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 What is it? Through the Ages is a civilization board game by legendary designer Vlaada Chvátil. First coming out as Through the Ages: A Story of Civilization in 2006, it was re-released with significant balance improvements as Through The Ages: A New Story of Civilization in 2015. An expansion, New Leaders And Wonders, was released in 2019. There's also an app adaptation, widely regarded as one of the best board game apps of all time. It's available on Steam, the app store, and Google Play. Online multiplayer is cross-platform. You DO have to buy the app for each storefront you want to play; however, if you set up a CGE account, you only need to buy the expansion once to have it everywhere. Why should I play it? Through the Ages is a highly strategic game that gives you a lot of options and flexibility. You have to balance managing your military, technological prowess, food and resource production, governmental efficiency, and culture to win the game. You know from the start what cards will come on the main card offer, but not their order - you have to choose things as they come and try to adapt, while still being able to control the randomness. It has a system of "civil and military actions", where your turns aren't segmented up in to phases, but instead let you take actions in any order. Adding to the complexity, cards start on the card row costing 3 civil actions, decreasing to 2 and then 1 as the cards in front of them are taking. What this means is that you have a giant variety of potential actions on a given turn, giving you lots of opportunity to demonstrate your prowess or make mistakes. Your fate is in your hands. Should I play the physical board game? Probably not. It's fiddly and it takes a long time in person. More importantly, it's hard to keep track of things if you block out a potential turn then evaluate what a different turn looks like - a process that's extremely common in Through the Ages, and one the app makes effortless. It even has pass and play, so it's possible to play with people in person. If the tactile sensation is important to you, board game Through The Ages is still really good, but you'll be forcing yourself to do a lot of cube upkeep that the app can just ~get rid of~. Should I get the expansion? Yes. Maybe try a couple games without to make sure you like it, but the expansion adds an entirely new dimension of depth to the game with the "random mix" mode and is easily worth the five bucks. How do I play? The tutorial in the app is extremely well done; start there. I plan to record a new player tutorial video soon (I did one a couple of years back, but that was pre-expansion and I was also a lot worse.) Are the bots good? Yes! Surprisingly for a board game app, the hard bots hold their own pretty well. They don't jockey for relative strength and use the event deck quite as well as human players, and of course they can't find some of the truly esoteric plays a human can imagine, but someone who beats the hard bots consistently is definitely ready to play online. So if you have performance anxiety, never fear - you can get strong in private. What leaders and wonders are good? Part of my goal for this thread is to work on a goon tier list, so watch this space!
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Oct 2, 2019 06:25
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| # ? Apr 27, 2024 03:23 |
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GOON LEAGUE PRELIMINARY (SA Name / CGE Name) hito/ flaminghito StashAugstine / StashAugstine Super Jay Mann / J-Man Megasabin / DanWins rchandra / Arcee Phelddagrif / TemujinNC The General / The_General nimby / nimby wizzardstaff / wizzardstaff hito fucked around with this message at 02:23 on Oct 23, 2019 |
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Oct 2, 2019 06:26
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I can get beaten by goons. Should be noted the app does async play so if you want in dont fuss about finding time E: same name StashAugustine fucked around with this message at 06:54 on Oct 2, 2019 |
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Oct 2, 2019 06:30
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Also true! I guess a really relevant discussion point is whether people would prefer a live league (players have X time to commit to a timeslot where they'll sit down and play an entire blitz game), or an asyc league (players have X time to complete their async game.) I guess it's my personal bias that I prefer live games, because it's easier to keep things straight in your head when you hit it all at once instead of in drips and drabs. But if async is the more popular option, I'll suck it up.
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Oct 2, 2019 06:35
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CGE name is J-Man. I can do either live or async, doesn't really matter to me, I just need to make sure I find the time for games.
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Oct 2, 2019 08:07
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I think my question about the tournament is: is it mp or 2p. mp I don't think I can handle; takes longer and requires harder scheduling (or for async takes WAY longer). 2p...maybe?
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Oct 2, 2019 12:43
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CGE name is DanWins. I would be interested in aysynchronus multiplayer tournament with 3-4 people matches. Can't really dedicate the time for a live match and not interested in 2 player.
