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but i just want to say this thread is good stuff and it's not something you're going to find, uhh... anywhere (in english)
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Dec 2, 2019 09:27
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this thread is cool and good, really interesting
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Dec 2, 2019 09:49
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The Amana name lives on in air conditioners and appliances though the actual Amana Society sold off the refrigeration division fifty years ago.
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Dec 2, 2019 14:45
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Kangxi posted:So who is this Wang Huning guy? Thank you so much for doing this– excellent work! imo Wang Huning is the most fascinating figure in Chinese politics today. I spend a fair amount of time scrounging for info on current Politburo members so this is a wonderful resource.
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Dec 2, 2019 22:20
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GoluboiOgon posted:It seems really odd to me that he thinks of the amish as ethnic minorities. they certainly don't think of themselves as non-white. they may seem technologically backwards now, but even in the 1930s the average us farmer still used horses for farming instead of tractors; when the amish settled in iowa they wouldn't have been seen as inferior technologically. the only time the amish were ever discriminated against was for speaking german during wwi. I think the bolded sentence here is key. In North America we automatically equate ethnicity with race but in other parts of the world the major divides don't necessarily map out in the same way. In other parts of the world language or religion can play the role that race tends to play in North American settler societies. So while we might be inclined to look at the Amish and say "of course they're not a distinct ethnicity, they're white!" that is probably less meaningful to someone from a part of the world where factors other than biological race play a much larger role in shaping social conflicts. I also think that we should probably read his comments as being at least in part a reflection of where the Chinese state was at the time he wrote the book. I get the impression he's doing something that authors have done throughout the ages - describing a foreign society as a covert way of safely critiquing your own country. Instead of describing the failures and successes of Chinese governance - a potentially dangerous activity - perhaps Wang uses his discussion of the successes of the United States to subtly make the case for or against reforms within China. It sort of seems like the book is less interested in getting the exact details of the Amish example correct and more focused on using them as a prop in an argument that the author is making about how sometimes the government trying to control every aspect of a situation makes the government itself more vulnerable.
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Dec 2, 2019 22:31
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I would kill to have an actual English copy of this for my bookshelf, though. It's illuminating and I'm glad Kangxi is putting in the effort to do it for us.
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Dec 3, 2019 00:44
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Helsing posted:I also think that we should probably read his comments as being at least in part a reflection of where the Chinese state was at the time he wrote the book. I get the impression he's doing something that authors have done throughout the ages - describing a foreign society as a covert way of safely critiquing your own country. Instead of describing the failures and successes of Chinese governance - a potentially dangerous activity - perhaps Wang uses his discussion of the successes of the United States to subtly make the case for or against reforms within China. It sort of seems like the book is less interested in getting the exact details of the Amish example correct and more focused on using them as a prop in an argument that the author is making about how sometimes the government trying to control every aspect of a situation makes the government itself more vulnerable. That ties into a point I was going to make about the Amana Colonies. In the late 1970s and early 1980s, the party faced 'three belief crises' 三信危机, as a writer put it and I can't remember off hand who it was. That meant a crisis of faith in Marxism-Leninism, a loss of confidence in Marxism and modernization, and a loss of trust in the Chinese Communist Party. All this came about after the violence and turmoil of the Cultural Revolution. After all that, which left the country divided, with weak institutions and a loss of party authority, massive physical destruction, and little else to show for it, there was a feeling of doubt about how the CCP was going to survive, much less come up with a version of the future that would motivate people like it had before. This is probably why he's visiting Amana - this experiment collapsed completely. What lesson did he draw from it? He says it's a loss of faith and an inability to provide. Kangxi fucked around with this message at 01:25 on Dec 3, 2019 |
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Dec 3, 2019 01:22
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Helsing posted:This is a fascinating criticism of China but is it an accurate read on the Amish? I think Wang overstates the case. The Amish might not drive cars but plenty of them use modern tractors. I think there are also more institutionalized vectors for engagement with the outside world than this author admits - the Amish are a lot more influenced by and integrated into modern society than they might seem to be at first blush. That having been said, I don't think any of this undermines his overall point about hands-off management of different social groups being a potentially more effective way of buying social peace. Well and there are whole systems the pop up around doing things for the Amish, that the Amish won't do. An example is "haulin Amish" they don't drive, but they will ride. Some of them work in factories and have off farm jobs. My grandfather earned a living driving the Amish around in rural Ohio. Think like a combination of a carpool / taxi. Also your point about Rumspringa is a good one, but what most people don't realize is that it also produces a certain amount of tension with the exterior community.
