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Invalid Validation
Jan 13, 2008

DON'T DOUBLE DOWN ON YOUR STUPID SHIT JUST CAUSE YOU THINK IT'S FUNNY. YOU MAKE STUPID FUCKING DECISIONS ALL THE TIME THEN DOUBLE DOWN LIKE A PETULANT CHILD. GOD I FUCKING HATE YOU SO MUCH SOMETIMES.

It’s kind of funny how little time he spent on the relationship with characters people actually like considering how much time he spent on every other little lovely relationship there was (hey Gawyn). You call it subtle I call it hokey.

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VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?





College Slice

Invalid Validation posted:

It’s kind of funny how little time he spent on the relationship with characters people actually like considering how much time he spent on every other little lovely relationship there was (hey Gawyn). You call it subtle I call it hokey.

Maybe there's an inverse relation there *strokes chin*

bell jar
Feb 25, 2009

Please bitches. If nothing else I am a gentleman

Vavrek posted:

It's actually nicely foreshadowed back in The Shadow Rising and The Fires of Heaven.

fake edit: Uh, note for those reading the series for the first time. While I'm quoting from books 4 and 5, these are effectively spoilers for a surprise at the end of Towers of Midnight, book 13. (I think?)

In TSR:
“Have you ever been in love, Moiraine?”

What a startling question. Elayne could not imagine the Aes Sedai in love. Moiraine was Blue Ajah, and it was said Blue sisters gave all their passions to causes.

The slender woman was not at all taken aback. For a long moment she looked levelly at the pair of them, each with an arm around the other. Finally she said, “I could wager I know the face of the man I will marry better than either of you knows that of your future husband.”

Egwene gaped in surprise.

“Who?” Elayne gasped.

The Aes Sedai appeared regretful of having spoken. “Perhaps I only meant we share an ignorance. Do not read too much into a few words.” She looked at Nynaeve consideringly. “Should I ever choose a man—should, I say—it will not be Lan. That much I will say.”


This one is kind of dubious but the Kuleshov effect made me think it was involved when listening to the book:
Thom seemed to vanish by sleight of hand; Mat had no idea what occupied the gleeman, but he was seldom to be found, day or night. Moiraine,

Moiraine to Thom, getting him to go with Elayne and Nynaeve:
"And I will see you again. You will survive Tarabon."

Why exactly does she know this so well that she can speak it as plain truth? What did Moiraine ask the aelfinn?



Then, in The Fires of Heaven, after bodychecking Lanfear in what remains my favorite example of dealing with a Forsaken, who is her second letter for? Thom.

I think it's even called out by her at the time of the proper reveal. Sometimes things develop behind the scenes and your focus wasn't on them, and so they come as a surprise even if they were long in the coming.

My favourite interpretation, upon re-reading EotW, is that Moiraine and Thom knew each other from well before meeting in the Two Rivers. Their initial conversation is quite funny if you consider that they're both trying not to give away the other. Thom knows that Moiraine is an Aes Sedai, and Moiraine knows that Thom was a court bard, but they're both trying to feel out each other's current guise without giving it away to the boys. I think that they may have had a small relationship before everything went down with his nephew and the Red Ajah

bell jar fucked around with this message at 23:30 on May 17, 2020

bell jar
Feb 25, 2009

Please bitches. If nothing else I am a gentleman

Going back to the small details chat, I laughed out loud when Perrin's warhammer is forged. They basically called the power wrought hammer that shoots lightnings Mjolnir

silvergoose
Mar 18, 2006

IT IS SAID THE TEARS OF THE BWEENIX CAN HEAL ALL WOUNDS



bell jar posted:

Going back to the small details chat, I laughed out loud when Perrin's warhammer is forged. They basically called the power wrought hammer that shoots lightnings Mjolnir

Not just basically. Literally. It's clearly the old tongue name-changed-through-myth of it. Love that part.

Old Kentucky Shark
May 25, 2012

If you think you're gonna get sympathy from the shark, well then, you won't.



bell jar posted:

My favourite interpretation, upon re-reading EotW, is that Moiraine and Thom knew each other from well before meeting in the Two Rivers. Their initial conversation is quite funny if you consider that they're both trying not to give away the other. Thom knows that Moiraine is an Aes Sedai, and Moiraine knows that Thom was a court bard, but they're both trying to feel out each other's current guise without giving it away to the boys. I think that they may have had a small relationship before everything went down with his nephew and the Red Ajah

Of course she knew Thom.