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Oct 2, 2019 13:55
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silvergoose posted:I think my question about the tournament is: is it mp or 2p. mp I don't think I can handle; takes longer and requires harder scheduling (or for async takes WAY longer). 2p...maybe? I think my personal inclination is 3p. Higher player numbers ARE longer; but 2p is just a fundamentally different game because anything you do to deny your opponent directly benefits you. I guess that we could just do async tournament, and it's always possible to get an informal agreement of "You two want to get together at datetime X and do a bunch of rounds?" So async is probably strictly better because you can still do live if it works for everyone and not if it doesn't.
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Oct 2, 2019 15:58
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Arcee on CGE. I'd try one 3p async league game to see how it goes.silvergoose posted:I think my question about the tournament is: is it mp or 2p. mp I don't think I can handle; takes longer and requires harder scheduling (or for async takes WAY longer). 2p...maybe? Up for a 2p async game (the one with 12h turns seems good, should have plenty of reserve time)?
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Oct 2, 2019 17:18
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I just finally beat the Age of Wonders challenge (mixed exp) after about 40 attempts. It's so godamn hard. I then crushed the World of Wonders challenge in 4 (really should have been 2, I lost my second attempt by 1 point on a completely random decision I made on the last turn). Also going on at least 5 years of actual board game ownership with 0 plays... Elysium fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Oct 2, 2019 |
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Oct 2, 2019 17:42
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I'd be down to give this a go. Haven't done online play so I'll need to get that set up, and I haven't bought the expansion yet. Will update once those are done.
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Oct 2, 2019 19:58
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I'd be down for this. My CGE is The_General
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Oct 2, 2019 20:33
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rchandra posted:Arcee on CGE. I'd try one 3p async league game to see how it goes. That's a good idea - before starting a league, it'd probably be good to just split folks into groups and run one game to kind of establish how it would feel and see who'd be in to it. Does Medium Async (12 hrs to respond/take turns, 3 days reserve/age) sound good to everyone, at least for a first trial game? Elysium posted:I just finally beat the Age of Wonders challenge (mixed exp) after about 40 attempts. It's so godamn hard. I then crushed the World of Wonders challenge in 4 (really should have been 2, I lost my second attempt by 1 point on a completely random decision I made on the last turn). Grats! Yeah, that one looks like a nightmare.
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Oct 3, 2019 03:50
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hito posted:Does Medium Async (12 hrs to respond/take turns, 3 days reserve/age) sound good to everyone, at least for a first trial game? That time is working nicely for me in a 2p game. Worst case you check in twice per day (plenty of reserve time so no need to be super punctual and can miss some checks). The faster ones seem hard to keep up with given sleep/school/work, especially in a 3p+, until you get to blitz for live play. But often both of us check in more often than that and it goes fast. Now if only I hadn't fallen for their strength trap ... (played an aggression that I could easily block, so I assumed the deck wasn't strength events and had to explode an employed worker).
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Oct 3, 2019 05:19
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FYI - Meeple League is also starting up a new season of TTA league, with the expansion. I haven't done Meeple League before but I just enrolled, looks fun: http://www.bucketofdice.com/enterTournament.php As for goon league, I'll wait a bit longer and see if we can get to 9, then just send out groups for games to see how long it takes / who ends up enjoying it vs. not. Tell your friends!
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Oct 6, 2019 06:43
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I can't decide if I hate Dark Ages more than Rats now. On the one hand, Dark Ages doesn't murder all your science so you still have some wiggle room to work with if it's poorly timed. Whereas a poorly timed Rats could just completely murder your economic momentum and handcuff you for the entire game. And yet losing science, especially the science needed for a really crucial tech you need right the hell now, can be incredibly game changing in a way that Rats isn't. As of now I still cringe more when the Rats I was hoping wasn't seeded totally was but I'm still wary of that one time where a Dark Ages really screws me beyond what I can deal with. Both of them of course still pale in comparison to the biggest FU event in the game, Terrorism 
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Oct 6, 2019 15:21
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Super Jay Mann posted:I can't decide if I hate Dark Ages more than Rats now. I think first rotation Dark Ages is fine and does exactly what it needs to do - i.e, serve as a bit of a counterweight for Stonehenge and making sure science feels tight at all stages of the game. But yeah, it can really gently caress the game up when it makes it in to the second rotation, where the numbers are just bigger overall and you might be saving for an A2 government. I think New Leaders and Wonders actually indirectly toned down Terrorism some. The big issue with Terrorism was the situation where someone is like, going Bill Gates and trying to muscle out all of their culture in the end half of Age III - it really sucks when the "least culture" playing blowing up your poo poo has more resources than the other players combined and the civil actions to use them. But I find, in New Leaders and Wonders, that those late-game reversals are a fair bit harder, and it's a lot more likely that the player hitting you with Terrorism is "legitimately" in last place, if that makes sense.
