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chibi luda
Apr 17, 2013

Casinos are some of the most depressing places I've ever been to. Old people blowing their social security checks. Stressed out middle-aged dudes that look like they just lost their mortgage payment. Drunk bros going apeshit at tables. You'll see all these things within 20 minutes of your first casino visit. With that said, I do some of my best thinking when I plop a 20 into a video roulette machine, have some free beers, and people watch for a few hours as I keep putting quarters on Black/Even.

It is almost the perfect environment for witnessing humans in unnatural situations. There's a casino in the next state over where it has stadium-style seating around a baccarat dealer, and you can place bets on a touch screen. There are always tons of old dudes chain-smoking and writing in a spreadsheet. I have no idea why, considering it's a glorified coin flip.

At this same place, there was once a guy in the bathroom who had a duffle bag full of live eels. I was too taken aback to ask him why.

There's a really lovely one in Philadelphia where I saw a guy punch a video roulette machine and straight-up shatter the screen. Sure, maybe it would make sense if he had lost a huge spin, but I was sitting pretty close and the guy had actually won about $50.

Perhaps the one that made me the saddest was on vacation when I was checking out the boardwalk on Barry Island in Wales. Never seen a setup like this in the US but in the back of all the usual seaside arcades there were full-on real money slot parlors for adults. On a beautiful 85 degree day, there was just this one older man in this windowless room, pumping coins into a slot machine like a zombie.

I am extraordinarily grateful that I don't seem to have that gene that makes people need to chase losses. However, I find casinos to be fascinating environments that engineer human behavior for the singular purpose of getting them to spend money. Share degenerate casino stories ITT.

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chibi luda
Apr 17, 2013

I'd also like to talk about slot theming.

It makes sense why slot machines would use licensed themes; people gravitate toward the familiar, or a property they like outside of the windowless sadness hole. As a result, you get some really weird properties attached to slot machines.

A couple odd ones I've seen (shoutout to the apparently very large community of youtube weirdos who film themselves playing slots)

Ellen Degeneres
https://youtu.be/Rua2Ce3av4k

Avatar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rub2Rm79Elg

Big Bang Theory
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PnMN8H9C2A

Orange Is The New Black
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vINmUoIvw8Q


EDIT: Remember Farmville? It's back, in slot form
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Vavv2FqN8o

chibi luda fucked around with this message at 03:08 on Dec 10, 2019

chibi luda
Apr 17, 2013

foonykins posted:

Buddy of mine threw 500 on the Washington Capitals tonight. It was a sure thing, given the standings!

He's not gonna be happy at work tomorrow.

I throw his bets in for him (He's in NY and we have sports betting in NJ) and occasionally I'll throw 5 bucks on some long 5-team parlay and hit once or twice a year. That's about it for me and gambling. Cocaine is a much more enjoyable waste of money. At least you feel good when you blow it!

This entire state is littered with the god drat sportsbook app advertisements.

I wonder how the NJ online betting is changing the casino landscape. I'm about 10 seconds away from playing slots, sports, table games, anything I want on the Poker Stars app and I'm sure a lot of people stopped making the drive to AC or PA when they realized they can get their dopamine rush at home

chibi luda
Apr 17, 2013

bird with big dick posted:

The Walking Dead slot is one of my favorites. There’s some good Willy Wonka ones too. There’s a new Goonies one that’s pretty cool.

I once won about 80 bucks on the Willy Wonka slot. Treated myself to dinner at the casino steakhouse afterward. Not a bad night.

chibi luda
Apr 17, 2013

BrigadierSensible posted:

I used to work as a croupier at Crown Casino in Melbourne a while back. Strangely I don't have that many stories.

<words>

Holy poo poo.

I have a question: do Australian casinos allow smoking, and if so, how bad was it for you to live with on a daily basis? While it's banned in most establishments in the US, Casinos are mostly exempt here because any time people spend outside for a smoke break is time they aren't giving the house money.

Fun fact: earlier in the decade, the state of New Jersey pumped a ton of money to help build and open the Revel casino on the Atlantic City boardwalk. It was a state of the art facility that had Beyonce play an opening show, lots of hype, the works. One of the big marketing draws was that it was going to be the only casino in AC that banned smoking. It closed about 2 years later.

chibi luda
Apr 17, 2013

If you lived in the Northeast in the 90s you prolly saw this ad all the time on TV

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj61bOvF14A

Song is hella catchy

chibi luda
Apr 17, 2013

Chrs posted:

These are standard throughout UK seaside towns. The really sketchy ones even turn a blind eye to little kids going back there.

