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hito
Feb 13, 2012

Thank you, kids. By giving us this lift you're giving a lift to every law-abiding citizen in the world.


What is it?

Through the Ages is a civilization board game by legendary designer Vlaada Chvátil. First coming out as Through the Ages: A Story of Civilization in 2006, it was re-released with significant balance improvements as Through The Ages: A New Story of Civilization in 2015. An expansion, New Leaders And Wonders, was released in 2019.

There's also an app adaptation, widely regarded as one of the best board game apps of all time. It's available on Steam, the app store, and Google Play. Online multiplayer is cross-platform. You DO have to buy the app for each storefront you want to play; however, if you set up a CGE account, you only need to buy the expansion once to have it everywhere.

Why should I play it?

Through the Ages is a highly strategic game that gives you a lot of options and flexibility. You have to balance managing your military, technological prowess, food and resource production, governmental efficiency, and culture to win the game. You know from the start what cards will come on the main card offer, but not their order - you have to choose things as they come and try to adapt, while still being able to control the randomness.

It has a system of "civil and military actions", where your turns aren't segmented up in to phases, but instead let you take actions in any order. Adding to the complexity, cards start on the card row costing 3 civil actions, decreasing to 2 and then 1 as the cards in front of them are taking. What this means is that you have a giant variety of potential actions on a given turn, giving you lots of opportunity to demonstrate your prowess or make mistakes. Your fate is in your hands.

Should I play the physical board game?

Probably not. It's fiddly and it takes a long time in person. More importantly, it's hard to keep track of things if you block out a potential turn then evaluate what a different turn looks like - a process that's extremely common in Through the Ages, and one the app makes effortless. It even has pass and play, so it's possible to play with people in person. If the tactile sensation is important to you, board game Through The Ages is still really good, but you'll be forcing yourself to do a lot of cube upkeep that the app can just ~get rid of~.

Should I get the expansion?

Yes. Maybe try a couple games without to make sure you like it, but the expansion adds an entirely new dimension of depth to the game with the "random mix" mode and is easily worth the five bucks.

How do I play?

The tutorial in the app is extremely well done; start there. I plan to record a new player tutorial video soon (I did one a couple of years back, but that was pre-expansion and I was also a lot worse.)

Are the bots good?

Yes! Surprisingly for a board game app, the hard bots hold their own pretty well. They don't jockey for relative strength and use the event deck quite as well as human players, and of course they can't find some of the truly esoteric plays a human can imagine, but someone who beats the hard bots consistently is definitely ready to play online. So if you have performance anxiety, never fear - you can get strong in private.

What leaders and wonders are good?

Part of my goal for this thread is to work on a goon tier list, so watch this space!

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hito
Feb 13, 2012

Thank you, kids. By giving us this lift you're giving a lift to every law-abiding citizen in the world.
GOON LEAGUE PRELIMINARY

(SA Name / CGE Name)
hito/ flaminghito
StashAugstine / StashAugstine
Super Jay Mann / J-Man
Megasabin / DanWins
rchandra / Arcee
Phelddagrif / TemujinNC
The General / The_General
nimby / nimby
wizzardstaff / wizzardstaff

hito fucked around with this message at 02:23 on Oct 23, 2019

hito
Feb 13, 2012

Thank you, kids. By giving us this lift you're giving a lift to every law-abiding citizen in the world.
Also true! I guess a really relevant discussion point is whether people would prefer a live league (players have X time to commit to a timeslot where they'll sit down and play an entire blitz game), or an asyc league (players have X time to complete their async game.)

I guess it's my personal bias that I prefer live games, because it's easier to keep things straight in your head when you hit it all at once instead of in drips and drabs. But if async is the more popular option, I'll suck it up.

hito
Feb 13, 2012

Thank you, kids. By giving us this lift you're giving a lift to every law-abiding citizen in the world.

silvergoose posted:

I think my question about the tournament is: is it mp or 2p. mp I don't think I can handle; takes longer and requires harder scheduling (or for async takes WAY longer). 2p...maybe?

I think my personal inclination is 3p. Higher player numbers ARE longer; but 2p is just a fundamentally different game because anything you do to deny your opponent directly benefits you.