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Oct 6, 2019 17:57
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I'd be up for a goon league, I also think 3P would probably be better. Concerning events: I always try to keep my strength up, but it happens that I fall behind and get hit by the bad side of strength events I played myself. Kinda sucks, but every game I've shied away from playing events out of fear of getting hit, I regret it post-game because not knowing what's coming and thus being unable to react to the events is still worse.
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Oct 7, 2019 09:57
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Count me in as interested in the league. Same username (wizzardstaff) on CGE.
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Oct 9, 2019 22:55
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Awesome! Looks like nimby has the same CGE name. If Phelddagrif give their CGE name / gets the xpac we have 9 players. When that happens I'll just assign people into three 3p games, and we can just kind of see how it goes before committing to a full league. I've also sent friend requests to everyone, just to see profiles so I can try to get a vague sense of how to try to balance the games.
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Oct 10, 2019 04:52
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Hi yes I'm alive! Sorry, tax deadline's coming up and work's been kicking my butt. I'll get my info updated tonight.
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Oct 10, 2019 16:20
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Oh, should have mentioned my preferences for game style. I'm cool with whatever player count; preferentially I play 3-4 but no problem with 2. I am not good with live games but I like the fastest async modes and usually respond pretty quickly. It's hard to find a full hour to devote to playing but I can scrape together 5 minutes every 3 hours. Not a whole lot of experience with the expansion yet but so far I am liking a random mix of leaders/wonders in every game.
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Oct 10, 2019 22:41
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Awesome Phelddagrif, looking forward to it. Also, let's get some more thread content going and do some rankings of Age A leaders. I'll put out preliminary writeups and y'all can weigh in on how you feel about them. I'll use a system of two 1-4 scores: First number - Impact. In the situations where you'd pick this leader, how much do they advance your chance to win vs. another leader? Second number - Range. How often is this leader worth picking? How much does it limit your plays for later? How much does luck need to "break your way" when you take this leader? The scores will be weighed to their tier, so age A leaders can still be a 4 even if they can't possibly as much impact as the difference between later games leaders. But I didn't put any Age A leaders at 1 for either impact or range, which feels correct because it would be pretty wacky balance to have someone who doesn't work well in the blank slate everyone starts on. But let me know if you disagree and feel like one leader is unquestionable worse/less flexible than any others. Alexander The Great (+1 STR/unit. As a political action, you can remove from the game for +1 yellow) 4/3 When Alexander gets the nut draw - Fighting Band/Legion, and some aggressions - he lets you pull off Age 1 aggressions far more reliably than any other Age A leader. If you don't, just cash him out for the early yellow token that lets you put off developing happiness for longer. He'd be a 4/1 if it wasn't for the yellow token. Aristotle (+1 Science when you take technology) 3/4 Science is always good; Aristotle gives you some. Hooray! Easy to use, you don't need to play him until you start taking techs, he's good throughout Age I if you have your heart really set on one certain leader who comes late in the flop. Perfect example of a high-range leader. Just watch out for hand limit - you really don't want to be stranded on 4CA with 3 techs in hand. Ashoka (If you have 2 different color civil cards in your hand, you produce +1 resource. If 3, also +1 food.) 3/2 Annoyingly dependent on the card row, but 3->4 rocks is really good early on, anyway. It can be nice to pick up an Age I leader early and just leave them in your hand for a bit for the production, so keep that play in mind. Boudica (At the start of each turn, gain +2 rocks for military units if you are the weakest (2p) or one of two weakest (3+p) civs. Otherwise, choose one of +1 food, +1 science, +1 resource.) 