He killed her half-brother.

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers

Old Kentucky Shark posted:

Of course she knew Thom.

He killed her half-brother.

that was in tgh

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?





College Slice

Old Kentucky Shark posted:

Of course she knew Thom.

He killed her half-brother.

At which time Moiraine was already in the White Tower, though, right? Thom was probably naturally wary that Moiraine knew about him being more than a court bard, though except for the fact that little escapes Moiraine I would have said she wouldn’t necessarily have known Thom.

But since Moiraine is Moiraine ...



VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 00:58 on May 18, 2020

Old Kentucky Shark
May 25, 2012

If you think you're gonna get sympathy from the shark, well then, you won't.



Comrade Blyatlov posted:

that was in tgh

No, that was her cousin.

Her brother was Tarangil, Elayne's dad who Thom also killed.

Old Kentucky Shark fucked around with this message at 00:58 on May 18, 2020

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers

Wait, what? I don't remember that. Where is that said?

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers

Oh, found it. Yeah, I could see that.

So basically, Thom is far and away the most interesting character who has done poo poo most people would never even dream of, and he is a supporting character at best.

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?





College Slice

Comrade Blyatlov posted:

Wait, what? I don't remember that. Where is that said?

In TGH, events are set in motion that get Thom's then-girlfriend killed by Galldrian's men, Thom retaliates by assassinating Galldrian, the King.

Note that Galldrian Riatin is House Riatin, rivals of House Damodred, so he's probably not actually related to Moiraine except very distantly.

In TSR, Moiraine and Thom lay most of their cards on the table before going in their separate directions from the Stone of Tear (except for something Moiraine holds back ...) and Moiraine makes it clear that she knows pretty much everything--that Thom was Morgase's devoted fixer, that Thom orchestrated Taringail's "hunting accident", etc.

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 01:05 on May 18, 2020

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers

Thom Ehrmentraut

Mat Cauthon
Jan 2, 2006

The more tragic things get, the more I feel like laughing.

Fallen Rib

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:

At which time Moiraine was already in the White Tower, though, right? Thom was probably naturally wary that Moiraine knew about him being more than a court bard, though except for the fact that little escapes Moiraine I would have said she wouldn’t necessarily have known Thom.

But since Moiraine is Moiraine ...





Safe to assume that she knew basically everything. Its Moiraine.

Comrade Blyatlov posted:

Oh, found it. Yeah, I could see that.

So basically, Thom is far and away the most interesting character who has done poo poo most people would never even dream of, and he is a supporting character at best.

Thom is definitely in my top 3 favorite characters for this reason alone. In any other story or any other Age he'd be a Hero in his own right.

Comrade Blyatlov posted:

Thom Ehrmentraut

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?





College Slice

Mat Cauthon posted:

Safe to assume that she knew basically everything. Its Moiraine.

Moiraine's letter to Rand at the end of TFoH owns on so many levels, but especially that she admits she knew about "Jasin Nateal" all along.

Khizan
Jul 30, 2013



bell jar posted:

My favourite interpretation, upon re-reading EotW, is that Moiraine and Thom knew each other from well before meeting in the Two Rivers. Their initial conversation is quite funny if you consider that they're both trying not to give away the other. Thom knows that Moiraine is an Aes Sedai, and Moiraine knows that Thom was a court bard, but they're both trying to feel out each other's current guise without giving it away to the boys. I think that they may have had a small relationship before everything went down with his nephew and the Red Ajah

They wouldn't even have to have met each other to know this. Thom is definitely experienced enough to know the 'ageless' face of an Aes Sedai when he sees one, and Moiraine was Blue Ajah and would almost certainly have known of Thom even if she had never met him, what with him being Morgase's onetime lover and fixer.

Khizan fucked around with this message at 02:00 on May 18, 2020

Old Kentucky Shark
May 25, 2012

If you think you're gonna get sympathy from the shark, well then, you won't.



VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:

At which time Moiraine was already in the White Tower, though, right? Thom was probably naturally wary that Moiraine knew about him being more than a court bard, though except for the fact that little escapes Moiraine I would have said she wouldn’t necessarily have known Thom.

But since Moiraine is Moiraine ...

I checked the timeline; that would have been just barely post-New Spring, so Moiraine was already raised to the shawl and definitely knocking around, messing about with politics and prophecies by that point, so she could have been aware of it as it happened, but she almost certainly wouldn't have been anywhere near Andor because Elaida was already installed as advisor to the Queen by this point.