I guess that we could just do async tournament, and it's always possible to get an informal agreement of "You two want to get together at datetime X and do a bunch of rounds?" So async is probably strictly better because you can still do live if it works for everyone and not if it doesn't.

hito
Feb 13, 2012

Thank you, kids. By giving us this lift you're giving a lift to every law-abiding citizen in the world.

rchandra posted:

Arcee on CGE. I'd try one 3p async league game to see how it goes.

That's a good idea - before starting a league, it'd probably be good to just split folks into groups and run one game to kind of establish how it would feel and see who'd be in to it.

Does Medium Async (12 hrs to respond/take turns, 3 days reserve/age) sound good to everyone, at least for a first trial game?

Elysium posted:

I just finally beat the Age of Wonders challenge (mixed exp) after about 40 attempts. It's so godamn hard. I then crushed the World of Wonders challenge in 4 (really should have been 2, I lost my second attempt by 1 point on a completely random decision I made on the last turn).

Also going on at least 5 years of actual board game ownership with 0 plays...

Grats! Yeah, that one looks like a nightmare.

hito
Feb 13, 2012

Thank you, kids. By giving us this lift you're giving a lift to every law-abiding citizen in the world.
FYI - Meeple League is also starting up a new season of TTA league, with the expansion. I haven't done Meeple League before but I just enrolled, looks fun: http://www.bucketofdice.com/enterTournament.php

As for goon league, I'll wait a bit longer and see if we can get to 9, then just send out groups for games to see how long it takes / who ends up enjoying it vs. not. Tell your friends!

hito
Feb 13, 2012

Thank you, kids. By giving us this lift you're giving a lift to every law-abiding citizen in the world.

Super Jay Mann posted:

I can't decide if I hate Dark Ages more than Rats now.

On the one hand, Dark Ages doesn't murder all your science so you still have some wiggle room to work with if it's poorly timed. Whereas a poorly timed Rats could just completely murder your economic momentum and handcuff you for the entire game.

And yet losing science, especially the science needed for a really crucial tech you need right the hell now, can be incredibly game changing in a way that Rats isn't. As of now I still cringe more when the Rats I was hoping wasn't seeded totally was but I'm still wary of that one time where a Dark Ages really screws me beyond what I can deal with.

Both of them of course still pale in comparison to the biggest FU event in the game, Terrorism :argh: :argh: :argh:

I think first rotation Dark Ages is fine and does exactly what it needs to do - i.e, serve as a bit of a counterweight for Stonehenge and making sure science feels tight at all stages of the game. But yeah, it can really gently caress the game up when it makes it in to the second rotation, where the numbers are just bigger overall and you might be saving for an A2 government.

I think New Leaders and Wonders actually indirectly toned down Terrorism some. The big issue with Terrorism was the situation where someone is like, going Bill Gates and trying to muscle out all of their culture in the end half of Age III - it really sucks when the "least culture" playing blowing up your poo poo has more resources than the other players combined and the civil actions to use them. But I find, in New Leaders and Wonders, that those late-game reversals are a fair bit harder, and it's a lot more likely that the player hitting you with Terrorism is "legitimately" in last place, if that makes sense.

hito
Feb 13, 2012

Thank you, kids. By giving us this lift you're giving a lift to every law-abiding citizen in the world.
Awesome! Looks like nimby has the same CGE name. If Phelddagrif give their CGE name / gets the xpac we have 9 players. When that happens I'll just assign people into three 3p games, and we can just kind of see how it goes before committing to a full league. I've also sent friend requests to everyone, just to see profiles so I can try to get a vague sense of how to try to balance the games.

hito
Feb 13, 2012

Thank you, kids. By giving us this lift you're giving a lift to every law-abiding citizen in the world.
Awesome Phelddagrif, looking forward to it.

Also, let's get some more thread content going and do some rankings of Age A leaders. I'll put out preliminary writeups and y'all can weigh in on how you feel about them. I'll use a system of two 1-4 scores:

First number - Impact. In the situations where you'd pick this leader, how much do they advance your chance to win vs. another leader?
Second number - Range. How often is this leader worth picking? How much does it limit your plays for later? How much does luck need to "break your way" when you take this leader?

The scores will be weighed to their tier, so age A leaders can still be a 4 even if they can't possibly as much impact as the difference between later games leaders. But I didn't put any Age A leaders at 1 for either impact or range, which feels correct because it would be pretty wacky balance to have someone who doesn't work well in the blank slate everyone starts on. But let me know if you disagree and feel like one leader is unquestionable worse/less flexible than any others.