4/2 Choosing one of food/science/resource for your specific situation is incredible. Rocks for military units are rarely useful - you're highly limited on food/happiness early, so rocks aren't usually your military stumbling block, not to mention that building military units FOR rocks is a fairly frequently anti-corruption strategy. So take Boudica if you think it's likely you'll be the strongest, but she's very foolish to take when your opponents have or could have Sun Tzu/Caesar. Caesar (+1 STR, +1 MA. You can play 2 political actions) 3/3 Going for 2 to 3 MA means an extra draw every turn, and that's the big draw of Caesar. More draws make it easier to get tactics, helps colonization by letting you stockpile defense cards (and gives you a better sense of how many defense cards are left), gives you more control over what events you seed, and let you know more events that AREN'T in the game that you don't need to play around (great for Dark Ages and Rats, amazing for Rebellion). Also, the double-action is great with double aggressions - early game, it's super common to have a situation where 1 aggression is guaranteed to fail, but the second one on the same target is guaranteed to succeed. Cleopatra (Each action phase, you have +1 rock for urban buildings or wonders) 2/2 Free building resources are never bad, but Cleopatra gets as close as possible. Urban buildings are STRONGLY food-limited early, and wonders are huge corruption sinks such that the free resource can sometimes feel like more of a penalty. Unlike all other leaders, I think it's sometimes better to open 2nd Philosophy instead of 3rd Mine on Cleopatra's first turn. Confucius (When you prep an event or Confucius leaves play, score +1 science. You can prepare non-event cards as events; treat them as "all players score +1 science.") 3/2 Like Aristotle, and you even get to avoid clogging your hand...but you need to play events, and he doesn't give you extra event draws. Being able to play non-event cards means you always can play SOMETHING, but you don't get much control. You might have to pitch defense cards, making you more vulnerable; pitch tactics cards and lower your growth potential; or just end up playing events that might not be the best for you. And what do you once the Age A events are gone, and you have to consider whether you'll seed as not-the-strongest-player? Confucius vs. Aristotle is a great example of how leaders with nearly identical impacts can have really different ranges. Hammurabi (Once per turn, spend 1MA as 1CA) 3/3 A free Civil Action is really, really strong. But it's balanced out by losing an event draw when you do it - take all of that praise for the extra draw I mentioned in Caesar's section, and reverse them. It's still worth using it pretty much every turn aside from maybe the first turn (I wouldn't take an Age A yellow card over an event draw unless it was Engineering Genius A). But make sure to always consider what happens if ALL other players target you with aggression, especially if one is Caesar, before choosing whether or not to use the free action. Hippocrates (At the start of each turn, add a yellow token to your government [max 3]. Gain 1 each End of Age.) 3/4 Yellows are good for everyone, and not getting your first one until Age II isn't as bad as you'd think. Make sure you keep him out at least 2 turns, but the third one isn't as impactful. Homer (+1 Happiness, +1 rock for military units/turn. When replaced, you can make a wonder permanently give +1 Happiness instead of refunding the CA.) 3/2 As with Boudica, the military rock doesn't matter much, but the happy face really does. Homer lets you eke value out of your population early by letting you skip a temple, and Homer and 1 other source of happiness like Theocracy, a Development of Religion temple, or Colosseum lets you put off happiness until Age II. Having said that, the fact that you can't replace Homer until you finish your wonder can be kind of limiting, especially since you also have one less CA that turn. So he comes with some fuss. Moses (-1 Food for population increase) 2/2 Quite strong with Hanging Gardens. But in general, he ends up pinching your civil actions a fair bit, and a lot of the potential rewards for having the extra population are bound up in...the Age A leaders you couldn't take instead. It's nice that Moses makes it easier to get in to Libraries early on and start investing for latter ages. Sun Tzu (+1 STR. Your tactics don't become common while Sun Tzu is in play. Draw 2 additional military cards/turn. When Sun Tzu leaves play, your current tactic gains +1 STR permanently.) 2/4 Look at all of the perks I mentioned for the extra draw for Caesar - Sun Tzu gets 2! gently caress yeah! Mostly ignore the other stuff. Sun Tzu gives you more lottery tickets to try to hit on an Age I plan than anyone else, and that rules. To make up for this cool benefit, his departure benefit benefits everyone, not just you. Think of Sun Tzu's principle resource as luck. If Jan Žižka is in the game, don't have Sun Tzu exit the game on Fighting Band unless you're the one who grabbed Jan. Protip - if you have Knights and no one else does, it's often correct to play a tactic with Cavalry in it before having him leave play, even if you don't have Knights researched/recruited yet.