Mat Cauthon posted:

Thom is definitely in my top 3 favorite characters for this reason alone. In any other story or any other Age he'd be a Hero in his own right.
The best part is that none of it's thrown in you face, and you don't ever have to pick up on any of it to enjoy the books, but it's definitely there to be teased out, if you start wondering why all these dead people with similar last names keep getting mentioned.

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?





College Slice

I was peeking through Thom and Moiraine's interactions

quote:

Now there was a beautiful woman, with every grace a man could want, including laughing at his quips. Fool! Old fool! She’s Aes Sedai, and you’re too tired to think straight.

e: what's even better here is Thom was casually arranging the deaths of Tairen lords right before, to quietly help Rand cement his rule

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 04:11 on May 18, 2020

The Neal!
Sep 3, 2004

HAY GUYZ! I want to be a director

Mat Cauthon posted:

Thom is definitely in my top 3 favorite characters for this reason alone. In any other story or any other Age he'd be a Hero in his own right.

Lucky he can't channel, that's a textbook 'why I became forsaken' backstory

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers

If Thom was Forsaken the books would have ended with Rand and Tam getting got as they left their farm at the start of EOTW

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE


VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:

Moiraine's letter to Rand at the end of TFoH owns on so many levels, but especially that she admits she knew about "Jasin Nateal" all along.

I think it owns so much because she warns Rand specifically to be as wary of Alviarin (head of the Black Ajah!) as of Verin (very surprisingly also a member of the Black Ajah!). On first read I assumed she was referring to the secret letter Alviarin sent Rand just a few days earlier, but I wonder if Moiraine suspected more. Also, she must have had some thoughts after learning that Verin clearly lied (to Perrin and Mat in The Great Hunt: "Moiraine sent me"), which I actually didn't pick up at first, either.

In any case the letter is really great. I wonder how you can show it on screen. The cutting words "You will do well" that make Rand cry... that will be difficult to translate to the TV show.

silvergoose
Mar 18, 2006

IT IS SAID THE TEARS OF THE BWEENIX CAN HEAL ALL WOUNDS



That's the type of thing they'd do in her voice, even though it's written in the book.

Khizan
Jul 30, 2013



Just have Rand read the letter while she does a voiceover, easy enough.

Atlas Hugged
Mar 12, 2007


Put your arms around me,
fiddly digits, itchy britches
I love you all


Thom just being a supporting character and his machinations often happening off-screen is probably Wheel of Time's biggest distinction from Game of Thrones. I can only imagine a hell-world where Thom spends multiple books meeting people in dark corners, writing letters to be sent by ravens, and plotting dinner parties before something finally happens.

Instead, we're shown in book 1 that he's quite capable of handling himself and then his backstory gets sprinkled in throughout after he does something insanely heroic. Then all Thom needs is the odd push or shove and poo poo goes down without thousands of pages being spent to agonize over it.

That was valuable real estate for spankings and skirt smoothings.

Invalid Validation
Jan 13, 2008

DON'T DOUBLE DOWN ON YOUR STUPID SHIT JUST CAUSE YOU THINK IT'S FUNNY. YOU MAKE STUPID FUCKING DECISIONS ALL THE TIME THEN DOUBLE DOWN LIKE A PETULANT CHILD. GOD I FUCKING HATE YOU SO MUCH SOMETIMES.

And about 7 books worth of Elayne’s boring queen politics.

Johnny Joestar
Oct 21, 2010

Don't shoot him?

...
...





to be fair, anything focusing on thom would have included just as much skirt smoothing, just from different characters

you won't escape it

COOL CORN
Jun 1, 2003

If we vanished tomorrow, no organism on this planet would miss us.
Nothing in nature needs us.




Buglord

(Current status: about 10% through TSR)

I love how Thom is just like "why the gently caress haven't I left Tear yet? I should have left weeks ago. Ah well, ta'verens gonna ta'vere I guess"

Old Kentucky Shark
May 25, 2012

If you think you're gonna get sympathy from the shark, well then, you won't.



Rereading Fires of Heaven: I don't understand why, even using Elayne-logic, she thought the elephant tamer lady would drop everything and travel with her.

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?





College Slice

Old Kentucky Shark posted:

Rereading Fires of Heaven: I don't understand why, even using Elayne-logic, she thought the elephant tamer lady would drop everything and travel with her.

It's more a Karen-ish, White Savior logic, in general. And then RJ has the elephant trainer poke a giant hole in it, because of course she's only reducing her profile and hiding out until the actual Corenne arrives.

