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ninjoatse.cx posted:From Jordan: Ok, so you can't shield someone out of a circle, and it's really hard to shield a circle. Good to know.
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Apr 12, 2021 17:49
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Skyl3lazer posted:Ok, I just finished book 6, and need some help deciphering what the gently caress actually happened? If he zaps the fog it undoes the past up to a certain point and that would mean it brings Sammael back to life as well as Liah. There's no guarantee she's not already corrupted so saving her isn't a sure thing and he can't risk letting Sammael win or escape. There's no clean victory, so he has to do what he can with balefire and hope for the best. IIRC RJ confirmed that Sammael is dead so it's not a loose end but Rand doesn't know that Also by that point Rand already has plans for Mashadar. It's one of those decisions where there are no clean victories.
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Apr 12, 2021 18:45
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Skyl3lazer posted:Ok, I just finished book 6, and need some help deciphering what the gently caress actually happened? I'm half asleep so apologies if I miss something but, in order (ish): First that's book 7, not 6. I was confused when you started describing it because I was all ready to talk about the ending of Lord of Chaos because the ending of Lord of Chaos owns. Second: Sammael isn't doing enough to avoid the fog. Mashadar moves fast, sometimes. The line is "Sammael peered into the darkness lying across the square, and Mashadar oozed out of the windows, thick billows of silver-gray fog sliding together, merging as they loomed above his head. Sammael walked a little to one side, and the wave began to descend, slowly picking up speed as it fell." Which to me reads like Mashadar is accelerating as it approaches Sammael. Rand wants to kill Sammael personally, though. Third: Rand hears Liah shrieking, taking his eyes away from Sammael. He sees Mashadar touch Liah and concludes that he has just witnessed her death. Two points on using balefire to save her: One, it's not certain that zapping the cloud of fog next to Liah would re-do the causality of her getting poked by the fog. Like, if each piece of the fog is separate then the part that touched her isn't the part that's hanging out a foot away from her, but if all the fog is a singular whole then you'd need to kill all of Mashadar, or maybe it's yet a third idea, leading to: I don't think characters strategically think about the use of balefire like that. I kind of think they should, especially after seeing Mat and Aviendha alive, but it's also a kind of abstract logic metagaming technique that doesn't necessarily occur to people. I could kind of see Mat coming up with the idea if somebody explained balefire to him, maybe. He might be the right kind of unorthodox thinker. But Rand's been thinking of it just as "this is what ultimately, 100%, no questions asked will kill someone." So to spare her the fate of being consumed by Mashadar, Rand zaps Liah out. Fourth: He then swings the beam down to the square where he was looking at Sammael before and sees it covered with the fog, so he stops to go "huh?" and draw conclusions: the fog was accelerating toward Sammael, then Rand takes his eyes off Sammael for very short interval of time, and when he looks back the fog is covering the entire area where Sammael was standing. The fog covers a greater area than where Sammael could have run to in that time and Rand felt no gateway. Everything, from Rand's POV, points to Sammael having just gotten ganked by Mashadar while Rand was looking to the side for a second. Fifth, clarifications: Nothing Rand did had an impact on Sammael dying in this scene. I think Sammael was probably just underestimating Mashadar, or it crept up on him in a blind spot. He may not have realized just how dangerous Shadar Logoth is. The reason Rand's narration says "instead" is because he had no real part in Sammael's actual (apparent) death: he had a brief moment when he could have killed Sammael and he was about to, but in that instant he was distracted by Liah and, with almost no contemplation of the act, mercy-kills her. Sixth, commentary: On the Forsaken going out like chumps so far: Yeah, kinda. My favorite might be Aginor, who just sort of ... walked up, yelled at Rand, and then burst into flames. For non-chumps, I do like Rahvin's death. You have an extended pursuit in the world of dreams, with the two fighting both using the power and dream-rules. Nynaeve bathes Rahvin in fire and his response is to turn and stare at her while he is on fire, and it's only the combination in timing of Rand coming up and dealing out balefire right then that saves them both. Like, if Nynaeve hadn't intervened, I don't know if Rahvin would have been caught unawares by Rand. If Rand hadn't killed Rahvin then, I think he might've fought off Nynaeve. Also, you know, Rand's repeated fights with Ishamael are pretty cool.