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Dec 3, 2019 04:29
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Chapter 1: An Imbalanced Land Part 7: Native Landscapes quote:In an average person's whirlwind tour, they get the impression of flourishing big cities, row upon row of skyscrapers, lightning-fast cars, glitzy shopping centers, and diverse crowds. America's prosperity is mainly embodied in its cities and great cities, and it would be easy to equate these impressions with all of America. In fact, America is not just its cities. They play an influential role, but they are not equal to the entire country. Some context: According to the US Census, about 79% of the population of the United States, or about 197.5 million out of 250.1 million people, lived in urban areas in 1990. The rapid urbanization of China has been a major component of its economic transformation, but it still had a long way to go by 1990. According to their National Bureau of Statistics, only some 26.4% of the population lived in cities by 1990. This meant that out of a population of 1.135 billion, some 295 million lived in cities, while almost 840 million lived in rural areas. The urban-rural difference in China was vast by the end of the 1970s; while there was little economic inequality between urban residents and between rural residents, the gap between urban and rural residents was so vast that some researchers have estimated that the country was more unequal than any of the countries in the Warsaw Pact and almost as unequal as the United Kingdom. Wang takes note of the differences in quality of life between urban and rural areas, noting this may have driven rural residents to the cities. This could potentially be explained by the modernization of agriculture, which does not require as many laborers to produce the same or greater output than before. In fact, he claims, the US is the world's largest food importer. He notes that in some states you could take long train rides and never see a farm, whereas driving in farm states means you can travel for hours and see almost continuous farms. Food production and food security are still issues, given China's enormous population, and less arable land than the United States. This link from the China Power Project, a part of the Center for Strategic and International Studies, presents some of the more salient statistics and has a useful reading list. As for food imports, China is now the world's largest importer of vegetables, although I would need to find more specific data on food products and other agricultural commodities. In more current news, there's been a rather nasty outbreak of swine flu in China recently that has dramatically reduced the pig population and driven up prices of pork. According to the World organization of Animal Health, nearly half of the country's pig population has died of the disease or has been slaughtered by farmers - approximately 300,000,000 pigs. After this, he lists some impressions of American farmland: -The United States has a large area that is uniquely suited to farming, with flat areas and dark fertile soil, which has not been exhausted of nutrients or eroded. -Rural areas are sparsely populated by his standards. Houses are sparse and far apart, and wild animals like deer roam free. -Towns and villages in rural areas, while more conservative culturally and psychologically, still have a wide degree of goods available. Many roads are set in straight lines, but not all roads are paved. -Some rural houses are in bad condition and have been abandoned. Some small towns have been abandoned completely, for unclear reasons. -There are herds of wild animals, but Wang insists he's seen bigger herds in Inner Mongolia. He compares two methods of animal breeding. quote:The situation in rural areas is the counterpart to large and prosperous cities. Compared with some developing and underdeveloped countries, the American countryside is among the most developed. This comparison tells people, in actuality, urban-rural differences inevitably exist in any society, but this difference has different meanings for different societies. For American society, more than 90% of the population lives in cities, and it is difficult for rural areas to pose tensions. Although no good solution has been found to solve this problem, this problem will persist for a long time and will tend to worsen. However, the rural issue can't set off big waves temporarily or under certain conditions. But for Chinese society, more than 80% of the population is in rural areas, and its political and social significance is very different. Excuse my lack of informed commentary. Rural areas are not my specialty, but a lot of people have made their careers studying Chinese agriculture and rural areas, and I could point you to them, in Chinese or English... Kangxi fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Dec 5, 2019 |
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Dec 5, 2019 23:17
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Is it uncommon to see wildlife in rural China? I could understand, if so, but the idea seems strange to me.
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Dec 9, 2019 22:38
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I mean, Wang is from Shanghai, so it's possible he doesn't spend as much time in the countryside at all. I know there are many deer species on the mainland as well as Taiwan, but I had the impression many would live in Inner Mongolia or more sparsely populated regions.
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Dec 11, 2019 23:37
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My guess is that the American rural population is spread out more, so an individual homeowner has more land and more space, and wildlife such as deer travels through that in a mix. People often have deer feeders in their yards and so forth. Whereas rural China (note I know squat about rural China) has denser villages surrounded by nothingness. A friend in China was telling me about how his grandfather (I think) grew up in what was basically a remote village in the mountains and hunted. Don't remember all the details, but he served in the army in the early stages of the Tibet invasion and occupation back in the 1950s or 1960s. The army let him keep his rifle and ammo after his military service was completed, for hunting purposes, with the idea that he'd hand the rifle back when he was done shooting off all the ammo.
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Dec 11, 2019 23:46
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There are still rural populations that hunt with firearms. There are even places that aren't connected to the rest of the country by roads, power lines, water, etc. that still dress in Qing era Hanfu, at least according to my family.
