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GoGoGadgetChris
Mar 18, 2010


Bad Dog

We've seen what no-activision-Bungie is capable of and it's not good, not pretty. I'm sure there will be enjoyable bits of Beyond Light but I think we're all expecting something pretty mediocre.

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Sample_text
Apr 28, 2018


So my 2 exotic engrams at level 65 were a big oof. The Black Talon and the Contraverse Hold.
The Hold is apparently really good in pvp, so if I ever play pvp again i'll do that , but the talon is really meh now that I have an equivalent legendary sword.
Really cool poo poo like the Graviton Lance, or the Sweet Business still elude me.

Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007




dragonshardz posted:

Correction: Names on Steam aren't unique. SteamIDs are.

Thats what I meant to type

Spanish Manlove
Aug 31, 2008

HAILGAYSATAN

RBX posted:

I wonder do they expect us to literally scrap all our sunset stuff? No way i'm doing that. I'm still holding out that they'll get a backlash large enough to change their minds and let people enjoy whatever they want to use. Or just sunset the pinnacles and be done with it since they keep dancing around it. That's better than making a handful of guns useable. And retire the dumb armaments mods since they seem to hate those.

Yup.

But I'm not going to scrap my favorite guns that I've masterworked and used all the time.

DaveKap
Feb 5, 2006

Pickle: Inspected.



Arkage posted:

Yea that's the other thing. It's safe to assume Bungie has split itself into a different project
No need to assume, it's been confirmed for years.

Rubellavator
Aug 16, 2007



e: nevermind

RocketRaygun
Nov 7, 2015



GoGoGadgetChris posted:

We've seen what no-activision-Bungie is capable of and it's not good, not pretty. I'm sure there will be enjoyable bits of Beyond Light but I think we're all expecting something pretty mediocre.

Well, yes-activision-Bungie would have ended Destiny 2 and released Destiny 3 as a stand alone title. The whole sunsetting conversation would be "Bungie made us leave our entire collection behind AGAIN!?!".

Activision doesn't like expansions. They were the top selling game on consoles for Sept 2018 and Activision still said they missed revenue targets.

So really, you are hosed either way.

Firebert
Aug 16, 2004


At least last time they sunsetted weapons it was because the new stuff was better/desirable. This fall, people are gonna have to leave behind their good guns for a season 12 re-issue of Ringing Nail with threat detector and air assault as the top perks.

DaveKap
Feb 5, 2006

Pickle: Inspected.



RocketRaygun posted:

Well, yes-activision-Bungie would have ended Destiny 2 and released Destiny 3 as a stand alone title. The whole sunsetting conversation would be "Bungie made us leave our entire collection behind AGAIN!?!".
I'm not 100% on board with this kind of theorizing. Destiny 1 was built on a pile of hacks and exclusivity to consoles. Destiny 2 was made at a time when the possibility of cross-play between competitors was slowly opening up and the door to the universe was opening up for PC players. If ever there was a time to *not* let players transfer their old gear, it would've been between 1 and 2 so that PC players didn't feel needlessly behind the pack by years. It's also likely that the opening to Destiny 2 (losing the tower -> the vault -> your gear and all your power) was built specifically to excuse the loss of gear as well.

Now, however, with the barriers between platforms breaking down and Destiny 2's slightly-less-hacked together engine, I think Destiny 3 actually could have been released with the ability to pull your gear through. Plus, pulling yet-another plot-based excuse as to why your character lost all their poo poo would've been seen as a funny joke the way it became one at the start of every Metroid game. Could current-day Bungie make it? Most signs are pointing to no but that doesn't mean it's a guarantee that 3 would've led to a full wipe either.

Pirate Jet
May 2, 2010



RocketRaygun posted:

Well, yes-activision-Bungie would have ended Destiny 2 and released Destiny 3 as a stand alone title. The whole sunsetting conversation would be "Bungie made us leave our entire collection behind AGAIN!?!".

No I’m pretty sure everyone in this thread currently complaining about the state of the game would have preferred a Destiny 3 to this. I can go back and play Destiny 1 whenever I want and all I’m really missing out on is Sparrow Racing League.

GoGoGadgetChris
Mar 18, 2010


Bad Dog

I'd vastly prefer to be playing Destiny 3 with a fresh empty vault this September, but I'm probably alone in that regard.

Fly Molo
May 7, 2007






I think there's big distinct difference between the Taken King approach to sunsetting, or a new game, vs. what Bungie's implementing. A massive expansion or new game would be a 1-time gear reset, counterbalanced by a shitload of new content.

