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Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

silvergoose posted:

Oh they are so going to use the "nimbus of light surrounding women who are holding the source" thing.

Because then they'll be able to put some menacing aura-that-isn't-actually-visible around saidin wielders.

Your TV doesn't have a Red/Green/Blue/Octarine display?

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Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

Spek posted:

I have a very vague memory of reading an interview with Jordan once where he said something along the lines of intending to make the entire book be everyone's reaction to the climactic and world changing event at the end of Winters Heart but realized like 1/2 to 3/4ths of the way through that it wasn't working and rather than rewriting it just kinda pushed through and finished it. Which is I guess better than George RR Martin's strategy of realizing his 5 year gap wasn't working and just imploding.

It's always annoyed me that Rand, Cadsuane, Nyneave or loving anyone else there didn't choose to send out messengers to tell the world what just happened. Like sure most wouldn't believe it right away but you need to plant those seeds and the earlier the better. It most likely would have made CoT way better and it just would have made sense. Having the characters debating whether or not the news is true and what they can/should do about it if it is true would likely have actually been able to fill most of a book entertainingly. Having 300 different characters just go "big power? wuh happened" one after the other after the other on the other hand gets real old real quick.

I always understood the point to also be a global event that would sync up everyone's timelines, they'd gotten off kilter. Was it Winter's Heart where Tam shows up with Rand and fans assumed he had to be a fake because he was with Perrin at the same time?

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

Mad Hamish posted:

Um excuse me what kind of tyrant could poor Bela be, exactly?

Bela was a Darkfriend.

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

COOL CORN posted:

I just keep being surprised how many dimensions these characters are getting. It's great.

I was going to say "sorry I'll stop gushing about the book now" but I guess this is kinda the place to do it.

Yeah, when I first started the series (~20 years ago, wow) everything seemed so flat and derivative in the first book and I only stuck with it because my friend insisted it was good, and she was cute. And what do ya know, she was right.

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

Do all paperback copies of Winter's Heart fall apart because of the size of the thing, or have I just been lucky?

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

I caught it. Seemed fine to me.

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

calandryll posted:

Holy poo poo, I do not remember this. Guess I need to finish my re-read. I made to the end of book 6 before I decided I was done for a bit.

It's done so nonchalantly, and right in the middle of all the other chaos going on at that part of the book, that it's easy to gloss over.

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

Also, historically, a long bow *is* probably a superior weapon vs even a fairly sophisticated crossbow, it just takes a lot of additional training to use well. If you've already sunk cost in the training, no point in switching.

Yeah, the history nerds on Youtube have done a lot of tests and a longbow is better IF you have the training to use one and are in a suitable environment (hard to use indoors, on a ship or with overhanging branches). But if you need to you can just round up a bunch of random folks, give em crossbows, and have "good enough" levels of soldier by the time you've marched to the battlefield. The machine itself is more complicated/expensive, but the person doesn't have to be as a result.

I like Tod's Workshop for that sort of thing. When he does comparisons he's willing to look at the actual tools and say stuff like "well in the test this one was clearly better, but we have evidence of these being used instead. Let's discuss why they may have chosen to do so, because people back then were more primitive in technology but they weren't stupid."

Bruceski fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Jun 2, 2020

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

If I remember the guy's lecture afterward it wasn't that the quarterstaff was superior but that it was quite usable and they underestimated it. Don't assume someone has to have a sword to be a threat to you.

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

Roger Zelazny: fantastical and imaginative uses of the One Power on all sides. Half the good guys betray the rest for political intrigue reasons but half the bad guys turn out to have been good guys. Lots of casual sex particularly among half-siblings and aunts.

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

Vavrek posted:

New mental image gained. Thanks for that. (No, really. Faile makes a lot more sense if she's like 17 than the 22-23 I thought she was.)

"This is totally how Mommy and Daddy get along, why doesn't Perrin love meeeeee?"

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

If Mat had any self-awareness about his skills he'd be insufferable to read. Can you imagine if he was arguing battle strategy from a "you should listen because I'm awesome" perspective instead of "you should listen because it will work and yours won't"? It would be like early Galad, before you get the perspective chapters that show he really sincerely does believe all that honor stuff he's spouting.

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

Gwaihir posted:

Wait what? I missed that rofl.

quote:

A silvery thing in another cabinet, like a three-pointed star inside a circle, was made of no substance she knew; it was softer than metal, scratched and gouged, yet even older than any of the ancient bones. From ten paces she could sense pride and vanity.

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

Prairie Bus posted:

I still think Elayne would’ve been more interesting if she had a real opponent for the succession. Arymilla has one scene and it’s so dull. Jarid’s role is so minor that Sanderson literally had his troops desert him because he had failed to accomplish anything.

You'd have to shuffle around a lot of the succession war to accommodate it, but with the "Elayne as a gray" idea I could see Daelin using her backers to actively challenge Elayne. Not because she wanted the throne, but as leverage to get Elayne to listen and grow some last bit to become Queen-worthy. Instead of (or in addition to since those guys wind up so toothless, if you can balance it well) the politicking progressing into warfare, have a warfare setup that turns into politics.