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Apr 12, 2021 18:48
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Liah might have also been the distraction Sammael needed to get ganked
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Apr 12, 2021 21:47
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VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:Liah might have also been the distraction Sammael needed to get ganked Oh, yeah. That makes sense. My analysis was pretty Rand-POV centric. Didn't take into effect how other people would react. (This comment written to avoid needing spoiler tags.)
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Apr 12, 2021 23:12
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Data Graham posted:Wwwwwwhy do it then? What's the advantage? Because A) it lets one particularly skilled channeller tap into the strength of a dozen lesser talents for specialized tasks like healing, and B) there are some things you just want raw brute force for. By analogy: if you want to dig a trench a mile long, you might want 50 men armed with shovels, but if you want to knock down a castle wall, you'd much prefer 1 man the size and strength of 49 regular men armed with a big gently caress-off hammer. Old Kentucky Shark fucked around with this message at 12:38 on Apr 13, 2021 |
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Apr 12, 2021 23:16
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Data Graham posted:Wwwwwwhy do it then? What's the advantage? When you're shooting at a tank do you want 1 shell that weighs 20 pounds or 2,000 handgun bullets? You need something to cut through all the bullshit and do the job.
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Apr 12, 2021 23:23
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Yeah, concentrated power in one area is often more effective than a larger quantity of power spread out. Like book six is the perfect example of this Rand could have individually overpowered any of the Aes Sedai who captured him and was able to run roughshod over multiple of them at a time. When linked though he was completely unable to breach them. Those sisters working individually even in tandem could never have captured Rand or held a shield on him but they could with a circle
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Apr 12, 2021 23:33
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Yeah, the books make it pretty clear that it's much easier to fend off several small shields than one big one. Another advantage of circles is that some weaves require a certain amount of power to function in the first place. Traveling is a prime example. Most of the Kin are too weak to travel by themselves, but they can make it work if they link. And traveling also demonstrates another advantage. Perhaps sometimes you want to move your army in small groups, and at other times you might want to move all of them at once through one huge gateway. Linking makes the latter possible.
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Apr 13, 2021 08:49
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Oh that actually reminds me of the best example for the advantages of mixed circles- With Perrin's army, after he finally cajoles his Wise Ones and Aes Sedai to work with the two Asha'man, one of them specifically calls out at how much easier it is to make very large gateways vs what any of the individuals alone or just the women could do. And it's a big deal because of just how many loving people Perrin has with him, that the Asha'man alone simply couldn't make and hold gateways large enough for them to move the army reasonably.
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Apr 13, 2021 13:13
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And, if they get to the last battle...
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Apr 13, 2021 13:16
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Torrannor posted:Yeah, the books make it pretty clear that it's much easier to fend off several small shields than one big one. Yeah, there's points where someone is trying to shield someone else holding the power and it just straight up bounces off. Enough power differential and I'm assuming you can ignore one person trying to shield you. Plus there was always the known fact that 13 people in a circle was capable of overpowering any one person no matter how weak the 13 were. Even 13 people as weak as Morgase should have been able to shield Rand, assuming they could get a circle up.
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Apr 13, 2021 18:00
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Doing a re-listen of the audiobooks, puttering around the house in the evening letting Lord of Chaos roll in the background.Michal Reading posted:Chapter 55. The final chapter. *record scratch* time to get a drink and sit down.
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Apr 14, 2021 06:01
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VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:I think if you somehow manage to knock out a single sister they would leave the circle. But the remaining circle is still exponentially stronger than the sum of the parts soooo Once a circle is formed, only the leader can end it. It's mentioned in the books a couple of times that there is a danger of burning someone out if they are forced to channel too much through the link. I think it's only additive as well, if you want to let someone go, you have to drop the whole thing and link up again. That's why they don't keep a circle on Rand. They don't need the strength of the full circle, and by keeping a half dozen women on him individually, they can take shifts over the days they have him captured. As far as the a'dam goes, I don't know that it's mentioned in the book what would happen if one was put on a woman in a circle. Given what's said about ter'angreal it breaking the circle and working, nothing happening, the victim being burned out, or the whole thing exploding all seem equally likely. Gambor fucked around with this message at 01:18 on Apr 15, 2021 |
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Apr 15, 2021 01:16
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It's actually explicitly mentioned that the circle acts as a buffer and doesn't let you draw on people too much! It sure can make them tired as gently caress though.