What Bungie's proposing instead is that the slow trickle of new content will continue, but your gear will continually be resetting (not just a one-time thing) and you'll need to keep farming Gnawing Hungers every few months just to keep using the same gun, in the same strikes and public events, with the same rewards a year from now. And that's bullshit.

RocketRaygun posted:

Activision doesn't like expansions. They were the top selling game on consoles for Sept 2018 and Activision still said they missed revenue targets.

Ehh, I don't really blame them in particular for that, that's less of a problem with Activision and more of a general problem with any publicly-traded company under capitalism. Profits must increase exponentially, forever, or else the company's a failure.
"We sold a billion iPhones this year!"
"Good! You need to sell 1.03 billion next year."
"But... everyone who needs iPhones has one now? We could maybe sell 0.9 billion, if we do a lot of shady stuff and fudge some numbers?"
"gently caress you I'm suing you!! If you're not growing, you're dying!!"

number gotta go up

Firebert
Aug 16, 2004


GoGoGadgetChris posted:

I'd vastly prefer to be playing Destiny 3 with a fresh empty vault this September, but I'm probably alone in that regard.

You're not, I want the fake Destiny 3 leak from a year or two ago with Dark Guardians vs. Light Guardian PvP in all-new patrol zones

Sylphosaurus
Sep 6, 2007


GoGoGadgetChris posted:

I'd vastly prefer to be playing Destiny 3 with a fresh empty vault this September, but I'm probably alone in that regard.
No, I´m the same in that regard since I´d rather see a fresh slate rather than the kludged mess that is Destiny 2.

Gay Rat Wedding
Sep 14, 2011


Taco Defender

Why would a whole new game carry everything over from the previous one?that seems like it would massively restrict what you could do with a new game and wouldn’t be worth the trouble compared to just making more expansions for the same game as they are now.

wiegieman
Apr 22, 2010

Royalty is a continuous cutting motion




Ultra Carp

It all comes back to the game not respecting our time. I like my time, I have a finite amount of it and a lot of poo poo posting to do.

RocketRaygun
Nov 7, 2015



DaveKap posted:

I'm not 100% on board with this kind of theorizing. Destiny 1 was built on a pile of hacks and exclusivity to consoles. Destiny 2 was made at a time when the possibility of cross-play between competitors was slowly opening up and the door to the universe was opening up for PC players. If ever there was a time to *not* let players transfer their old gear, it would've been between 1 and 2 so that PC players didn't feel needlessly behind the pack by years. It's also likely that the opening to Destiny 2 (losing the tower -> the vault -> your gear and all your power) was built specifically to excuse the loss of gear as well.

Now, however, with the barriers between platforms breaking down and Destiny 2's slightly-less-hacked together engine, I think Destiny 3 actually could have been released with the ability to pull your gear through. Plus, pulling yet-another plot-based excuse as to why your character lost all their poo poo would've been seen as a funny joke the way it became one at the start of every Metroid game. Could current-day Bungie make it? Most signs are pointing to no but that doesn't mean it's a guarantee that 3 would've led to a full wipe either.

Beyond Light is Destiny 3. The DCV is removing the "Destiny 2" content and transforming the game into Destiny 3. The act of Sunsetting was to clear out the old content from D2 Y1-3 so they could produce a new default set of items in "D3" to grind.

According to the leaks, Europa was going to be the main destination for the sequel. There was going to be a returning destination in Venus (which was probably replaced by Nessus in the current plan), a small new destination called "Chicago Exclusion Zone" (which EDZ and Cosmodrome are likely taking it's place), and a "Darkness Ship" (Which may have been Shadowkeep, with it's darkness ship inside the moon, since the D3 leak i'm referencing predates Forsaken).

The entire purpose of what we are seeing now is Bungie transforming Destiny 2 into Destiny 3 with Beyond Light. They are pulling your stuff forward by going forward with this plan. They are just sunsetting it so you have something to do. They are clearly trying to get the best of both worlds with a fresh content release and bring your stuff forward, but it's falling a little flat.

Pirate Jet
May 2, 2010



So why is it good that they’re turning Destiny 2 into Destiny 3 and erasing Destiny 2 in the process, as opposed to the old method where the previous game stuck around?

RocketRaygun
Nov 7, 2015



Pirate Jet posted:

So why is it good that they’re turning Destiny 2 into Destiny 3 and erasing Destiny 2 in the process, as opposed to the old method where the previous game stuck around?

because last time people freaked the gently caress about about all their stuff being left behind and Bungie not respecting their time.