It worked to muddy the situation for the story, but it was frustrating that Elayne's biggest threat in terms of someone her supporters actually liked was just "no I don't want it stop trying to make this a plot point you guys."

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

I think what I liked as far as the main characters is that the reader spends the whole time frustrated that they aren't communicating with each other due to teen drama, and when they finally start communicating they say pretty much the same "why were we too stubborn to do this earlier" thing.

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

Cavelcade posted:

Anyone who reads that and doesn't laugh is dead inside.

A lot of times people try to do foreign humor in a fantasy story they have the same KIND of humor but with nonsense cultural elements, This can be funny in the delivery (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt4WredSDog) but the joke itself is not a joke in the proper sense.

In contrast Aiel humor did a great job of being different and missable but consistent. It was dry and subtle and blended well with the culture's acceptance of fatalism.

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

seaborgium posted:

It was when he covered the bets for Galad and Gawyn I knew poo poo was about to go down. The guy who trains Warders knows what's about to happen and just wants some entertainment.

Not "just", when you've got headstrong youths with a bit of skill the hardest thing to teach is humility. Not sure how much they learned, but no teacher's gonna let a chance like that go by.

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

Comrade Blyatlov posted:

It's also described that the Aiel immediately break into quarters and flank their enemies ruthlessly

I can see this working particularly well against the kind of idiotic CHARGE THEM DOWN lords you see in the series

It seemed to me that traditional Wetlander tactics excelled against people who also used traditional Wetlander tactics but completely fell apart when faced with innovation. The Aiel did it naturally because their home environment favored skirmishing formations that just disappeared anywhere the enemy brought their strength to bear. The Seanchan had similar large soldier block tactics but also had portable Damane siege weapons and Raken for mobility. And then there were the Great Generals, whose main skill was the ability to say "this isn't working, let's try something else."

Worked great against the Trollocs though, the only issue there was stamina against horde tactics.

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

Libluini posted:

Never understood where the "manic pixie" is supposed to come from. Min is basically your normal, down-to-earth girl. Nothing manic or pixie-like. Posts like this confuse me to no end. :confused:

A man going through his humdrum life of grand politics, prophecies, magic, war and fantasy. Suddenly a woman comes into his orbit who shows him the mundane world existing alongside the fantastic one he's been living in, he just needs to see it.

Coming this Fall...

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

My only worry is that without Gawyn someone else will be the Worst Person in the Story, and if we keep trimming those it'll eventually hit someone actually likeable.

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

I hope they didn't mix it up with warder color-shifting cloaks

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

I need to find my "I killed Asmodean" bumper sticker.

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

Gnoman posted:

I like the notion of "this universe literally revolves around this person - it isn't just a storytelling thing". Especially because all three Ta'veren spend a lot of time wishing the universe would leave them the hell alone.

It's their reaction to the status that has me enjoy it instead of getting annoyed. The boys wind up coming into their roles on their own terms, and the ta'varen stuff is more a way to highlight "these are people the reader should pay attention to" and a way to drive the story and establish their character. "The plot just works in this guy's favor" would be terrible if the character was on board with that from the start.

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

Atlas Hugged posted:

For some reason this discussion reminds me of that photo that came out a few years ago of "important" people and everyone is very carefully placed to balance the photo while no one is over shadowed except Elon Musk who clearly said gently caress it and chose his own place to stand, ruining the photo.



He's... he's on the counter. WHY IS HE STANDING ON THE COUNTER?

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

Johnny Joestar posted:

consider the basic fact that if you're designing an eye-catching logo to put everything that succinctly captures the most core aspects of the media you're advertising that maybe a circle (that is a snake eating itself in an eternal loop and tends to be recognized even outside of wheel of time) with the initials of the series inside of it will probably be much easier to parse at a distance or brief glance than an infinity sign

VTV is the initials of the series?

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

Invalid Validation posted:

We might get some decent WoT merch though.

I say this every time WoT merch comes up, but I really wish I knew where my "I Killed Asmodean" bumper sticker wound up.

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

seaborgium posted:

And the person hand-picked by the original author, with access to all of his notes and extensive conversations about how it should end/motivations of characters/things that had to be tied up etc. is still around as well. If it does well enough, maybe we'll get the Mat/Tuon going back to Seanchan thing Jordan said he would have liked to do.

Finishing up the story is one thing, writing new ones is another. Other authors have had folks do that to varying levels of success (I remember Gregory Benford, Greg Bear and David Brin did it for Asimov's Foundation, if I haven't gotten my series mixed up) but I don't think it's something Sanderson wants to do.

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

William Bear posted:

In 2010, German power metal band Blind Guardian released this song, from the point of view of Rand al'Thor. It's pretty cool.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCLsqg05boo

I unironically love the overlap between metal bands and massive nerds.

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Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

From a narrative perspective, what magic can be depends what you want it to do. If you want it to be mysterious and terrifying you don't need to know exactly how someone pulls off a growing-huge illusion or two channelers have a battle whose only point for the focus character is "I don't want to be anywhere near here." The mechanics need more description when the focus character is using it to solve problems, or it's a tactical center of a world-spanning war. Or maybe they don't, if you do it right and know that's what you're doing.

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