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Dec 12, 2019 00:06
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Please excuse the delay; I've had a lot on my plate recently. Chapter 1: An Imbalanced Land Part 8: The Decline of the Farm quote:Farms have always interested me. The simplest reason is that the United States has only about three or four percent of the agricultural population, but in addition to ensuring the consumption of 200 million people, there is still a large quantity of exports. I remember the Soviet Union imported a large amount of American food. In many countries, the urban and rural population is smaller than the former, but they are incapable of self-sufficiency. Solving this problem is the key to a country's modernization. China has a population of almost 1.1 billion and more than 80% are in rural areas, but the supply of grain and various non-staple foods is not so generous. By the late 1970s and 1980s, the United States was a substantial supplier of grain to the Soviet Union owing to the latter's shortfalls in production; there was a scandal in the Nixon administration where the Soviets had purchased so much grain at subsidized prices and spent all of their available credit on purchases that the United States soon experienced a spike in prices; this was known as the Great grain robbery. In the late 1970s, the Carter administration had announced an embargo on Soviet purchases of wheat after the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. In response, the Soviets were forced to purchase their grain from other sources such as Argentina. quote:The problem of food has plagued humanity for countless years, and it has been around since the beginning of humanity. So far humans have not solved this problem. The food shortage in Africa has reached alarming levels, and how many people are menaced with death from starvation. In the 1980s, there were famine conditions in Uganda, Mozambique, Ethiopia, and Sudan. In the late 1970s, closer to China, Bangladesh and Cambodia also experienced famine. Some of these famines were exacerbated by ongoing civil war, as is the case in Yemen. quote:I remember "The Winds of War" once recalled that in Berlin just after the end of the Second World War, because there was no food, young girls had to use their bodies to get food. The persistence of human life is a basic human need. When this problem is so difficult, it is difficult to talk about dignity and authority. Wang is probably referring to Herman Wouk's "The Winds of War", a best-selling novel of the period. A TV adaptation was produced in the late 1980s; both were translated into Chinese. quote:The farm I visited is one of many farms and it is a model farm. The farm owner's family has only two people, himself and his wife. After his son went away to college, he worked in another state. In a large expanse of wilderness, they have a very beautiful house, which is almost the same as the house seen in the city. There are all kinds of modern equipment in the city, such as telephone, electricity, running water, etc. Extremely large family-owned farms still contribute a share of US agriculture output; the USDA reports that some 90% of all US farms were 'small family operations', with <$350,000 in annual gross cash farm income (GCFI); but they only accounted for 24% of the value of production. Large-scale family farms with $1 million+ in GCFI contributed to 42% of total farm production. quote:Let's look at some specific information to understand the differences between American agriculture. This farmer is called Oberman. He introduced to me that he has a total of 800 acres of land, which is equivalent to 4,857 mu. He was responsible for the cultivation himself, and he hired a long-time worker, plus his elderly father sometimes helped. Labor productivity is high. In addition to cultivating his 800 acres of land, he also raises pigs, and the numbers given are frightening: he raises 1,200 pigs by himself. This is the number in pens plus a yield of 2,400 pigs each year. In addition to these, he is also a director of an agricultural bank, and he also manages bank affairs during the off-season. In addition, we must deal with social activities and develop plans to promote social development. It is very obvious how much energy he exerts. Heilongjiang province is known as one of the 'grain baskets' of modern China today, with a large output though hindered by a largely subarctic climate. quote:A mechanical harvester can cultivate 80 acres a day, so 800 acres is not difficult for him. He mainly grows corn and soybeans. After harvesting, there is artificial air-drying equipment with a high degree of automation. In addition, the American farm is a large plain, which is unique to the United States' geography. Large machinery opens without barriers. With these conditions, mechanization is easy to implement. In the rural areas of Zhejiang, China, there are too many ditches, rivers, and hills, and large machinery is difficult to use. Zhejiang province, just south of Shanghai, is one of the wealthiest in China today; it exports textiles, chemicals, and is a major electronics manufacturer. Alibaba is headquartered in the provincial capital of Hangzhou. quote:Of course, farmers also have various difficulties, which is a challenge for agriculture. One is the economic problem. The economic income of the farmer is not high, and there is a lot of labor. The farm earns between $20,000 and $30,000 a year, but a combine bought on loan is worth $120,000, regardless of other equipment. Of course, some farms are larger, better, and have a considerable income. This year, the United States is generally dry, and farmers' incomes have dropped. With only about half of their usual income, the economic situation is very bad. We see in farmland that corn grows only half the height as usual, and the fruit is small. Using an inflation calculator, this converts to about $43,000-$65,000, with the combine costing about $260,000. quote:The second is high labor intensity. The labor intensity of the farmer is very high, which is incomparable to a city office or air-conditioned factory. Farmland is mainly field operations. In any case, the changes in nature cannot be avoided. Pig farming can be said to be dirty and smelly. Although this farm has a high degree of automation, it is grungy and cannot be ruled out. Pigs don't know how to clean, there is no way. We went to visit the pigpen, which was foul and makes one want to leave. But the farmer must do the work. He said that after working every day, he had to take several baths to wash off the smell. In the United States, I am afraid that few people can accept it. That's Chapter 1.
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Dec 28, 2019 03:24
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This is a fascinating read! "The changes in nature cannot be avoided" is a pretty good turn of phrase for the things a farmer has to take care of without machines. Was migrant work a huge factor in American farming at the time? Is that going to be brought up in a later chapter?
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Dec 29, 2019 01:43
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Glazius posted:This is a fascinating read! he mentions a 'long-time worker'. plus, he doesn't need to spend that much time farming with all the tractors, + his wife, + his father, + his kid (who definitely did pig related chores for 12+ years). as i understand it, migrant labor on farms is usually for crops that need to be picked by hand like fruits and vegetables. you don't need that much in the way of hand labor for corn and soybeans if you have modern tools, which this farmer clearly does.
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Dec 29, 2019 04:04
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This continues to be a really interesting read, thanks again for the thread Kangxi! And no worries about delays, it happens, especially this time of year.