Alexander The Great
(+1 STR/unit. As a political action, you can remove from the game for +1 yellow)
4/3
When Alexander gets the nut draw - Fighting Band/Legion, and some aggressions - he lets you pull off Age 1 aggressions far more reliably than any other Age A leader. If you don't, just cash him out for the early yellow token that lets you put off developing happiness for longer. He'd be a 4/1 if it wasn't for the yellow token.

Aristotle
(+1 Science when you take technology)
3/4
Science is always good; Aristotle gives you some. Hooray! Easy to use, you don't need to play him until you start taking techs, he's good throughout Age I if you have your heart really set on one certain leader who comes late in the flop. Perfect example of a high-range leader. Just watch out for hand limit - you really don't want to be stranded on 4CA with 3 techs in hand.

Ashoka
(If you have 2 different color civil cards in your hand, you produce +1 resource. If 3, also +1 food.)
3/2
Annoyingly dependent on the card row, but 3->4 rocks is really good early on, anyway. It can be nice to pick up an Age I leader early and just leave them in your hand for a bit for the production, so keep that play in mind.

Boudica
(At the start of each turn, gain +2 rocks for military units if you are the weakest (2p) or one of two weakest (3+p) civs. Otherwise, choose one of +1 food, +1 science, +1 resource.)
4/2
Choosing one of food/science/resource for your specific situation is incredible. Rocks for military units are rarely useful - you're highly limited on food/happiness early, so rocks aren't usually your military stumbling block, not to mention that building military units FOR rocks is a fairly frequently anti-corruption strategy. So take Boudica if you think it's likely you'll be the strongest, but she's very foolish to take when your opponents have or could have Sun Tzu/Caesar.

Caesar
(+1 STR, +1 MA. You can play 2 political actions)
3/3
Going for 2 to 3 MA means an extra draw every turn, and that's the big draw of Caesar. More draws make it easier to get tactics, helps colonization by letting you stockpile defense cards (and gives you a better sense of how many defense cards are left), gives you more control over what events you seed, and let you know more events that AREN'T in the game that you don't need to play around (great for Dark Ages and Rats, amazing for Rebellion). Also, the double-action is great with double aggressions - early game, it's super common to have a situation where 1 aggression is guaranteed to fail, but the second one on the same target is guaranteed to succeed.

Cleopatra
(Each action phase, you have +1 rock for urban buildings or wonders)
2/2
Free building resources are never bad, but Cleopatra gets as close as possible. Urban buildings are STRONGLY food-limited early, and wonders are huge corruption sinks such that the free resource can sometimes feel like more of a penalty. Unlike all other leaders, I think it's sometimes better to open 2nd Philosophy instead of 3rd Mine on Cleopatra's first turn.

Confucius
(When you prep an event or Confucius leaves play, score +1 science. You can prepare non-event cards as events; treat them as "all players score +1 science.")
3/2
Like Aristotle, and you even get to avoid clogging your hand...but you need to play events, and he doesn't give you extra event draws. Being able to play non-event cards means you always can play SOMETHING, but you don't get much control. You might have to pitch defense cards, making you more vulnerable; pitch tactics cards and lower your growth potential; or just end up playing events that might not be the best for you. And what do you once the Age A events are gone, and you have to consider whether you'll seed as not-the-strongest-player? Confucius vs. Aristotle is a great example of how leaders with nearly identical impacts can have really different ranges.

Hammurabi
(Once per turn, spend 1MA as 1CA)
3/3
A free Civil Action is really, really strong. But it's balanced out by losing an event draw when you do it - take all of that praise for the extra draw I mentioned in Caesar's section, and reverse them. It's still worth using it pretty much every turn aside from maybe the first turn (I wouldn't take an Age A yellow card over an event draw unless it was Engineering Genius A). But make sure to always consider what happens if ALL other players target you with aggression, especially if one is Caesar, before choosing whether or not to use the free action.

Hippocrates
(At the start of each turn, add a yellow token to your government [max 3]. Gain 1 each End of Age.)
3/4
Yellows are good for everyone, and not getting your first one until Age II isn't as bad as you'd think. Make sure you keep him out at least 2 turns, but the third one isn't as impactful.