Another thing I noticed there is that gambling is presented in this far less glamorous, utilitarian form. Every third store on the high street was a Ladbrokes or a William Hill or some other little gambling parlor that I at first mistook for a bank branch. There was almost no pretending that it was anywhere near high-class entertainment outside of like maybe one or two bigger casinos I saw in Manchester and London.

Like, in the US, even the casinos in kinda depressing places like Northeast Pennsylvania still have to project a "glitzed up" image with chandeliers, comfy leather seats, you name it.

chibi luda
Apr 17, 2013

After watching that Foxwoods commercial YouTube is blowing me up with other old regional ads.

Witness the nuclear vaporwave energy off of this one* :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AjIXRaCPJ8

* Also Trumped!: The Inside Story of the Real Donald Trump—His Cunning Rise and Spectacular Fall is a great book from 1991 if you find the casino business as interesting as I do. In summary, Donnie was a mushbrain even back in the day who refused to listen to even the most basic advice from his underlings.


Gridlocked posted:

Hi I can answer this: Depends on the state and the casino. MOST should have a DOSA (designated outdoor smoking area) and I do know a few used to have smoking rooms for pokies but not any tables or bars maned by staff (Work place health and safety started taking a very dim view of putting staff in places that give them cancer, also so did the staff and the companies when they started getting sued for letting their staff get cancer)

I think most no longer have indoor smoking of any kind. Frankly most BARS don't allow indoor smoking anymore.

Source: myself I have a background in the industry

I wish it was like that here. I quit smoking about 6-7 years back and I don't miss it at all. However, when I'm gambling I'll usually get a pack and just have a couple while I kick back. I enjoy it a lot but I always feel bad for the staff and I might abstain when I go up to a relatively new place upstate later this month.

chibi luda fucked around with this message at 14:16 on Dec 10, 2019

chibi luda
Apr 17, 2013

Ugly In The Morning posted:

Poker and blackjack are the only gambling I do because they’re the only ones where you have any real effect on the outcome. And even then, the house still has the edge in blackjack. I miss living in Brooklyn where I could usually find a poker game in someone’s apartment or a sketchy club, since casinos creep me the hell out.

I've a read a lot about underground NYC clubs and it sounds alluring if not a little scary. I live right across the river so I might see if I can get in on a hold em game at least once just to say I did it.

I love the movie Rounders because it uses the John Wick conceit that literally everyone in New York is a contract killer card shark

chibi luda
Apr 17, 2013

Colonel Cancer posted:

All those Jews would probably die of something sooner or later, right mein fuhrer?

:psyduck:

chibi luda
Apr 17, 2013

There's gotta be at least a couple computer-touching goons that have developed slot machines before. It's pretty astounding how elaborate they've gotten over the years and I'd love to hear about that process.


Behold the absolute avalanche of audiovisual poo poo flying at you in this Simpsons machine

https://youtu.be/t_MEEHFvMLc

chibi luda
Apr 17, 2013

PG-13 SEX DUNGEON posted:

I'll page some friends. Do you know that Fragmaster was in one of the greatest World Series of Poker videos of all time? Your regdate should allow you to appreciate this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffp5rVnpsks

Holy poo poo.

I've been in the process of learning poker for fun. I just learned the rules of hold 'em a week ago and am now working on basic strategies in super micro stakes online games (literally 1 cent blinds). It's a lot of fun and its amazing how quick of an improvement you get when you apply basic things like folding most lovely hands before the flop and keeping limping to a minimum.

Gonna maybe hit up a casino or two with some college buddies over the holidays and try my hand at a cash game for funsies in a few weeks. I'm sure I'll get my rear end handed to me but I am genuinely invested in getting better and I would consider it to be worthwhile if I learned some things.

chibi luda
Apr 17, 2013

foonykins posted:

AC is hurting big time at this point. Worse than post-recession if what I hear from some regulars is true. Some places are trying to pivot a little with more entertainment-focused stuff (case in point the Hard Rock, my ex's father is the treasurer for the theater there) but the fact that it's far from drat near anything makes people not want to bother taking the trip.