Wheeee
Mar 11, 2001


RocketRaygun posted:

because last time people freaked the gently caress about about all their stuff being left behind and Bungie not respecting their time.

thanks idiots for costing everyone else an actually modern game

GoGoGadgetChris
Mar 18, 2010


Bad Dog

I know plenty of people who liked D1 better but I don't know a single soul who wishes they'd brought their Vault into D2.

Zedsdeadbaby
Jun 14, 2008

You have been called out, in the ways of old.


lol bungie didn't choose to continue with d2 just out of fear of pissing everybody off with sunsetting poo poo, they chose not to do d3 because they literally amputated themselves of a major publisher and two entire other video game studios.

d3 proper is going to happen eventually but the destiny development team is several hundred people smaller than it was before the activision split, so it's likely what comes after lightfall, as a next-gen only game. They need the time.

RocketRaygun
Nov 7, 2015



GoGoGadgetChris posted:

I know plenty of people who liked D1 better but I don't know a single soul who wishes they'd brought their Vault into D2.

you should get your eyes checked out or memory or something. this was the #1 complaint for most of d2 y1, and was even a complaint when forsaken came out because people had to re-grind y2 armor.

DaveKap
Feb 5, 2006

Pickle: Inspected.



RocketRaygun posted:

Beyond Light is Destiny 3.
Sure but the stuff you're describing is completely ignoring what else a numbered sequel brings to the table. Engine updates, UI updates, abandonment of previous locations and activities requiring fresh new ones to enjoy, removal of untenable maps (that one PS4 exclusive one that requires a loading pause,) a fresh start with currency systems and mods, a fresh start with Eververse, leveling progression, how lore is told, how matchmaking works, how the APIs work for things like DIM. The list goes on and on but the most important are those engine updates that could allow cross-play and streaming assets so the hard drive space is lessened, the assets are better compressed, and the load times aren't complete garbage.

Edit: To re-iterate, you can do all of these things and still bring forward your old loot. Nobody's going to mind re-grinding for glimmer and upgrade cores, they just don't want their awesome exotics and legendaries to disappear.

Zedsdeadbaby posted:

lol bungie didn't choose to continue with d2 just out of fear of pissing everybody off with sunsetting poo poo, they chose not to do d3 because they literally amputated themselves of a major publisher and two entire other video game studios.

d3 proper is going to happen eventually but the destiny development team is several hundred people smaller than it was before the activision split, so it's likely what comes after lightfall, as a next-gen only game. They need the time.
And yeah, this is the more likely thing occurring right now.

DaveKap fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Jun 30, 2020

RocketRaygun
Nov 7, 2015



DaveKap posted:

Sure but the stuff you're describing is completely ignoring what else a numbered sequel brings to the table. Engine updates, UI updates, abandonment of previous locations and activities requiring fresh new ones to enjoy, removal of untenable maps (that one PS4 exclusive one that requires a loading pause,) a fresh start with currency systems and mods, a fresh start with Eververse, leveling progression, how lore is told, how matchmaking works, how the APIs work for things like DIM. The list goes on and on but the most important are those engine updates that could allow cross-play and streaming assets so the hard drive space is lessened, the assets are better compressed, and the load times aren't complete garbage.

And yeah, this is the more likely thing occurring right now.

you don't have to do any of those things for a sequel. nor do you have to release a sequel to achieve any of those things. The engine that World of Warcraft is running on today is not in any way the same engine that it ran on in 2004. This is why WoW Classic took 3+ years to develop, even though they had all the data and everything from back then. They had to port stuff to the new engine. Bungie can just like... keep working on their engine and release the changes in a patch or expansion.

Destiny 2 is constantly getting engine updates. They ripped out and replaced the network stack in Season of the Worthy to support steam network sockets on PC. Beyond Light is being updated to support next generation consoles and crossplay. They built in a system to do synchronized live events that everyone in the game can see. They are making tech investments into their engine without putting a new version number on it because there is nothing stopping them from doing that.

Also, do you really think they are going to change level progression, lore telling, matchmaking, and the like? The massive technological improvement from D1 to D2 was to take the lore pieces and put them in the game rather than a website. Matchmaking and level progression is exactly the same in D2 as it was in post-TTK D1. Heck, they even significantly changed it in Shadowkeep by removing player levels... didn't need a sequel for that.

Slapping a 3 on the box doesn't actually mean anything at all. They can do everything you describe to D2, but they are choosing not to.