Homer
(+1 Happiness, +1 rock for military units/turn. When replaced, you can make a wonder permanently give +1 Happiness instead of refunding the CA.)
3/2
As with Boudica, the military rock doesn't matter much, but the happy face really does. Homer lets you eke value out of your population early by letting you skip a temple, and Homer and 1 other source of happiness like Theocracy, a Development of Religion temple, or Colosseum lets you put off happiness until Age II. Having said that, the fact that you can't replace Homer until you finish your wonder can be kind of limiting, especially since you also have one less CA that turn. So he comes with some fuss.

Moses
(-1 Food for population increase)
2/2
Quite strong with Hanging Gardens. But in general, he ends up pinching your civil actions a fair bit, and a lot of the potential rewards for having the extra population are bound up in...the Age A leaders you couldn't take instead. It's nice that Moses makes it easier to get in to Libraries early on and start investing for latter ages.

Sun Tzu
(+1 STR. Your tactics don't become common while Sun Tzu is in play. Draw 2 additional military cards/turn. When Sun Tzu leaves play, your current tactic gains +1 STR permanently.)
2/4
Look at all of the perks I mentioned for the extra draw for Caesar - Sun Tzu gets 2! gently caress yeah! Mostly ignore the other stuff. Sun Tzu gives you more lottery tickets to try to hit on an Age I plan than anyone else, and that rules. To make up for this cool benefit, his departure benefit benefits everyone, not just you. Think of Sun Tzu's principle resource as luck. If Jan Žižka is in the game, don't have Sun Tzu exit the game on Fighting Band unless you're the one who grabbed Jan. Protip - if you have Knights and no one else does, it's often correct to play a tactic with Cavalry in it before having him leave play, even if you don't have Knights researched/recruited yet.

hito
Feb 13, 2012

Thank you, kids. By giving us this lift you're giving a lift to every law-abiding citizen in the world.

Chill la Chill posted:

Does the expansion let you know what leaders are available at the start or are they by surprise? I want to start playing this game again but I tend to get obsessed and start running 6-12 games at once when I do. I'll wait a few more weeks before jumping in again.

Yep, you get to know which leaders are on offer. Very important for build-arounds like Shakespeare and Watt.

hito
Feb 13, 2012

Thank you, kids. By giving us this lift you're giving a lift to every law-abiding citizen in the world.

Phelddagrif posted:

Ok, I'm all set. Online account name is TemujinNC.

Going to try a few practice runs against AI to check out the new stuffs.

Awesome. Bedtime now, but I'll try to have my ducks in a row tomorrow after work.

Super Jay Mann posted:

Strong, strong disagree on both Hammurabi and Cleo. Hammurabi was and still is the best Age A leader imo and Cleopatra isn't far behind. Cleo is very flexible in a way a lot of Age A leaders aren't, and the worrying about corruption or urban building yellows is overblown because the entire point of using her is providing an immediate, turn 1 jump start to your economy without having to sacrifice anything or rely on fortuitous card row movement to do so. You must invest in both long-term science and happiness in all but the most edge of edge cases to succeed in this game and the way you do that is, surprise, wonders and/or urban buildings.

Megasabin posted:

Hammurabi is a no question 4/4. He's still the best age A leader even with his nerf. An extra civil action that early in the game is huge. If everyone get's real aggressive, just don't use his ability for a turn or two, but I rarely see that actually happen in practice.


Maybe I'm just not good enough at playing around corruption with Cleo! I'll try to force her in my next few games and think more critically about it. In the meantime, what would you put Cleo at perosnally? 3/3 because you want Wonders with better build patterns for her (Pyramids vs. Roman Roads), or can you play her anywhere and she's more like 3/4?

For Hammurabi, yeah, the civil is so great that he's probably a 4 impact even with the event draw penalty. I do wanna push back on the range being 4 for him - I think that a military leader spiking in early strength is still a huge problem for the Hammurabi player, both in the first order "I have fewer cards total to defend aggressions" and the second order "because I've discarded fewer cards, each card I've held on has less choice behind it - if I'm equal strength with another player and a bully is choosing between us, the bully player knows that my cards are less likely to be defense cards than the other player and will prioritize me". To me, it feels like a game going really scrappy really early (especially when it's Sun Tzu getting Fighting Band/Legion in their first draw - you can't even copy your way out) is still a rough situation for the Hammurabi player, who has to choose between blanking their leader card or getting the tar kicked out of them by aggressions or a torrent of strength events. Whereas Aristotle and Hippocrates, I feel, don't have any comparable situation where you're like "well, if I had known it would be like this, I wouldn't have wanted this leader".

hito
Feb 13, 2012

Thank you, kids. By giving us this lift you're giving a lift to every law-abiding citizen in the world.
That's funny - we're kind of flipping our numbers for impact vs. range, so maybe that's a sign my definitions are too floaty to be useful. Will have to think about it.