Now if they put a casino in the Meadowlands (maybe in that god-awful new mall), then they would have tons of New Yorkers making day trips. But developers in this state don't have any common sense.

I heard the new Hard Rock is nice and getting some decent traffic but yeah I'm not sure why most area residents would go considering how many closer casinos there are in other states.

Hell, even the close ones like Resorts Catskills already had to file for bankruptcy IIRC.

EDIT: Also that mall still doesn't even have stores open lmao it's just the half-assed Nickelodeon theme park. They already had to cut the parking fee because no one is coming. That project has been an albatross for almost as long as I've been alive.

chibi luda fucked around with this message at 16:24 on Dec 10, 2019

chibi luda
Apr 17, 2013

gleebster posted:

I'm not a gambler. Does this actually mean something or did one of us just have a stroke?

Ashamed to say I know exactly what this means

Maybe I do have the degenerate gambling gene gently caress

chibi luda
Apr 17, 2013

Dick Bastardly posted:

I was fired for being high on marijuanas when I worked at one so I think probably casinos hate drugs... now drug money on the other hand....

Would love to hear this story.

Loling at the idea of trying to repeatedly point out my straight flush to a dealer with bloodshot eyes who just looks at me and giggles

chibi luda
Apr 17, 2013

Blistex posted:

Last year my wife had a conference that was taking place at one of the conference rooms at the local casino in Calgary. I decided to blow a $20 in there and was surprised that none of the traditional slot machines existed anymore. There were not Cherries or Lemons, or Bars running around the drum, but instead it was all electronic cards with Chinese characters and absolutely (to me at least) no rhyme or reason to the games.

Every casino I've ever been to has tons of Asian gamblers, so I'd imagine that it's catering to that market. I don't know why but I love that poo poo. I don't usually touch the Britney Spears or whatever other licensed games but I will usually throw a dollar into anything with dragons or lucky cats or Three Kingdoms warlords on them. Inject that poo poo into my veins.

I think, with the proliferation of HD touch screens, they've been able to make more overwhelming machines with tons of different counters and side bets and all this other poo poo. I would bet you (lol) anything that half the old poopsies that are funneling money into the things also have no idea what the "rules" are, all they know is that its loud and bright and occasionally you might win some money.

chibi luda
Apr 17, 2013

Wild.

I had myself a good old time in Montreal earlier this year, especially with the legal weed. Feels like kinda a waste to lock myself into casino in a city with so much cool poo poo to do but I might have to block off some for some chill high gambling times.

chibi luda
Apr 17, 2013

BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:

I worked at a Casino for a grand total of two weeks. There was a digital blackjack machine on one of the floors which had a very sexy model in a low-cut dress as the dealer. When no-one was there it would go into "attract" mode where she would just loudly ask people walling by to come play. None of this is very interesting but if no one came by for like 5 minutes the digital model would be replaced by a different woman of a different ethnicity or hair color because it just assumed that was the reason. For some reason that level of open cynicism really amused me.

Casino/Gambling Stories: For some reason that level of open cynicism really amused me.

chibi luda
Apr 17, 2013

SubnormalityStairs posted:

Hoo boy are you in luck. I work as a game dev manager for a company that develops gaming products. My team in particular builds (primarily) casino games for electronic gaming machines (EGMs).

The process is fairly complex, mainly a result of these factors
  • Jurisdictional requirements are complex and typically quite strict, but we can build individual products for literally hundreds of jurisdictions.
  • If an EGM loses power, it must be able to restore to the exact state it was in at time of shutdown
  • Because of the extreme costs associated with escaped defects (tens to hundreds of thousands of americabucks), games must be published with zero defects*
What I find really interesting is just how much churn there is in the gaming industry. The costs of these games can be quite high, but they'll get scrapped and sent to the junk pile if they don't do well in test banks or sometimes before anybody outside the company even sees them. It's better for the bottom line to eat the cost of a few games than to release a game that sucks. And by "sucks", I mean "doesn't do better than 1.2x the average performance of the games in any particular casino."

