1, 2019 17:09
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Guest posted:There need to be better systems in place for reporting and responding to abusers than airing this poo poo out in the court of public opinion. Holowka was a troubled person who, according to his sister, was doing better in recent times and was on the path to rehabilitation. Announcing his worst crimes to the world, blacklisting him from the industry and destroying his life robbed him of that chance to be a better person. I don't blame Quinn for this, with no other recourse her options were to stay silent about it or scream it from the rooftops. The whole situation is tragic and seeing as the battle lines being drawn are between people who insist that Holowka was falsely accused and people who's take is "a lovely person killed himself wygd", I have little hope that anything will be learned from this. The better system is filing a report with the local police and the courts with restraining orders. Arguments against it is that lying to the police can result in charges so the incidents have to have really happened and "he said, she said" ordeals won't give the necessary results. Restraining orders get issued and domestic violence types get arrested and sent to jail.
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Sep 1, 2019 17:10
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Vando posted:Until we figure out a way for the chaos of humanity to always come down on the side of performing morally good acts, this is always going to be a problem. Remember that even a judicial system working as perfectly as can be imagined would still technically be a manifestation of "cancel culture", just performed via a societal institution acting on behalf of the wronged. edit: When I said "Let's do what we can do get past the point where this is necessary" I specifically meant washing abusive people out of positions of influence and power and refusing to tolerate it going forward. That's not theoretical, that's what's actually starting to happen right now, and I'm happy for it. Volte fucked around with this message at 17:14 on Sep 1, 2019 |
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Sep 1, 2019 17:10
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Byolante posted:Zoe Quinn is a bit part player in a seriously sick and toxic community built on destroying people for likes.
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Sep 1, 2019 17:12
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Endorph posted:why the gently caress did this guy only get a one day probation, lol the forums still have TFR, we're sick too
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Sep 1, 2019 17:13
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Oxxidation posted:there won't be, ever. what next? Ciaphas posted:"the systems" to which you refer have utterly failed and have been doing so for a very long time I'm not an expert on US domestic violence law but my understanding is it's pretty grim when compared to what's in place in other countries. Not sure where this attitude of "the system sucks and it can never be better" comes from.
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Sep 1, 2019 17:13
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How can we create a healthier industry that doesn't protect abusers, and instead protects victims who would be targeted by abusers?
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Sep 1, 2019 17:14
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Andrast posted:ipaid10buxforthis I wish they hadn't.
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