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Oct 11, 2019 00:27
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Does the expansion let you know what leaders are available at the start or are they by surprise? I want to start playing this game again but I tend to get obsessed and start running 6-12 games at once when I do. I'll wait a few more weeks before jumping in again.
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Oct 11, 2019 00:49
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Chill la Chill posted:Does the expansion let you know what leaders are available at the start or are they by surprise? I want to start playing this game again but I tend to get obsessed and start running 6-12 games at once when I do. I'll wait a few more weeks before jumping in again. Yep, you get to know which leaders are on offer. Very important for build-arounds like Shakespeare and Watt.
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Oct 11, 2019 00:50
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Yeah you can always click the various decks and see what is shuffled in
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Oct 11, 2019 00:55
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Bottom Liner posted:Yeah you can always click the various decks and see what is shuffled in Theres also a little green/blue deck icon by the other decks that just show leaders and wonders
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Oct 11, 2019 01:05
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hito posted:Also, let's get some more thread content going and do some rankings of Age A leaders. I'll put out preliminary writeups and y'all can weigh in on how you feel about them. I'll use a system of two 1-4 scores: Strong, strong disagree on both Hammurabi and Cleo. Hammurabi was and still is the best Age A leader imo and Cleopatra isn't far behind. Cleo is very flexible in a way a lot of Age A leaders aren't, and the worrying about corruption or urban building yellows is overblown because the entire point of using her is providing an immediate, turn 1 jump start to your economy without having to sacrifice anything or rely on fortuitous card row movement to do so. You must invest in both long-term science and happiness in all but the most edge of edge cases to succeed in this game and the way you do that is, surprise, wonders and/or urban buildings.
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Oct 11, 2019 02:15
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Ok, I'm all set. Online account name is TemujinNC. Going to try a few practice runs against AI to check out the new stuffs.
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Oct 11, 2019 02:23
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Hammurabi is a no question 4/4. He's still the best age A leader even with his nerf. An extra civil action that early in the game is huge. If everyone get's real aggressive, just don't use his ability for a turn or two, but I rarely see that actually happen in practice.
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Oct 11, 2019 04:47
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I'm just now getting solid against med AI but I really love any of the leaders that give you versatility like that. Boudica is my priority usually because no matter what situation I end up in it gives me a bonus to get out.
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Oct 11, 2019 04:56
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Phelddagrif posted:Ok, I'm all set. Online account name is TemujinNC. Awesome. Bedtime now, but I'll try to have my ducks in a row tomorrow after work. Super Jay Mann posted:Strong, strong disagree on both Hammurabi and Cleo. Hammurabi was and still is the best Age A leader imo and Cleopatra isn't far behind. Cleo is very flexible in a way a lot of Age A leaders aren't, and the worrying about corruption or urban building yellows is overblown because the entire point of using her is providing an immediate, turn 1 jump start to your economy without having to sacrifice anything or rely on fortuitous card row movement to do so. You must invest in both long-term science and happiness in all but the most edge of edge cases to succeed in this game and the way you do that is, surprise, wonders and/or urban buildings. Megasabin posted:Hammurabi is a no question 4/4. He's still the best age A leader even with his nerf. An extra civil action that early in the game is huge. If everyone get's real aggressive, just don't use his ability for a turn or two, but I rarely see that actually happen in practice. Maybe I'm just not good enough at playing around corruption with Cleo! I'll try to force her in my next few games and think more critically about it. In the meantime, what would you put Cleo at perosnally? 3/3 because you want Wonders with better build patterns for her (Pyramids vs. Roman Roads), or can you play her anywhere and she's more like 3/4? For Hammurabi, yeah, the civil is so great that he's probably a 4 impact even with the event draw penalty. I do wanna push back on the range being 4 for him - I think that a military leader spiking in early strength is still a huge problem for the Hammurabi player, both in the first order "I have fewer cards total to defend aggressions" and the second order "because I've discarded fewer cards, each card I've held on has less choice behind it - if I'm equal strength with another player and a bully is choosing between us, the bully player knows that my cards are less likely to be defense cards than the other player and will prioritize me". To me, it feels like a game going really scrappy really early (especially when it's Sun Tzu getting Fighting Band/Legion in their first draw - you can't even copy your way out) is still a rough situation for the Hammurabi player, who has to choose between blanking their leader card or getting the tar kicked out of them by aggressions or a torrent of strength events. Whereas Aristotle and Hippocrates, I feel, don't have any comparable situation where you're like "well, if I had known it would be like this, I wouldn't have wanted this leader".