AMA

* I say this, but slight visual defects that don't run afoul of any compliance requirements will sometimes escape or be closed as acceptable (oh, this butterfly animation gets slow after nobody's played the machine for 8 hours? ok then.)

By your first point, do you mean that you can easily change one game to suit multiple legal requirements? Like, for example, you'd make separate adjustments for an AC-market machine than for one in, say, a Delaware casino?


What would you say is the overall "budget" of a given machine? Despite the big rear end screens and sounds found in most modern machines, everything has a decidedly "cheap" looking aesthetic to it. Like, in the case of a game of thrones machine, it's just literally images from the show and some text and sound effects. I can't imagine it costs that much, but then again, are there art directors that are making bank because they know the exact sort of aesthetics that attract gamblers?

Also, are there specialized internal parts for most modern machines that wouldn't otherwise be found in your average PC? I would imagine companies save a ton now by not having to manufacture all those cranks and spinning wheels and all these other moving parts from the old-timey machines, but I also can't imagine its as simple as just loading up a game onto, like, a Linux machine and putting it in a cabinet with some buttons, can it?

chibi luda
Apr 17, 2013

Ralph Crammed In posted:

That's the stupidest goddamn thing I've read all day and I just got caught up on the r/relationships and boomer thread

IIRC it is a Jeff Koons piece, a guy known for making extremely opulent poo poo for the sake of it and displaying it in public.

fake edit: my god we are truly in the final stage of capitalism

chibi luda
Apr 17, 2013

SubnormalityStairs posted:

Inside basebal-type info on gambling machines

This is all fascinating. Thank you for sharing.

chibi luda
Apr 17, 2013

Tetramin posted:

Has anybody here ever gambled on one of those river boat casinos

That guy got thrown off one in the Karma Chameleon video, OP

chibi luda
Apr 17, 2013

I Brake For MILFs posted:

Tips for poker players that are new to live games from a dealer perspective.

1. Be nice, especially to the people who don't know what they're doing. They will give you their money, eventually. Be nice.

2. Don't be a speed bump, live poker is already very slow. You don't need 2 minutes to think about a $14 raise. You're not on ESPN.

3. No one ever wants to hear your bad beat story unless a card flew off the table and hit someone in the eye. Everyone gets sucked out on, that's poker. I promise you your story isn't special.

4. If you have any questions always ask the dealer, not another player.

5. American dealers work for tips. Tip your dealers if you win a hand.

6. Pay attention to the game and protect your cards.

7. You don't have to be sociable, but seriously, don't berate new/drunk players. They will give you all their money eventually. BE NICE.

Any questions lemme know.

There's a bunch more things that are more specific, influencing action, angle shots, verbalizing your action, playing in turn, and what constitutes a raise or call in certain situations. Every room has their own house rules, so if you're not sure ask the dealer.

How often do you get people at the table that are clearly online players trying their hand at a live game? I have a couple local casino trips planned for this month and I am a bit nervous about it but at the same time I want to rip the bandaid off so to speak because playing with real people sounds a lot more fun (Also in NJ you are restricted to playing online with other people in-state and I keep seeing the same people over and over)

Do dealers generally state who is blind/BB? Are they in charge of moving the button? Whenever I play board games with friends I'm always the most aloof in all of the small housekeeping poo poo and I'm worried about how well I'll keep track of that stuff when software isn't doing it for me.

Are you absolutely sure you don't want to hear about the time I called EaglesFanEarl_52's $2 raise but then he ended up having four aces?

chibi luda
Apr 17, 2013

N. Senada posted:

Also, it’s hard to miss where the action is.

Sure, 99% of the time. But if I'm sitting there through so many hands there will inevitably be times where I stare off into space, check my phone for something, order a beer. That's what I'm worried about (see also: every time I play 7 Wonders). But I hear you.

chibi luda
Apr 17, 2013

chibi luda
Apr 17, 2013

jase1 posted:

I have all types of gambling stories you name it I have most likely gambled on it. I can regurgitate a few from my older threads I just have lovely memory due to a lot of years of hard partying so I might forget a few details. Most of my crazier stories are from a hustling pool but now I don't play as much and mostly gamble with a bookie and play poker. I do play a weekly mahjong game late on the weekends after they close and that's more fun than anything I gamble on.