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Dec 30, 2019 03:10
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Thanks for all the comments! I will have more delays again, but the least I can do is translate the Table of Contents so you all have some idea of what will happen next. Given how compacted my schedule will be over the coming months, I may just ask you all to pick which ones you'd prefer to have translated. Chapter 1: An Unequal Land Chapter 1, Part 1- Doubt, Made in America Chapter 1, Part 2 - Manhattan and Chinatown Chapter 1, Part 3 - The Four Cs Chapter 1, Part 4 - The Heights of Commodification Chapter 1, Part 5 - Frontiers Chapter 1, Part 6 - The Amana Colonies Chapter 1, Part 7 - Native Landscapes Chapter 2: An Ancient Political Spirit Chapter 2, Part 1 - The American Mind Chapter 2, Part 2 - The Mayflower Chapter 2, Part 3 - Political Creed Chapter 2, Part 4 - Equality or Freedom? Chapter 2, Part 5 - A Constitution of Two Centuries Chapter 2, Part 6 - Political Genes Chapter 2, Part 7 - Political Standards Chapter 2, Part 8 - "The Third Republic" Chapter 3: A Colorful National Character Chapter 3, Part 1 - Internationals Chapter 3, Part 2 - Unconventional Displays Chapter 3, Part 3 - Demystification Chapter 3, Part 4 - Sacralization Chapter 3, Part 5 - A Misleading Space Shuttle Chapter 3, Part 6 - The "Work Ethic" Chapter 3, Part 7 - Sexual Liberation Chapter 3, Part 8 - Lonely Spirits Chapter 3, Part 9 - Future World Chapter 3, Part 10 - People are always People Chapter 4: Multileveled Societal Control Chapter 4, Part 1: The Invisible Hand Chapter 4, Part 2: Money-Managed Society Chapter 4, Part 3: Human Standardization Chapter 4, Part 4: Legal Culture Chapter 4, Part 5: Taxation System Chapter 4, Part 6: Scientific Administrators Chapter 4, Part 7: Cats and Dogs are not Free Chapter 5: Interwoven Political Power Chapter 5, Part 1: Rule of Donkey and Elephant Chapter 5, Part 2: Parties Share the Spoils Chapter 5, Part 3: Interest Groups Chapter 5, Part 4: Lobbyists Chapter 5, Part 5: Radical Organizations Chapter 5, Part 6: Pluralism or Meritocracy? Chapter 5, Part 7: Participative Democracy Chapter 6: Incomplete Elections Chapter 6, Part 1: Battle for the White House Chapter 6, Part 2: Road to the Presidency Chapter 6, Part 3: A Tri-County Democratic Party Luncheon Chapter 6, Part 4: TV Debate Chapter 6, Part 5: A Representative's Dream Chapter 6, Part 6: Election Day Chapter 6, Part 7: Who rises and falls? Chapter 7: Political Pyramid Chapter 7, Part 1: Capitol Hill Chapter 7, Part 2: Fifty States Chapter 7, Part 3: County Politics Chapter 7, Part 4: Politics in the Cities Chapter 7, Part 5: Grassroots Politics Chapter 7, Part 6: Transparency Chapter 7, Part 7: Selection of Officials Chapter 7, Part 8: Contacting Representatives Chapter 8: Soft Governance Chapter 8, Part 1: Drivers Licenses Chapter 8, Part 2: Factory Principles Chapter 8, Part 3: A Company is Not a Democracy Chapter 8, Part 4: Human Services Chapter 8, Part 5: Coca-Cola Headquarters Chapter 8, Part 6: God on Earth Chapter 9: Reproducing the System Chapter 9, Part 1: The Educational System Chapter 9, Part 2: MIT Chapter 9, Part 3: The Kennedy School of Government Chapter 9, Part 4: Talent Factories Chapter 9, Part 5: The US Naval Academy Chapter 9, Part 6: Educational Exports Chapter 9, Part 7: A Furnace of Technology Chapter 10: Active Intelligence Chapter 10, Part 1: 'Knowledge Factories' Chapter 10, Part 2: The Brookings Institute Chapter 10, Part 3: The Carter Center Chapter 10, Part 4: The Secretary of Defense's Talk Chapter 10, Part 5: Regional Affairs Centers Chapter 10, Part 6: Think Tanks Chapter 10, Part 7: City Libraries Chapter 11: Hidden Crises Chapter 11, Part 1: Family Values Chapter 11, Part 2: An Ignorant Generation? Chapter 11, Part 3: Wandering Youths Chapter 11, Part 4: America has its own Poisons Chapter 11, Part 5: Criminal Underworld Chapter 11, Part 6: A Beggar Nation Chapter 11, Part 7: Black Crisis Chapter 11, Part 8: The Natives' Situation Chapter 11, Part 9: A Mental Crisis Chapter 11, Part 10: Empire of the Sun
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Dec 31, 2019 17:36
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How is the translating going? I will probably stop by 前流书店 when I'm in beijing to pick up some CCP classics on the way back next week.
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Jan 14, 2020 01:17
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Chapter 2, Part 8 - "The Third Republic" Chapter 5, Part 7: Participative Democracy
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Jan 14, 2020 07:49
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I'm happy to just continue in order.
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Jan 14, 2020 09:18
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Elyv posted:I'm happy to just continue in order. This is also fine.
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Jan 14, 2020 09:25
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I'd continue in order but "Active Intelligence" would be my no. 1, "Hidden Crises" as no. 2 They're also the last two chapters so we could save the best for last
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Jan 14, 2020 19:44
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I do apologize for the delays. I've had notes for Chapter 2 Part 1 sitting on my desktop. I've had a lot of responsibilities pile up over the past few weeks, and I've had barely any time for anything else. I can try to start up again this month?