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Apr 15, 2021 01:34
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silvergoose posted:It's actually explicitly mentioned that the circle acts as a buffer and doesn't let you draw on people too much! Yeah I just read that in Crown of Swords when Elayne is teaching the Sea Folk linking, the people in the circle are like sa'angreal and buffered from drawing too much. The three sisters that were stilled by Rand were because they were the last ones holding the shield when he broke free
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Apr 15, 2021 01:40
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DarkHorse posted:Yeah I just read that in Crown of Swords when Elayne is teaching the Sea Folk linking, the people in the circle are like sa'angreal and buffered from drawing too much. Just to clarify, angreals act a multiplier to the channeler's strength. Someone in the circle can only add a percentage of what they can draw individually. People channeling through an angreal don't get any protection from burning out. If anything they're more prone to it. No word if leading a circle gives you protection from burning out. It never happens in any of the books (though Lan thinks it's possible), and it's never mentioned in any of the sources I've read.
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Apr 15, 2021 01:51
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DarkHorse posted:Yeah I just read that in Crown of Swords when Elayne is teaching the Sea Folk linking, the people in the circle are like sa'angreal and buffered from drawing too much. It is a seriously great sequence though. When Rand gets out I'm always like 
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Apr 15, 2021 04:10
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ninjoatse.cx posted:People channeling through an angreal don't get any protection from burning out. If anything they're more prone to it. Most are buffered, some aren't. Vora's Sa'angreal that the tower has is specifically called out as being flawed due to lacking the buffer that keeps you from drawing too much.
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Apr 15, 2021 04:54
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Callandor*
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Apr 15, 2021 05:03
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Yeah that one is just going double ham on the "flaws" too lol
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Apr 15, 2021 05:04
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I'm trying to remember... is it actually said that Vora's lacks a buffer? We only ever see it once prior to the Sanderson books, right? I guess we have to assume that it doesn't have one, given how it ends, but that seems... odd now that I'm thinking about it. *angreals having buffers is stated as a given. Callandor is special and specifically-constructed (whether by "accident"-of-the-Wheel or intention) and I had thought its condition was a one-off because of it.
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Apr 15, 2021 06:00
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bio347 posted:I'm trying to remember... is it actually said that Vora's lacks a buffer? We only ever see it once prior to the Sanderson books, right? I guess we have to assume that it doesn't have one, given how it ends, but that seems... odd now that I'm thinking about it. *angreals having buffers is stated as a given. Yeah, it was explicitly said in the last book. (I think it was somewhere else too, but that's where I remember it from) AMoL p887 posted:She closed her eyes and drew in the power. More than a woman should be able to, more than was right. Far beyond safety, far beyond wisdom. This sa’angreal had no buffer to prevent this.
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Apr 15, 2021 06:04
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I have a mildly puerile thought to share with the thread.The Dragon Reborn, ch. 25: Questions posted:A woman turned to face her at the foot of the ramp, and Egwene stopped in confusion. Whoever she was, this was certainly not Else. All in silver and white silk, she sparked feelings Egwene had never had before. She was taller, more beautiful by far, and the look in her black eyes made Egwene feel small, scrawny, and none too clean. She can probably channel more of the Power than I can, too. Light, she is probably smarter than all three of us put together on top of it. It isn’t fair for one woman to—Abruptly she realized the way her thoughts were going. Her cheeks reddened, and she gave herself a shake. She had never felt—less—than any other woman before, and she was not about to start now. I think the intended reading is chiefly that Egwene's titanic ego is such that she's never really thought of someone else being above her, not in hierarchy (like Siuan) or in social station (like Elayne), but in some sense of being a fundamentally better person. But I can't help reading the sections I bolded as "Lanfear is so hot that even Egwene feels it."