Anyway, let's kick off some games and just see what happens! If your name is in brackets, you host it. Use the "reversed slot" functionality to save their slots and use these settings:

Card set: Random Mix
Rules: Digital
Speed: Medium Async
Autostart

Listed names are the CGE names, not the SA games.

goon league prelim 1: [The_General] / DanWins / wizzardstaff
goon league prelim 2: [hito] / StashAugstine / nimby
goon league prelim 3: [J-Man] / arcee / TemujinNC

hito
Feb 13, 2012

Thank you, kids. By giving us this lift you're giving a lift to every law-abiding citizen in the world.
Our game is complete as well! GG nimby!



There was a lot of jockeying for relative strength, without a clear single warmonger - I think maybe two aggressions succeeded the whole game, and we never had a war. Nimby pulled off a risky Republic and managed to top deck defense twice to stave off attacks from me and StashAugustine when he was still low on MA. StashAugistine had a really unfortunate turn where he took a lot of techs speculatively and got screwed out of the science to play anything by Dark Ages. Instead of his Leonardo/Alchemy turn, he essentially had to concede a turn in Age 1 because his hand was full of unplayable cards - hard to come back from! A cautionary tale about hand size for sure.

It was a funny situation where usually Bill has inevitability on his side, but in this game, nimby had no tier 2 or 3 theaters or libraries - so actually, if there had been another turn, the gap would have been closer (I had 27 CPT to his 10.) Another interesting thing to note is that I did Homer + Colosseum because I saw we had a ton of Theater based leaders (Bach, Shakespeare, Fleming, Dietrich), and figured I could use the double happy face as a start and then rely primarily on theaters. That kind of worked, but I neglected BOTH science and resources Age 1, which means I had to patch those up Age II instead of starting to go off. Still, it was a good example of how you should watch the leader pool as early as your Age A picks.

I definitely feel like I made some misplays owing to the async (a big one was delaying military a turn to upgrade coal because I was worried about resource pinch - when I MYSELF had seeded a Foray and knew I could get it with a military upgrade). I feel like going forward, I need to be a bit more deliberate about "re-downloading" my understanding of the gamestate before taking my political action especially.

EDIT: Another HUGE one I found is that it's a lot harder to remember what's in other people's hands, and you can really screw yourself if you forget to check. I ended up drafting Saladin at 2CA trying to deny him from Nimby...who had Gutenberg in his hand already. And of course it's really important to have a sense of their science burden when you're eyeing a 3CA tech and wondering if it'll make it to you next turn. I think going forward for async, I need to have a little mantra like "Check the deck, check their hands, check exclusive tactics" and do it every time I boot up the game.

Still, it was a lot of fun, and faster than I thought - sometimes life gets in the way (when I'm on-premises at work, the wifi won't let me get in), but often you get into these nice rhythms where you take turns really quickly. I'm definitely down to run this a bit more formally for whoever's interested!

hito fucked around with this message at 06:39 on Oct 17, 2019

hito
Feb 13, 2012

Thank you, kids. By giving us this lift you're giving a lift to every law-abiding citizen in the world.

nimby posted:

I saved all the defence cards I could, I think I only needed a topdecked defence once to keep me safe from both of you. I definitely got lucky I kept drawing them to be secure enough to neglect my military, though I'm not sure I needed/wanted to win that Historic Territory 2.

I found the run I was thinking of in the log and it was either two turns of topdecking or one turn of +2 draws - I guess the more accurate formulation was that you drew 2 defense cards in four draws. But it's true that the Revolt wouldn't have been a "risky" one if you had drawn the 2 defense cards already. From a hand of no military cards, you drew three cards, defended an aggression with a defense and a facedown discard, revolted with Robespierre and played Warfare to draw 1 card, and then defended another aggression with a defense card.

hito
Feb 13, 2012

Thank you, kids. By giving us this lift you're giving a lift to every law-abiding citizen in the world.
Sounds like everyone had a good time. Everyone want a formal league/have any suggestions for how to run it? My first thought is something like: three games randomly assigned, without seeding or repeats (ABC DEF GHI, ADG BEH CFI, AEI BFG CDH), then cutting the top 3 to a league final game. And just repeating those bite-sized mini leagues whenever we feel like it? But I don't know the best scoring system to determine the "best three players" from the nine games.

hito
Feb 13, 2012

Thank you, kids. By giving us this lift you're giving a lift to every law-abiding citizen in the world.

wizzardstaff posted:

How about we award 3/2/1 match points for 1st/2nd/3rd place and take the total after three rounds?