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Jan 14, 2020 21:50
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NEVER MIND I HAVE A COMPLETE PART OF A CHAPTER 2 ALREADY Chapter 2: An Ancient Political System Part 1: The American Mind Now we're not talking about farms anymore I can get back to more substantial commentary. Wang is using the word 精神 in the title of this chapter, and it means a lot depending on the context. It can refer to spirits, essence, consciousness, the human mind. It's used to translate the word spirit, and it's sometimes a part of more medical terms, like 'psychiatry' 精神科 or 'schizophrenia' 精神分裂症. And before I looked up the book title Wang is referring to, I thought it would be 'the spirit of America'. I'll explain why I'm going on about all this by the end of the chapter. quote:H.S. Commager is an eminent historian and critic. The shelves in American university libraries have copies of his work, and he is considered a master of American studies. His book, "The Growth of the American Republic", has an important status in Chinese academic circles. "The American Mind" was published in 1950, and it was warmly received on publication. I have seen a Chinese edition translated by Nan Mu, et al. It is a long distance from the United States to Shanghai, and this book is indeed a must-have for understanding the spirit of the United States.  Henry Steele Commager (1902-1998) was indeed an eminent American historian. He taught at NYU, Columbia, and Amherst, and he wrote multiple textbooks, collections of essays, and collections of primary source documents for use in high schools and colleges. He was the Ph.D. advisor for several major historians such as Leonard Levy, who was notable for more sharper criticisms of Thomas Jefferson on freedom of speech, and William Leuchtenberg, who is a major scholar of Franklin D. Roosevelt. He was a standard-bearer for mid-century liberalism and was a prominent critic of McCarthyism, the overreach of executive power in the Johnson, Nixon, and Reagan administrations, and was an opponent of the Vietnam War and the CIA's classified budget on constitutional grounds. His earliest books were curiously sparse on the topic of Reconstruction, and he was said to be pessimistic about civil rights advancing through the Supreme Court. However, he was said to have fought for John Hope Franklin to present papers at the American Historical Association. quote:Commager's writings are experienced and careful, he puts pen to paper with force, he observes problems deeply, he is adept at summing things up. Commager recounts that he is not going to write a history book, but an explanation. He struggles to discover the "American spirit", a uniquely American way of thinking, character, and behavior. He chose the period from the 1880s to the 1940s as a watershed in American history and thought. "The American Mind" is a dense book, with some 500,000 characters, and one marvels. The American Mind was probably Commager's most famous book. The first edition was published in 1950, though it would be republished several times as late as the early 1980s. From my brief skimming, it's an exceptionally broad intellectual history of late 19th century and early 20th-century progressivism, law, political theory, literature, economics, and architecture. But underlying the whole thing is a broad sketch of 'American character', and reveals the author's convictions of American exceptionalism, and how the past can serve as an inspiration for the present -- his present, that is. Most of all, he is an exponent of the philosophical school of pragmatism. quote:What does Commager think comprises the "the spirit of America"? The first premise is that Americans have their own nature and their own philosophy. The American character is the product of the interaction between inheritance and the environment. The origins of American culture and institutions go back to ancient Greece, Rome, and Palestine, such as church and family systems and values. However, Commager believes that this inheritance is highly selective, shaped by environments and choices. The political system and judicial system have changed little in the past two hundred years, but social organizations have undergone dramatic changes, and psychological changes have undergone revolutionary changes. The American environment has melted down the differences between people of different kinds and cultural backgrounds who came here. I'm surprised to see Wang, a Marxist political scientist, praise an American liberal historian and before I read the rest, I tried to figure out his angle here. Is it his interest in nationalism vs. localism? His broad reach in historical references and subjects covered? Commager's political activism...? A very funny typo from the online text: 于是 (as a result; then) was replaced by 浴室 (bathroom). quote:What does Commager think are the main characteristics of the American spirit? I have outlined the following: [i]From Wang's summary, he really hit upon Commager's fondness for pragmatism and American exceptionalism. quote:And so on. Commager's conclusion is that these beliefs cannot but have practical consequences and must be reflected in the daily behavior of the American people. The chapter in which Commager summarized these features was titled "19th Century Americans." In fact, some conclusions still apply today. Naturally, for any abstraction of real life, one can cite examples for and against. There are quite a few examples that can be used to refute Commager. In any case, as an American scholar, let us listen for the time being. Commager does have his merits but inevitably he blows his own horn. In fact, the American nation has many shortcomings. [i]The 'absolute spirit', or to use Wang's translation, 绝对精神, is from Hegel.
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Jan 14, 2020 23:16
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Kangxi posted:I do apologize for the delays. I've had notes for Chapter 2 Part 1 sitting on my desktop. Wang seems much more positive towards America in these early chapters. But the titles of the later chapters seem more critical.
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Jan 15, 2020 21:07
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He absolutely is more critical of the US in later chapters, especially in chapters on the election. But he finds some things worth imitating, and he's willing to say so. The very next section has some ideas which I might throw out a wild guess were implemented at his suggestion but without any primary sources, I have no idea if this is his doing.
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Jan 15, 2020 23:44
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Fleetwood posted:Is it uncommon to see wildlife in rural China? I could understand, if so, but the idea seems strange to me. I was in relatively rural China a few years ago, and it was striking how little wildlife we saw. Even birds were almost completely absent. We were on trails several miles outside the Chinese tourist town of Yangshou.
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Jan 16, 2020 23:14
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:No sweat. It's fine if the thread is a slow burn over a long period. I'll certainly be reading it. I'm sure others will as well. Yes, definitely! I only registered my account to follow this thread and I'm very sure I'll be following it until we get to the end of the book. Also I am really looking forward to the chapter about American politics! It's so interesting and it's such a great job you're doing here, Kangxi. Thank you.
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Jan 23, 2020 12:37
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Have you considered reposting this off-site for a wider audience?