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Oct 11, 2019 06:21
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hito posted:To me, it feels like a game going really scrappy really early (especially when it's Sun Tzu getting Fighting Band/Legion in their first draw - you can't even copy your way out) is still a rough situation for the Hammurabi player, who has to choose between blanking their leader card or getting the tar kicked out of them by aggressions or a torrent of strength events. Whereas Aristotle and Hippocrates, I feel, don't have any comparable situation where you're like "well, if I had known it would be like this, I wouldn't have wanted this leader". It's exactly this type of flexibility that makes Hammurabi work honestly. Yeah, you might be forced into a situation where you may want to forgo using the MA as a CA in order to properly protect yourself but at least you have that option, which is the same as any other leader with an ability that assumes any sort of risk. Incidentally, the situation you described is explicitly why Hammurabi in the original TTA actually was total garbage. In that game it straight up converted the MA to a CA which meant you never had a choice in the matter and you were always stuck with a hand size of 1 and a max draw of 1 and could only built 1 unit a turn and it was a total nightmare and almost never worth the trouble unless you pulled Monarchy turn 2 or something (and keep in mind using non-defense cards on aggressions wasn't a thing in that game either). As for Cleo, I think a problem I see from comments about her in general is the way people mentally approach her power. "Oh, you have to build wonders slowly turn by turn to make the most of her ability or else you're not being optimal, but that leads to corruption issues." Uh no, her power isn't being efficient, her power is being an accelerant, which is a completely different thing altogether. You do all the same stuff you usually do building up your Age I economy, you just do it faster. She's not the type of leader you can ride through all of Age I like an Ahsoka or Boudica or Aristotle. She gets your second philosophy and/or temple/arena up (maybe some alchemy if you get lucky) she gets your Age A wonder and maybe an early Age I wonder up, and then you cut bait and transition to your Age I leader and midgame strategy. That's the roadmap you're looking for when using her. And, as I alluded to in my previous post, her ability is entirely 100% free, a fact that I think isn't stressed enough when considering her power relative to other leaders. Using your rating system, I'd probably put both Hammurabi and Cleo at 3/4. Other leaders have effects with greater potential impacts (an Aristotle or Sun Tzu when luck breaks their way is NOT to be trifled with) which is the reason why I think 3 fits them best.
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Oct 11, 2019 07:17
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That's funny - we're kind of flipping our numbers for impact vs. range, so maybe that's a sign my definitions are too floaty to be useful. Will have to think about it. Anyway, let's kick off some games and just see what happens! If your name is in brackets, you host it. Use the "reversed slot" functionality to save their slots and use these settings: Card set: Random Mix Rules: Digital Speed: Medium Async Autostart Listed names are the CGE names, not the SA games. goon league prelim 1: [The_General] / DanWins / wizzardstaff goon league prelim 2: [hito] / StashAugstine / nimby goon league prelim 3: [J-Man] / arcee / TemujinNC
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Oct 13, 2019 06:58
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Game 3 is up and ready to start whenever rchandra and Phelddagrif are ready
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Oct 13, 2019 07:38
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Here's hoping notifications work - my current game had them stop, I'm hoping it's just because some jerk timed out and became a bot.
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Oct 13, 2019 09:46
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I created our game. Wish me luck.
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Oct 13, 2019 11:00
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rchandra posted:Here's hoping notifications work - my current game had them stop, I'm hoping it's just because some jerk timed out and became a bot. Me too; never played online before and I'm going to be out of the house all day. Got it running on my phone so hopefully I'll get alerted when it's my turn.
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Oct 13, 2019 17:19
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When someone becomes a bot the notifications seem inconsistent. Most of the time they work, sometimes not. But outside that they're fine. An update to either the app or my phone's system made it so that notifications no longer open a game from my lock screen, they just go to the lobby. That's another 10 seconds of waiting I have to do!
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Oct 13, 2019 19:03
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GG. I did better than I thought I was going to. Losing those swordsmen really messed me up.
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Oct 16, 2019 05:32
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