I play in a normal 5-10 game at the local dog track around here and it's usually filled with white rich old dudes with to much money or your typical degenerates betting on dogs and playing poker. The game I play usually doesn't get started until around midnight and will go until we are finished and because most of the players are regulars we get a lot of leeway at the room. A few weeks ago I showed up to the room a little early and while I was waiting for the game to start up I sat down at a 2-5 NL game. Within the first few rounds I can usually peg the type of players I am playing with, I know a lot of them so you get used to their style but when I see a new guy my eyes light up. I see a young kid who has the wonder and excitement of his first casino trip. I sit down and say hi to the regulars and notice this kid has about 1500 in front of him which means he has had a decent night. I immediately start chatting him up asking him how his night is going he responds back with a very cheerful story of how it's his 21st birthday and it's the first time he has ever played poker at a brick and mortar. He is an online player and now it all makes sense why he is acting the way he is. It's his first time sitting at a live table and he is just overcome with emotion. I notice right away he is bullying the table making outlandish raises from any position, he raises $200 into a $25 pot and things like that.

I keep chatting with him and stay friendly with him until I get pocket queens. I only have $500 in front of me and he raises it to $150 I think about it for less than 2 seconds and push all in. As he is contemplating I get the sense he has no clue what to do I chuckle and say "can't find the fold button"? His friendly demeanor is now serious and I start to realize not a single person at the table has challenged this kid. This is his first big decision and it's not really for all that much either. He folds JJ face up and says he thinks he is beat. He asks me what I have and I tell him I didn't look I knew I could get you to fold from one big bet thinking he will figure out I am full of poo poo and we will go back to being friendly. He shuts down completely and gets the dead serious stare like now he means business. He stops talking to me and starts tanking every decision. About an hour later my stack is around $1200 after flopping a full house with 1010 against an aggressive player who never folds and the kid is sitting at about $900. I get dealt KK and raise it to $25 the standard raise at the table and he reraises me to $200 I give a little stupid speech on how whatever happens in this hand doesn't really matter because my real game starts soon and I push all in. He insta calls flips over AA and gives a big fist pump while standing up. His demeanor is all happy now because he has me in bad shape. I joke with him and say Kings have been good to me I see a third one in my future. He laughs nervously but still is confident he has me this time. Dealer puts out the flop and boom I hit a K and the table does the usual ohhhhh and ahhhhh and the kid takes his glasses off looks down at the flop and in the most defeated voice says "you have got to be loving kidding me this loving guy is pure luck" the dealer runs out the turn and the river and it doesnt help and the kid just slumps back in his chair staring at the dealer counting our chips. The dealer says I have him covered and the kid literally pushes the chips across the table in an aggressive matter mixing some of them in another players stack. A total dick move in my opinion but I have an ego and can be a dick as well so no big deal to me. He is now white as a ghost and just sitting at the table completely depressed with all the money he lost. He looks at me as I am stacking the chips gives me the finger and gets up from the table. As he is walking away I say "hey kid" he turns around and I say "happy birthday'!

Lmao that owns.

Moments like these are why I'm falling in love with poker. Even when I'm losing the situations it creates are just compelling as poo poo

chibi luda
Apr 17, 2013

Was just made aware of virtual sports beting. Folks we've reached new degenerate heights

https://www.betradar.com/virtual-sports-betting/football/

chibi luda
Apr 17, 2013

BurgerQuest posted:

Yeah, without wanting to poo poo on people who like gambling/poker/whatever and can afford it, the whole industry is a loving open wound society particularly affecting low income earners. Gambling addiction is real and destroys more lives than any other 'industry'. I like reading the stories but the whole thing is a miserable sad affair.

Definitely agreed. I find the trashiness alluring but I legit find the implications of casinos everywhere depressing as gently caress.

Also the fact that so many areas authorize casinos because its an easier way to raise revenues than, like, actually making meaningful improvements to the community.

The aforementioned gambling parlors on the UK high streets are especially sad

chibi luda
Apr 17, 2013

JAMOOOL posted:


one thing I've seen happen several times in games like ultimate hold 'em or 4-card is that the dealer will misread their hand, like they won't realize they have a straight or a flush or they'll screw up the kicker, which sometimes wrongfully awards a win to a player who shouldn't have won. I never point this out because I'd feel like an absolute dick for doing so but I do feel bad for the dealers if someone's gonna review the tape and get them in trouble. idk if that happens though

Stuff like this happens even on big-timey televised games, including this years WSOP

https://youtu.be/rbVn8KkpJu0

I feel bad for the dealer but human error is always going to be a thing lest we get robodealers or everyone just plays online and only online

chibi luda
Apr 17, 2013

Also I would appreciate any gambling movies yall would recommend.