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Jan 23, 2020 20:29
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Chapter 2: An Ancient Political System Part 2: The Mayflower quote:It can be said that Massachusetts is a state of political and historical interest. American historical sites, while they are not so old, are still crucial in explaining political and historical developments. Europeans often mock the United States' lack of history, but this in fact reveals a worthwhile question. The modern society of the United States has only two hundred years of history, so why has it developed into the world's first-class power? This is an important phenomenon in today's society. "Material textbook" is my translation of 实物教科书. quote:According to these material textbooks, American people are well-versed in such affairs. It is often suspected that there is no 'political education' in American society. But a traditional spirit is deeply rooted. Here, "material textbooks" play many roles. Places such as libraries set up after the end of presidential administrations are also material textbooks. I won't go into detail about what is or isn't 'political education' in the US today, but in the PRC, there is coursework in schools up through the college level. Undergrads still take mandatory courses on politics, 'situations and policies', and basic theoretical Marxism. A short period of mandatory military training in colleges was also introduced in 1984. quote:The first chapters of the material textbook were in Massachusetts. The Mayflower sent the earliest European settlers to the continent in 1620. This is said to be the beginning of modern America. The "Mayflower" is a large wooden sailing vessel. An imitation is on display, but it is said to be very similar to the original. Everything on the ship is still the same, and some people dressed in the clothes of the time receive the passengers.  The Mayflower II is currently undergoing a long restoration, but will be seaworthy and sent back to Plymouth by 2020, in time for the 400th anniversary of the landings.  Plymouth Rock broke in 1774 after somebody tried to move it to the Plymouth Town Square. It's been chipped at for souvenirs over the years. Parts are in various museums across the country, but a segment, only a portion of the size of the original, is at sea level and under a large granite monument. quote:Americans generally trace the spirit of America to the Mayflower and believe that the basic principles of American society were established when the Mayflower sailed to the mainland. The sixty people on board established society's foundations. This explanation may make sense, but it must not be overstated. One thing is more certain, when people went from Europe to the Americas they were for the most part religiously persecuted or politically sidelined. In 1620, this was the period when the autocracy of the British Stuart dynasty reached its peak, and a British bourgeois revolution broke out in the next two decades. He is, of course, referring to the English Civil War, although I wonder if he is conflating the idea of increased parliamentary power with the Glorious Revolution of 1688. quote:It can be seen who was willing to leave Europe and Britain at that time, and what kind of state of mind they were. They came to this desolate place to be rid of autocracy, escape persecution, and find freedom and wealth. This spirit encouraged them to come to the New World. They arrived at a vast mound of earth without a complete political order, so they could fulfill their wishes. If they come to a place where a complete political system has long been established, these dozens of people can only accept reality no matter how they turn their ideas into action. As many immigrants from all over the world come to the United States today, no one can change the system here. The spirit of the "Mayflower" can grow and develop precisely because this land is politically barren. "Civilized" 文明 and "Indians" 印第安人 are his words. I blanch when I see somebody in 1989 write so bluntly but there is a cold logic to his thinking. If he was a doctrinaire Marxist and historical materialist, he would say that modes of production are the determinant of all other factors of society -- hence a society with more advanced means of production being able to displace a different society so quickly. quote:This leads to the well-known argument put forth by my academic advisor, Dr. Chen Qiren on the difference between agricultural colonies and slave colonies. The former refers to the United States, Australia, and New Zealand; and the second type refers to many African countries, India, Indochina, and so on. I had a lot of trouble with this one so I'm posting the original text below: 这就是我在研究生期间的导师陈其人教授提出的著名论点。移民垦殖的殖民地和奴役土著的殖民地的差别。移民垦殖指宗主国的一部分居民移民到一块土地上，进行劳作，如美国、新西兰、澳大利亚等。奴役土著指的是一小部分宗主国的统者统治殖民地当地的人民，如非洲许多国家、印度、印度支那等地。这两种不同类型的殖民地形成了完全不同的政治解度二十世纪的历史指明了这一点。奴役土著有一个前提：土著能否被奴役？亚洲社会在殖民者来到之前，已经发展到相当的水平，为欧洲殖民者的奴役提供了条件。美国人在新大陆没有这样有利的条件。印第安人很久一直被视为野人，文明人只奴役文明人，而不太愿意奴役他们认为的“野兽”。 Chen Qiren (1924-2017) was a professor of social science at Fudan University, with a focus on Marxist economic theory. He was primarily known for his work on the role of corporations in American politics, although he wrote on such topics as the development of 'bourgeois economics' and colonialism. For a more detailed example of Chen's writing, see David Shambaugh's "Beautiful Imperialist", which provides a summary of Chinese policymakers' and intellectuals' views on the United States. quote:The spirit of the "Mayflower" survived, not because anyone intended to maintain it, but that social life must be controlled by it. I also looked at the Plymouth Plantation, where a seventeenth-century settlement was preserved, and it is said that the earliest immigrants lived here. This village is close to the sea, looking far into the distance, thousands of miles. The wooden houses and various appliances in the village are typical of old rural villages. It can be described in two words - "poor" and "backward". This is