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Apr 19, 2021 22:31
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Vavrek posted:I have a mildly puerile thought to share with the thread. Oh, very much so. Like, it's pretty low-key textually, but a number of Aes Sedai were in relationships as novices with other novices.
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Apr 19, 2021 22:37
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I think it is implied (or even outright stated) that Lanfear is using some sort of "LOVE ME! WORSHIP ME!" weave at all times.
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Apr 19, 2021 22:50
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Gnoman posted:I think it is implied (or even outright stated) that Lanfear is using some sort of "LOVE ME! WORSHIP ME!" weave at all times. Yeah, same.
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Apr 19, 2021 23:18
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bare minimum she probably just has some sort of glamor going on that most of the others probably don't bother with but she finds personally useful for a lot of obvious reasons
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Apr 19, 2021 23:31
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Johnny Joestar posted:bare minimum she probably just has some sort of glamor going on that most of the others probably don't bother with but she finds personally useful for a lot of obvious reasons I stand by my theory that Rand had just never met a woman with shaved legs before.
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Apr 19, 2021 23:46
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Johnny Joestar posted:bare minimum she probably just has some sort of glamor going on that most of the others probably don't bother with but she finds personally useful for a lot of obvious reasons Yeah the whole period with Rand and Julin in the Portal Stones it's pretty clear they're being manipulated. Like Rand's head clears occasionally when they're separated temporarily and she's clearly aggravated it's not working. It's not Compulsion but definitely a "I am amazing and great, worship me" mind effect.
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Apr 19, 2021 23:55
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You can tell it’s a weave by the way it even works on Loial despite Lanfear’s tragically anemic human eyebrows.
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Apr 20, 2021 00:00
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DarkHorse posted:Yeah the whole period with Rand and Julin in the Portal Stones it's pretty clear they're being manipulated. Like Rand's head clears occasionally when they're separated temporarily and she's clearly aggravated it's not working. It's not Compulsion but definitely a "I am amazing and great, worship me" mind effect. Hurin. Thief taker, not thief-catcher. I suppose a mild or moderate Compulsion-like effect would explain even Loial babbling about how hot Lanfear was.
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Apr 20, 2021 00:09
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:You can tell it’s a weave by the way it even works on Loial despite Lanfear’s tragically anemic human eyebrows. This is an excellent post, I appreciate it.
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Apr 20, 2021 00:09
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Johnny Joestar posted:bare minimum she probably just has some sort of glamor going on that most of the others probably don't bother with but she finds personally useful for a lot of obvious reasons She 100% does. One of the times with Rand in book 3 or 4 she asks him if he'd like to see the real her, and drops the web. It's not even a dramatic difference though, she's just more mature/even more imperious looking iirc. I think she makes some comment about how aginor and balthamel were stuck too close to the passage of time and thus ended up the decaying husks when they were freed, while she was held almost in stasis, too.
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Apr 20, 2021 00:22
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Lanfear just wanted to bang and recreate reality. Didn’t seem so bad.
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Apr 20, 2021 01:13
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Invalid Validation posted:Lanfear just wanted to bang and recreate reality. Didn’t seem so bad. Also destroy the dark one AND the Creator and also have the most powerful man in the world enthralled by her
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Apr 20, 2021 01:20
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DarkHorse posted:Also destroy the dark one AND the Creator and also have the most powerful man in the world enthralled by her It's good to have goals.
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Apr 20, 2021 01:58
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rip to a true #girlboss
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Apr 20, 2021 02:06
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She just really, really wanted a lay. Unfortunately everyone saw her for the type that would rip a man's skin off and noped the gently caress out.
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Apr 20, 2021 02:14
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:She just really, really wanted a lay. Unfortunately everyone saw her for the type that would rip a man's skin off and noped the gently caress out. You rip just one man's skin off and everyone starts looking at you sidewise.
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Apr 20, 2021 03:48
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