This seems reasonable, with first tiebreaker being number of 1st place games, and 2nd tiebreaker being average distance from 2nd in 1st place finishes?

Also, something else to think about - would folks rather I just assume they're in for each successive mini-league unless they post to opt out? Or would you rather we get everyone to explicitly re-confirm interest each time? The latter is a little more professional, but I worry it'd make the thread kind of annoying to read.

hito
Feb 13, 2012

Thank you, kids. By giving us this lift you're giving a lift to every law-abiding citizen in the world.
Yep, I'm on the Himeji train as well. Basilica can still be better in some scenarios, and actually I think I take Machu Picchu over either if I'm on Iron AND Irrigation, but the +2CPT makes Himeji good even when you don't need the sacrifice power, and the freedom to half-rear end military really opens up the kind of plays you can do.

Also agree that Suez rules and you should try to keep a good colony in hand in games where it's going to be on the offer. Statue of Liberty can also be a life-saver depending on your food/happy face situation. I always FEEL like there's great potential with going for Harvard and Republic to just slam a million yellow cards, but my playthoughs with Harvard have actually been largely disappointing, especially in contrast to how strong the other new Age II wonders are.

While this is bumped - reminder that I'm lookin for feedback on how we might want to do a recurrent goon league:

hito posted:

This seems reasonable, with first tiebreaker being number of 1st place games, and 2nd tiebreaker being average distance from 2nd in 1st place finishes?

Also, something else to think about - would folks rather I just assume they're in for each successive mini-league unless they post to opt out? Or would you rather we get everyone to explicitly re-confirm interest each time? The latter is a little more professional, but I worry it'd make the thread kind of annoying to read.

I'm mostly through my first season of Meeple League, and it's been a lot of fun.

hito
Feb 13, 2012

Thank you, kids. By giving us this lift you're giving a lift to every law-abiding citizen in the world.
In my experience, having 3 science from 2 philosophies and Silk Road, plus the extra science on Breakthrough and Cultural Heritage is just enough that you don't need Alchemy or an Age I science leader. I've taken it for that reason before. It kinda sits in the same spot as Universitas Carolina; a little less consistent science now, but with more utility later in the game with +2 MA patriotism and maybe the odd food and rock here and there.

Definitely on the weaker side but justified if you miss your other science options.

hito
Feb 13, 2012

Thank you, kids. By giving us this lift you're giving a lift to every law-abiding citizen in the world.
Got another LP up if people want to watch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akMn_EsXJvI

Trying to do a bunch of Random Mix videos to show how your strategy should adapt to the leader pool. So would love any c.crits you have about presentation or whatever because I kind of want to snap off a lot of these.

hito
Feb 13, 2012

Thank you, kids. By giving us this lift you're giving a lift to every law-abiding citizen in the world.

Tekopo posted:

I kind of like Machu Picchu but it requires the cards to fall exactly in the right order to be effective. If you do manage to get it with Iron, you can supercharge your production and also fix any food issues, but you need to have iron and Machu Picchu to come up really early to make it worth it. My highest points game ever was early iron into Machu Picchu and then early Opera with Bach: since I had the food and ore from Machu Picchu it was incredibly easy to go up to 3 opera early and with 14 culture per turn just from Bach and the operas I built an incredible lead. But without getting lucky on card timings, Machu Picchu is incredibly lackluster.

I agree re: Machu Picchu being pretty situational, but you can kind of make your own luck by increasing Iron priority in games with MP in them. In my experience it's fine if Machu Picchu comes later in Age 1, as long as you get Iron online soon enough.

rchandra posted:

Don't frantically click the mouse!

Nice game. At the end, around 52:00, isn't 2nd Air Force better than starting on a 3rd army? Needing one less unit for similar strength would probably let you build more of your urban buildings.