natural. European immigrants came from afar, had nothing, and started from scratch, only in this environment. Villages like this are as numerous as an ox has hairs in the world today, so what do they mean? He is referring to the failure of the German Revolutions of 1848-1849. The explanation here makes me think of 'path dependency' in economics or other social sciences but he has no citations. quote:The United States values the preservation and protection of these material textbooks. In these places, there are full-time personnel to manage and provide the convenient measures needed for public visits, such as parking, shops, restaurants, and various instructions. The facilities of the exhibition are also standardized, and there are studios in almost every place, and visitors can see specially produced films and slides. Some things that are not considered to be Chinese by the Chinese are carefully protected. So, Americans will have a history in the future, because it is going all out to protect it. They know that they have no history, and they value treasures that have historical value. In a country with too much history, things that are much more valuable are abandoned. I think Wang got his wish. In 1991, the CCP started a "Patriotic Education Campaign" as part of its education curriculum, which emphasized China's victimization before 1949. The campaign formally started with two documents titled "Notice about Conducting Education of Patriotism and Revolutionary Tradition by Exploiting Extensively Cultural Relics’’ and ‘‘General Outline on Strengthening Education on Chinese Modern and Contemporary History and National Conditions.", and notably credited from an internal document sent from then Chairman Jiang Zemin to the Secretary of Education. In 1994, the CCP would issue an "Outline on Implementing Patriotic Education", which reads, in part: "The objectives of conducting patriotic education campaign are to boost the nation’s spirit, enhance cohesion, foster national self-esteem and pride, consolidate and develop a patriotic united front to the broadest extent possible, and direct and rally the masses’ patriotic passions to the great cause of building socialism with Chinese characteristics." (the Translation is not mine, that is from Prof. Zheng Wang's National Humiliation, History Education, and the Politics of Historical Memory: Patriotic Education Campaign in China. International Studies Quarterly (2008) 52, 783–806.) As a result, the historical curriculum changed from having primarily a Marxist element, which emphasized class struggle, to a narrative more focused on nationalism and patriotism. Various figures were rehabilitated or cast in a different light. The CCP also designated about a hundred different sites across China as "patriotic education bases", and about 2/3rds of these were from past wars or battle sites, such as those from the Civil War, the second Sino-Japanese War, and many from the imperial era. At various times, the Central Committee and State Council have encouraged periods of "red tourism" to visit these battle sites, historical museums, and other similar locations.
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Jan 23, 2020 22:00
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plvlry posted:Yes, definitely! I only registered my account to follow this thread and I'm very sure I'll be following it until we get to the end of the book. Also I am really looking forward to the chapter about American politics! Thank you. That means a lot. just another posted:Have you considered reposting this off-site for a wider audience? I've been considering setting up a Wordpress or something similar for my incidental writing and to archive some other things I've made. TibetLP is a fun side product of mine, but that might have to sit cheek-by-jowl with more serious work I'm doing.
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Jan 23, 2020 22:19
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Of course America had a history before Plymouth Rock. We just threw it out because it wasn't a "civilized" history. Coming in right after its apocalypse didn't help. China didn't get that option, but seeing a perspective on American patriotism from the outside is a real eye-opener.
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Jan 23, 2020 23:55
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Glazius posted:China didn't get that option, but seeing a perspective on American patriotism from the outside is a real eye-opener. As an outsider I'm very curious what parts you experienced as real eye-openers and why.
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Jan 24, 2020 10:22
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Excellent work Kangxi!Orange Devil posted:As an outsider I'm very curious what parts you experienced as real eye-openers and why. I assume he means how a lot of these sites are carefully manufactured to present a specific historical ideal to visitors, something you don't think about as an American like, ever.
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Jan 24, 2020 13:34
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Grapplejack posted:I assume he means how a lot of these sites are carefully manufactured to present a specific historical ideal to visitors, something you don't think about as an American like, ever. Right. I got my "American history" in bits and pieces through my actual history, from formal schooling and casual interest, from a lot of perspectives. I can't turn all of that off to look at just the manufactured ideal, so it's interesting to read a thoughtful analysis from someone who takes that ideal as their primary experience.
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Jan 24, 2020 15:17
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Glazius posted:Coming in right after its apocalypse didn't help. I think this is the biggest thing missing from his analysis. They had been wiped out by diseases. I’m not sure that was widely under stood at the time this book was written though.