RocketRaygun fucked around with this message at 22:45 on Jun 30, 2020

GoGoGadgetChris
Mar 18, 2010


Bad Dog

RocketRaygun posted:

you should get your eyes checked out or memory or something. this was the #1 complaint for most of d2 y1

Bologna lol

Rubellavator
Aug 16, 2007



I don't trust Bungie to make a game without a terrible y1 experience.

Wheeee
Mar 11, 2001


Zedsdeadbaby posted:

lol bungie didn't choose to continue with d2 just out of fear of pissing everybody off with sunsetting poo poo, they chose not to do d3 because they literally amputated themselves of a major publisher and two entire other video game studios.

d3 proper is going to happen eventually but the destiny development team is several hundred people smaller than it was before the activision split, so it's likely what comes after lightfall, as a next-gen only game. They need the time.

tbh it's probably better this way as if/when Destiny 3 comes out it won't have to be crippled to run on a PS4

Rubellavator posted:

I don't trust Bungie to make a game without a terrible y1 experience.

i trust Bungie to make a game that's extremely pretty and fun to run around and shoot stuff in until i begin running into their horrendous and abusive systems designs and quit

Arkage
Aug 10, 2008

Things fall apart;
the centre cannot hold


RocketRaygun posted:

Beyond Light is Destiny 3.

A single new zone is not Titled Number Sequel worthy. Even if there's two new zones. The days of substantial sequels are past us, and to pretend Beyond Light is that, is to do a disservice to the new content D1 and D2 launched with along with the correspondingly significant price tag differences.

sure okay
Apr 7, 2006



College Slice

Just got back into this after my uhhhh 6th rotation of, "no more Destiny" and then "maybe some head clicking is what I need right now."

Every time I come back I get intimidated by what to do first. I like that it forces me into new content at first. I play a new mission, get some new lore, and I'm hooked. But then the core loop takes over and having to go to the tower to read up on and accept 50 new bounties is still intimidating even after playing for so long. I just can't shake the FOMO. Like, "yeah this bounty looks good, but is it REALLY what I should be doing right now?"

It really comes down to the concept of, "I don't know what I don't know." I see what's in front of me, and it's pretty good I guess. But what am I not seeing? Is there some secret dungeon? Some golden path farming technique I should be doing? I feel compelled to do youtube research, which kills my enthusiasm.

What I wish for the most is the high level design philosophy of "do whatever you like, and you'll get rewarded for it, at more or less the same rate as doing anything else."

I understand that clashes with a lot of other philosphies, but I do think there's room for many special case bounties players can pick up to get specific things like Exotics or catalysts.

Example: I think Banshee's bounties are dumb. I think Gambit and Vangaurd bounties are dumb. I think Pursuits for Pinnacles are NOT dumb. Pinnacles are worthy of hanging out in my inventory. They are reminders of goals I need to achieve by doing specific things.

But other than pinnacle/exotic quests, I strongly believe LL, upgrade modules, all that crap should just be given for playing the game. Number should just go up! (to the cap)

Discospawn
Mar 3, 2007



sure okay posted:

Pinnacles are worthy of hanging out in my inventory. They are reminders of goals I need to achieve by doing specific things.
Pinnacle/Ritual weapons haven't existed for the past 2 seasons, and the previous ones will be sunset next season. Bungie reacted with a sense of confusion when players complained about the lack of these weapons/quests.

sure okay posted:

I strongly believe LL, upgrade modules, all that crap should just be given for playing the game
Next season/expansion will have a 200 Light Level cap increase and introduce armor sunsetting, meaning you will absolutely need to grind significantly to increase your Light Level and acquire various crafting materials if you want to participate in the new content.

I don't think the game is headed in the direction you would have hoped for.

Tei
Feb 19, 2011



Zedsdeadbaby posted:

Nobody was mad when their fatebringers were gone for tk*, because there was much to replace it with.

Actually, people where crying about Fatebringer for years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E27Thk1KKso#t=7s

Deeturbomber
Feb 12, 2011

Sometimes, a man just needs to get his Rock off.


I wouldn't mind sunsetting if any of the rest of the goddamn game's grind made any loving sense.

They have an incredibly robust fanbase who all want vastly different things out of the game, and so far they seem to only be able to answer such a demand by making absolutely none of them happy.

It's 'balanced'.

Mill Village
Jul 27, 2007



Fly Molo posted:

I think there's big distinct difference between the Taken King approach to sunsetting, or a new game, vs. what Bungie's implementing. A massive expansion or new game would be a 1-time gear reset, counterbalanced by a shitload of new content.