Aww nuts, I think you're right on the Air Force. Marlene makes me dumb sometimes.

hito
Feb 13, 2012

Thank you, kids. By giving us this lift you're giving a lift to every law-abiding citizen in the world.
Yeah, I think there's a pretty big scale between different pacts. Naval Trade I agree is one I'm usually pretty happy to take the cubes for if the person offering doesn't have colonization modifier already and a different player in the game does. And like rchandra said, +food/+rock and food->rock/rock->food are both usually safe to take, after a quick sanity check you're not taking away a huge limiter from your opponent (don't give Daddy Barb food! He's eaten enough).

Scientific Cooperation I think can make sense in exactly the situation "I'm offering this to an opponent who benefits from it more generally (more civils, science, Newton, etc.) BUT it takes me over the edge this turn specifically for a tech I really want." I think it's pretty easy to imagine that getting a double skip government/production upgrade one turn sooner, or a tactic-enabling military unit in response to a war declaration, is worth so much for the asker that they'll offer it to someone who can kind of milk them on it generally. Supremacy might actually be my leader for biggest trap; I've had so many games where I accepted Supremacy because I was still on 3 rocks, then ballooned my military and had to waste a precious Era III political action canceling it. It's often worth it when it's offered and you don't have aggressions in hand, but it just sticks around into the stage when you really need the ability to threaten everyone.

Super Jay Mann posted:

all the Age III pacts are useful in their own way, most hilarious being screwing over the military player by insulating their only useful target from war decs :getin:

One of the only thing that tilts me in this game is when this happens while the insulated player is on course to win and the game ends with the insulated player in first, me in second, and the offerer in third/forth. Before denying the bully, make sure that the person they plan on bullying doesn't deserve it!

hito
Feb 13, 2012

Thank you, kids. By giving us this lift you're giving a lift to every law-abiding citizen in the world.
That's a frustrating picture - you're three science short of just taking Infantry and Tanks and saying "loving try me buddy". I prioritize Age II military techs really highly for that reason.

Yeah, if you're way ahead of Blue I think you have to force end because I think Red has a huge incentive to do the extra turn and hope Blue hits you. Even if they have a lot of civils, I think as Red here I just throw my civils away if needed to ensure that Blue has a chance to kneecap you, assuming that would have the effect of lowering the top non-Red score.

Incidentially, I think in your shoes I would play Agriculture on your last turn and build two Selective Breedings by dismantling one Alchemy (unless a frontrunner has insane agriculture obviously). Building up food production right now ALSO helps for Balance and Harmony, so it's really efficient.

hito
Feb 13, 2012

Thank you, kids. By giving us this lift you're giving a lift to every law-abiding citizen in the world.
https://account.czechgames.com/tournaments/ to save y'all a click.

Only a few slots left in Celebration Trio/Quartet, sign up now if it interests you! I'll be playing in both.

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hito
Feb 13, 2012

Thank you, kids. By giving us this lift you're giving a lift to every law-abiding citizen in the world.
For folks that got in flight one of the Celebration games, how'd it turn out?

My initial showing in Trios was super underwhelming - 0-1-2 - though in my defense I had two very strong players in my group ( deluks917 and vitek, the latter of whom - at least by CGE's scoring system - won the whole thing). But since the second stage is seeded and I placed 6th in my group, I was in group 6 for the second stage and had a pretty dominant 3-0-0 (with win margins of 11, 43, and 90).

In Quartets, I did a fair bit better. 2-2-0-0 in Stage 1, but taking second place because I had a group with deluks917 AGAIN and they were also 2-2-0-0 with a better head to head. So I was in Group 2, but despite the group being seeded with second place finishers I still managed to repeat 2-2-0-0, this time with no one tying so it's an uncontested group win. (Technically there's one game left in Group 2, but no matter who wins I'll have the most points.) That feels pretty respectable to me!

It was super disorenieting having trios, quarters, and meeple league at the same time - sometimes I'd wake up and play eight bleary-eyed turns from bed. My play suffered a bit and I want to try to be more discerning. But having said that, I don't have many games right now, so let's try doing Goon League through the ingame tournament system this time.

I'm thinking Default Async, 4p, and 7 players total (which means 4 games each), but want to open it up for votes before doin my preferences by fiat. No need to sign up explictly - I'll just post a link in this thread when we get a rough quorum on settings - although feel free to positively affirm that you want in if you want an invite to make sure you get a slot.

hito fucked around with this message at 01:29 on Jun 6, 2020

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