DarkHorse
Dec 13, 2006

Vroom Vroom, BEEP BEEP!

Nap Ghost

Atlas Hugged posted:

Thom just being a supporting character and his machinations often happening off-screen is probably Wheel of Time's biggest distinction from Game of Thrones. I can only imagine a hell-world where Thom spends multiple books meeting people in dark corners, writing letters to be sent by ravens, and plotting dinner parties before something finally happens.

Instead, we're shown in book 1 that he's quite capable of handling himself and then his backstory gets sprinkled in throughout after he does something insanely heroic. Then all Thom needs is the odd push or shove and poo poo goes down without thousands of pages being spent to agonize over it.

That was valuable real estate for spankings and skirt smoothings.

Spoilers for the end of the series (A Memory of Light)

The best example of how badass Thom is comes when he's just chilling outside the cave in Shoyol Ghul while Rand is doing his thing. Channelers keep trying to get in, and he keeps killing them and stacking their bodies like cordwood behind a rock.

And he's done it so much and so confidently he spends the time in between composing a song, because apparently murdering a bunch of channelers is no big thang for him

bell jar
Feb 25, 2009

Please bitches. If nothing else I am a gentleman

I love how blase Thom is about that whole sequence

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers

While that example is fantastic, I think TSR?
Mat walking in on Thom writing a pile of letters to play Rand's enemies against each other, wincing when Mat thumps his spy-chest and then taking the time to play stones with him has to be one of my favourites, because it shows his heart, not just his brain.

How are u
May 19, 2005



DarkHorse posted:

Spoilers for the end of the series (A Memory of Light)

The best example of how badass Thom is comes when he's just chilling outside the cave in Shoyol Ghul while Rand is doing his thing. Channelers keep trying to get in, and he keeps killing them and stacking their bodies like cordwood behind a rock.

And he's done it so much and so confidently he spends the time in between composing a song, because apparently murdering a bunch of channelers is no big thang for him


I'd completely forgotten about that little moment until I got to it in my re-read. It was both badass and farcical at the same time.

silvergoose
Mar 18, 2006

IT IS SAID THE TEARS OF THE BWEENIX CAN HEAL ALL WOUNDS



Comrade Blyatlov posted:

While that example is fantastic, I think TSR?
Mat walking in on Thom writing a pile of letters to play Rand's enemies against each other, wincing when Mat thumps his spy-chest and then taking the time to play stones with him has to be one of my favourites, because it shows his heart, not just his brain.

Nah it's gotta be "He is young, yes?" "And not half so bad as he thinks he is." with Aludra.

calandryll
Apr 25, 2003

Ask me where I do my best drinking!



Pillbug

DarkHorse posted:

Spoilers for the end of the series (A Memory of Light)

The best example of how badass Thom is comes when he's just chilling outside the cave in Shoyol Ghul while Rand is doing his thing. Channelers keep trying to get in, and he keeps killing them and stacking their bodies like cordwood behind a rock.

And he's done it so much and so confidently he spends the time in between composing a song, because apparently murdering a bunch of channelers is no big thang for him


Holy poo poo, I do not remember this. Guess I need to finish my re-read. I made to the end of book 6 before I decided I was done for a bit.

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.


calandryll posted:

Holy poo poo, I do not remember this. Guess I need to finish my re-read. I made to the end of book 6 before I decided I was done for a bit.

It's done so nonchalantly, and right in the middle of all the other chaos going on at that part of the book, that it's easy to gloss over.

bell jar
Feb 25, 2009

Please bitches. If nothing else I am a gentleman

I'm onto Winter's Heart in my re-read. I think I've seen people interpret that as Rand getting colder. But honestly I think it refers to Perrin. I don't have a printed copy so I can't get the exact quote, but around the time he finds out that Faile is kidnapped there is a passage that refers to his heart getting icy cold.

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers

It's cold outside dude

Old Kentucky Shark
May 25, 2012

If you think you're gonna get sympathy from the shark, well then, you won't.



Vavrek posted:

Audiobook status:


I was wondering how the narrator would handle it and Michael Kramer loving nailed it.

No lie; I hit this point yesterday, and it spooked my dog so much he jumped up and ran around barking.

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Brolander
Oct 20, 2008

i am but a vessel

my fave Kramer moment is diediediediedieDIEDIEDIEDIEDIEDIEDIEDIEDIEDIEDIEDIEDIEDIE

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