What Bungie's proposing instead is that the slow trickle of new content will continue, but your gear will continually be resetting (not just a one-time thing) and you'll need to keep farming Gnawing Hungers every few months just to keep using the same gun, in the same strikes and public events, with the same rewards a year from now. And that's bullshit.

We weren’t even supposed to have Rise of Iron. If Activision’s plan was followed perfectly, we would be talking about Destiny 4 coming out this September.

Your farming argument is completely disingenuous because Bungie specifically said they curated the loot pool to specific weapons for the season so you don’t have to farm certain game modes to obtain them. Plus there’s that whole Umbral Engram system that virtually eliminates any need for farming.

https://www.bungie.net/en/Explore/Detail/News/49126

Bungie posted:

Today we’re going to talk about some changes that are coming in Season 11 to the way the world loot pool works. Because the world pool serves as a baseline of legendary gear that can be earned across different activities, we want to update and refresh it seasonally with meta relevant weapons, some of which were previously exclusive to specific activities like Gambit or Crucible.

This shared pool can also be unwieldy -- if you're looking for a specific roll of a specific weapon, a pool too large can make it statistically challenging to find, much less with the roll you want. Starting in Season 11, it will be curated both for relevance and overall size, to strike a balance between number of rewards and the chance to get a sought-after drop. Every season gear from previous seasons will be added, and any gear that would no longer have a Max Power Level greater than or equal to the current Season cap will be cycled out to ensure that drops are Power relevant in the current Season.

Fly Molo
May 7, 2007






Mill Village posted:

We weren’t even supposed to have Rise of Iron. If Activision’s plan was followed perfectly, we would be talking about Destiny 4 coming out this September.

Your farming argument is completely disingenuous because Bungie specifically said they curated the loot pool to specific weapons for the season so you don’t have to farm certain game modes to obtain them. Plus there’s that whole Umbral Engram system that virtually eliminates any need for farming.

https://www.bungie.net/en/Explore/Detail/News/49126

lol if bungie didn’t want us to keep farming indefinitely, why the gently caress would they go to the trouble of introducing sunsetting? Why not just nerf the pinnacles?

My core point stands: we’re still farming for a new gnawing hunger, spending huge amounts of time looking for a good roll again, with no changes or updates. Then we’ll get to do the same thing in a couple of seasons. Then again.

XBenedict
May 23, 2006

YOUR LIPS SAY 0, BUT YOUR EYES SAY 1.



Spanish Manlove posted:

Yup.

But I'm not going to scrap my favorite guns that I've masterworked and used all the time.

That'll show em.

Fly Molo
May 7, 2007






Spanish Manlove posted:

Yup.

But I'm not going to scrap my favorite guns that I've masterworked and used all the time.

I’m not going to unless I decide to buy the next expansion

And I’m gonna wait until at least a month in to decide. I ain’t paying poo poo unless everyone agrees it’s forsaken-quality

DaveKap
Feb 5, 2006

Pickle: Inspected.



RocketRaygun posted:

you don't have to do any of those things for a sequel.
Look at the backlash Blizzard got over the "Overwatch 2" announcement when they described it as just being a free version of Overwatch 1 with a new play mode. You don't have to do anything for a sequel but get ready for some amazingly negative press for not putting in the work. I'm willing to bet solid dollars that the reason Overwatch 2 isn't out right now is because Blizzard's trying to do more than just give Overwatch 1 a coat of paint.

Otherwise, I do understand that you believe Destiny 2's Ship of Theseus process is good enough to consider it Destiny 3. I don't believe that and I'm using the changes made from 1 to 2 as my reasoning. Part of this might come back to the fact that I enjoyed Destiny 2 vanilla more than I enjoyed Destiny 1 vanilla. Another part of this, however, is seeing all the various bugs that have been injected into the engine over time. A few seasons back it was the matchmaking for the tower taking literal minutes. This season it's the warping enemies and every youtube video getting posted in here about mods, Telesto, checkpoints, and entire game modes being taken offline. This Ship of Theseus is falling apart and Bungie is running out of Duct Tape.

Pirate Jet
May 2, 2010



RocketRaygun posted:

because last time people freaked the gently caress about about all their stuff being left behind and Bungie not respecting their time.

Which is different from this approach how?

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RBX
Jan 2, 2011



I have never see a games fanbase so scared of a sequel. It's weird. Any other group would clamour for it. I just spawned into an iron banner match with nobody there but me. Then it loads everything in and I'm stick in a room with the door suddenly closed. I've been kicked out of 5 games for random errors. Like why is any of this being tolerated? The foundation of this game stinks and the last thing then need to do is duct tape more poo poo onto it.

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