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Jan 24, 2020 16:30
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Chapter 2: An Ancient Political System Part 3: A Political Creed quote:One of the main reasons why Europeans to look down on Americans is that Europeans think that Americans have no long cultural traditions and no great figures. They are like a group of “hillbillies” who got rich quick in the domain of politics. This view is reflected in Europeans' belief that Americans do not have a rich legacy of political justice. Europe contributed to Aristotle, Plato, Hobbes, Montesquieu, Locke, Rousseau, Mill, Hegel and other ideas. An important aspect of their achievements is that they have provided a wonderful account of human political life. Many of the basic tenets of today's European and even Western politics are derived from these ideas. American political thought is not so developed. The United States has only two hundred years of history. The American veterans chose the ideology that already exists in Europe, and they did not make many new contributions. American political scholars are also blunt on the matter.  Samuel P. Huntington (1927-2008) was a Harvard-trained political scientist who obtained his Ph.D. at age 23 and began teaching at Harvard almost immediately after. His first major book was "The Soldier and the State: The Theory and Politics of Civil-Military Relations", published in 1957. He was denied tenure there and moved to Columbia in 1959, where he became friends with another new hire, Zbigniew Brzezinski. In 1977, he was invited by Brzezinski to serve on the staff of the National Security Council during the Carter administration, which he did until the end of 1978. His major works include "Political Order in Changing Societies", which was a critique of W. W. Rostow's developmental theory, suggesting that as societies 'modernize' and grow more complex, they may grow more violent without institutional developments to keep that violence in check. In 1991, he wrote "The Third Wave", which chronicled the waves of democratization among authoritarian states since the mid-1970s, starting with the Carnation Revolution in Portugal and continuing through to ex-Warsaw Pact states, the 'East Asian Tigers', and some states in sub-Saharan Africa. More controversially, he wrote a Foreign Affairs article called "The Clash of Civilizations?" which cast doubt on the "end of history" thesis of Francis Fukuyama and said that further violence in world history would likely be between "Western" civilization and Islam. His thesis has provoked much controversy in the years ahead among academics and policymakers, although his ideas found a kind of cachet after the events of September 11, 2001. His advisory role to the apartheid government in South Africa has also led to criticism. quote:According to Huntington, "American Creed" has been formed since the time of the War of Independence. From the end of the eighteenth century to the beginning of the nineteenth century, the United States has formed some fundamental political values. This is the American creed. The core content of the American Creed came from the thinkers of the European bourgeois revolution, but it also has a more ancient origin, which can be traced back to ancient Greece. These creeds not only exist but are accepted by most members of society. These creeds have evolved one way or another over the course of two hundred years, but their core has remained the same. These creeds form part of the "self" of the American nation. Many people in society are not promoting these creeds all day, but people are practicing them. Universities, courts, governments, and the mass media are spreading these tenets. To some extent, these creeds dominate society. One of the main topics of the Dukakis and Bush campaigns was to discuss what is the mainstream of the United States and who has left the mainstream of the United States. Neither side is willing to leave the mainstream of the United States or they will lose their votes. I don't have Huntington's book so I don't know if this is his argument or Wang Huning's. quote:One hundred and forty years ago, French historian Alexis de Tocqueville said that Americans generally believe that people are the source of power. People respect freedom and equality, most citizens have political power and so on. These are the elements of the American Creed. James Bryce's summary is: (1) the individual has sacred power; (2) the source of power lies in the people; (3) all governments are restricted by laws and people; (4) local governments take precedence over the federal government; (5) Most people are wiser than a few; (6) The smallest government is the best government, and these beliefs can explain the left and right. In general, Americans don't feel the need for explanations, and everyone thinks they know the true story. However, in times of crisis, people will interpret these tenets differently.  Alexis de Tocqueville, of course, was a classical liberal, political scientist, and historian. His Democracy in America is one of the most commonly assigned texts to young undergraduate students in political science.  James Bryce, 1st Viscount Bryce, was a historian, political scientist, and British Ambassador to the United States from 1907-1913. He was known for his three-volume work, The American Commonwealth, which followed the journeys of Tocqueville. He believed the United States to be much more unequal than Tocqueville had described, yet he held some optimism for the future of the United States, noting its extreme economic growth and high standards of living compared to European countries. He might also be termed a 'Whig historian'. quote:Huntington believes that this happened in four periods: the revolutionary period, the Jefferson period, the Civil War, and the unrest in the 1960s. What happened during these periods were mainly general dissatisfaction, political ideology played an important role in the debate, political turmoil, strong anti-regime sentiment, an intensified mentality for change, and expanded political participation. The more important reason is that actual politics did not realize these creeds, potential conflicts continued to accumulate and finally erupted like a volcano, thereby finding new structures. Because most people believe in these creeds, the first thing that people think of at the outbreak is to better embody them, rather than change them. The society has been realizing the same creed, and society is constantly changing its beliefs. The continuity of its social development cannot be ignored in its social development.
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Jan 24, 2020 23:32
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i find it interesting that china's red tourism with interactive exhibits might've been influenced by america. they just need a smokey the bear equivalent to tell kids that only they can prevent forest fires https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSJ8AGG_VRE not that anyone asked but the "joke" of my avatar and username is also about blurring those things together because it just seems instantly funny to me. like a buc-ee's advertising mascot is a nod to my texas roots but it could be read as a criticism of "real-existing socialism" as just a variant of authoritarian capitalism or a critique of the authoritarian structure of american capitalism. i don't really fall neatly on those questions but i like playing with those ideas. https://twitter.com/HunanTimes/status/1103483578334117888 Kangxi posted:Samuel P. Huntington (1927-2008) was a Harvard-trained political scientist who obtained his Ph.D. at age 23 and began teaching at Harvard almost immediately after. His first major book was "The Soldier and the State: The Theory and Politics of Civil-Military Relations", published in 1957. He was denied tenure there and moved to Columbia in 1959, where he became friends with another new hire, Zbigniew Brzezinski. In 1977, he was invited by Brzezinski to serve on the staff of the National Security Council during the Carter administration, which he did until the end of 1978. His major works include "Political Order in Changing Societies", which was a critique of W. W. Rostow's developmental theory, suggesting that as societies 'modernize' and grow more complex, they may grow more violent without institutional developments to keep that violence in check. In 1991, he wrote "The Third Wave", which chronicled the waves of democratization among authoritarian states since the mid-1970s, starting with the Carnation Revolution in Portugal and continuing through to ex-Warsaw Pact states, the 'East Asian Tigers', and some states in sub-Saharan Africa. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 01:19 on Jan 25, 2020 |
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Jan 25, 2020 00:51
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Personally I'm most interested in chapters four and five, since I'd like to see the Chinese interpretation of the American political system. What they think works, what they feel doesn't.
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Jan 28, 2020 01:04
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