Rounders is a really silly film but its a lot of fun.

Hold em really lends itself well to the screen because of all of the tense moments and dramatic reveals that ensue. Makes Casino Royale a solid movie as well.

chibi luda
Apr 17, 2013

:whitewater:

chibi luda
Apr 17, 2013

Jase, have you ever considered trying to get your stories published somewhere? If you worked with a co-author to polish up your posts a bit for readability, I think you'd have something a lot of people would want to read.

chibi luda
Apr 17, 2013

Update since I mentioned it before: I played a few hands of 1/2 holdem. Played really conservatively as the dude next to me was a total shark. Had two dealers who were both sweethearts and made my first time relatively embarrassment free. Lost about ten bucks plus whatever I tipped both dealers. One guy had roughly 1k in chips which strikes me as excessive for a low stakes table but at the same time he got to bully the poo poo out of me and the other nanostackers.


I did not realize NY had legal sports betting and I am currently enjoying some cheap/free beers at the Catskills sports book bar while I watch the Eagles game

They have comfy chairs here and TVs with every sporting event that is even semi-relevant. I put the princely sum of $10 on Philly winning and another 10 on the Chiefs

Casinos are lots of fun if you don’t piss away tons of money on Buffalo Gold slots all evening

chibi luda
Apr 17, 2013

Ugly In The Morning posted:

Oh man, you went to the casino in the Catskills? I hear that’s a sinking ship, they sold half their slot machines recently.

It’s loving dead here but it’s hard to beat $50 for a master suite. Fiancée gets a spa day while I get beer lovely yelling at football and degening

If I could do so I’d wager this place closes by the end of 2020

chibi luda
Apr 17, 2013

Uncut Gems is a great gambling movie, btw. Totally captures the visceral, sick thrill of blowing money on remote chances.

chibi luda
Apr 17, 2013

What is the average age of a UK casino patron? I have no data to back this up offhand but I would imagine it’s mostly olds like in the US.

Do UK casinos (and by casinos I assume you mean an actual gambling palace and not, like, the William Hill sandwiched between a Greggs and a McDonalds) have other entertainment options like most US casinos? For example, most places have at least a steakhouse or two (overpriced, but a fun trashy meal to cap off your fun trashy day), concerts, and other stuff..

What are the food options like at your places?

And of course, any stories about weird regulars and co workers are extremely my poo poo

chibi luda
Apr 17, 2013


Toxteth OGrady posted:



OH god, here's a story. We had roulette cards on the tables for the punters to record numbers on (no laws against encouraging gamblers fallacies). One wheelchair bound punter known as whispering Bob (syphilis had hosed up his vocal chords) would fold said cards down the middle, and use them as a gutter via which he'd piss into the urinal, rather than using the disabled toilet like a non degenerate. He'd then return the cards to the roulette table. Everyone knew to avoid any roulette cards folded lengthways.




https://youtu.be/vUz9xCTOPRw

chibi luda
Apr 17, 2013

I haven't even gambled that much in the past few months (like, literally -$200 across two casino trips. absolutely nothing in degen terms) but somehow one of the bigger hotels in AC got my information and I got a free two-night stay in February.

Very much looking forward to getting drunk and eating overpriced steak when the boardwalk is post-apocalyptic quiet. Like the Vegas scene in Blade Runner 2049 but with slush and sleet.

chibi luda
Apr 17, 2013

If you have never been to a)New Jersey b) a casino or c)a casino in New Jersey then this dude is all you really need to witness


BROCCOLI GAHLIC CON-FIT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1L4-U0JFNs&t=397s

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chibi luda
Apr 17, 2013

Nigmaetcetera posted:

I’ve been invited on stage by Penn & Teller twice but turned it down both times , maybe I’ll be more enthused about being on stage when my and everybody’s faces are melting.

This is one of the more unique flexes I've seen on these forums

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