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gfarrell80
Aug 31, 2006


AtraMorS posted:

Or it means that the nature of sci-fi reverses the relationship of the reader to the moral era in question. With Quixote, the reader is looking back at a moral system already considered antiquated, but with The Expanse and Holden, our moral norms are being flung into the far future. To everybody else in the show, Holden kind of looks like Quixote, but to us his morals are more or less familiar (albeit pretty rigid).

This is gibberish. Sci-fi is usually always within the workings of our current idealized moral norms or commentary on where our current system is wanting. Except for some garbage speculative exceptions, authors do not project some imagined future morality into their characters, because current readers will not relate.

You think readers considered chivalry antiquated when Don Quixote was published in 1605? Notions of chivalry still hang around our knecks to this day. Hell, Star Wars adopted chivalric tropes to the hilt. Other than the bourgeois notions of courtly love, the general moral rules of chivalry are still applied to this day in multiple contexts; from rules in warfare to etiquette when interacting with the opposite gender.

Holden is far from the only strongly moral character on the show. Alex is generally an equally righteous mouthpiece for morality along with Holden. Alex tries to introduce Amos to helping people in need multiple times. Naomi as well tries to keep the crew steered well on occasions: "each lovely thing we do makes the next one easier."

Heck, in terms of suffering from altered reality and going righteously against the grain, Miller is probably a better candidate for a Don Quixote character than Holden.

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Slashrat
Jun 6, 2011

YOSPOS


Chef Boyardeez Nuts posted:

It's funny how pretelling Julie's story throws everyone off. She was a prisoner on the Anubis when it helped take down the Donnager (you can hear the Anubis' crew running to battle stations and popping off railgun rounds in her intro.)

As far as I can tell the rough timeline is

1.Anubissteals/collects Protomolecule from Phoebe Station burns for Eros.
*
2. OPA gets wind of the plot, sends the OP-A-Team to intercept the Anubis on the Scorpuli.
3. Donnager arrives at Phoebe's remains and begins burning in the last known heading of the Anubis.
4. OP-A-Team "intercepts" the Anubis but they get wrecked and boarded. Julie is captured.
5. Anubis crew puts a Martian distress beacon on the Scorpuli and sets it up as a trap for the Donnager.
6. The Canterbury blunders into the trap, gets blown up.
7. Donnager picks up the Knight.
*
8. Anubis and other stealth ships attack the Donnager.
9. Anubis is infected and scuttled.
10.Julie escapes the Anubis and burns for Eros in the Anubis' shuttle.
11. Holden blows up the Anubis.

In retrospect, it seems pretty clear that the protomolecule on the Anubis escaped as a result of battle damage sustained fighting the Donnager.

*At some point the Anubis is joined by the other stealth ships.

Going by the Spacedock video on the Stealth frigate (which is still canon in the context of the show last I checked), the Anubis wasn't part of the attack on the Donnager. The sounds of battle Julie hears while onboard were just the Anubis firing upon the Canterbury.

Also, the Canterbury was the target of the Anubis from the start, not the Donnager. They mention the Canterbury being within range when they set it up, and that they expect the Cant to pick up the bait signal soon.

Edit: corrected a brain-fart saying the Cant was the target of the Scopuli

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uezHDcGbjlk#t=159s

Slashrat fucked around with this message at 09:22 on Mar 3, 2021

piL
Sep 20, 2007
(__|\\\\)

Taco Defender

gfarrell80 posted:


You think readers considered chivalry antiquated when Don Quixote was published in 1605? Notions of chivalry still hang around our knecks to this day. Hell, Star Wars adopted chivalric tropes to the hilt. Other than the bourgeois notions of courtly love, the general moral rules of chivalry are still applied to this day in multiple contexts; from rules in warfare to etiquette when interacting with the opposite gender.

Chivalric customs remained, but the chivalry that dominated the Middle ages started to die two hundred years before Don Quixote. I feel pretty comfortable describing many beliefs of the early 19th century as antiquated, even if some have extant components still alive today.

twistedmentat
Nov 21, 2003

What's a war hero got to do to get some lubrication around here?



piL posted:

Chivalric customs remained, but the chivalry that dominated the Middle ages started to die two hundred years before Don Quixote. I feel pretty comfortable describing many beliefs of the early 19th century as antiquated, even if some have extant components still alive today.

Victorian morality still infects western society. It's funny, that Don Quixote was written when? in the 17 century? Its kinda funny how today we'd think that the time of knights and stuff was all around the same era, but that would be more than 200 years before then. That's like thinking that the Mexican-American War is in the same era as us now. I guess because up until recently, people still pooped in holes or pots, used candles to light up the night and had to learn an instrument if they wanted music so it all kinda blends together even though the technology is similar, the societies that existed in those periods were much more sophisticated and evolved than they had been during what we would have thought of the high middle ages. There is a reason we call this period early modern, because you can start to see the systems that we have now coming into being.

Chef Boyardeez Nuts
Sep 9, 2011

You're not getting another fucking dime from us, Lowtax

Slashrat posted:

Going by the Spacedock video on the Stealth frigate (which is still canon in the context of the show last I checked), the Anubis wasn't part of the attack on the Donnager. The sounds of battle Julie hears while onboard were just the Anubis firing upon the Canterbury.

Also, the Canterbury was the target of the Scopuli from the start. They mention the Canterbury being within range when they set it up, and that they expect the Cant to pick up the bait signal soon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uezHDcGbjlk#t=159s

Wait, so their plan was to send a signal, a kind of signal routinely ignored by ships like the Cant, to the Can't?

Vim Fuego
Jun 1, 2000

I just had an epiphany: the internet is useless!





Ultra Carp

gfarrell80 posted:

Prometheus and Ad Astra were indeed fantastically terrible films for a multitude of reasons. Prometheus I think is just a hacky franchise reboot attempt, but if you delve into Ad Astra much IMHO it is a deeply insidious movie when it comes to the assumptions and depictions it makes about the near future.

What is Oven Cant?

Ad Astra was an allegory for a psychological journey, nothing the characters do is meant to be taken literally

Slashrat
Jun 6, 2011

YOSPOS


Chef Boyardeez Nuts posted:

Wait, so their plan was to send a signal, a kind of signal routinely ignored by ships like the Cant, to the Can't?

Seems so. I presume the Protogen earther goons were either unaware of the practice out in the belt, thought it less widespread than it was or just accepted that waiting around a little bit on the off-chance they could get the Earth-Mars war started right then and there was worth it, and if not they'd find some other way later. Remember, the Scopuli finding them caught them entirely by surprise, so everything about the plan leading to the Canterbury's destruction was slapped together in like a day because the opportunity presented itself.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

The level of betrayal I felt when Paradox announced their new wallpaper tore something from me that I'll never be able to recover. They tore away my ability to respect anything, and they tore away my ability to feel human.

Slashrat posted:

Seems so. I presume the Protogen earther goons were either unaware of the practice out in the belt, thought it less widespread than it was or just accepted that waiting around a little bit on the off-chance they could get the Earth-Mars war started right then and there was worth it, and if not they'd find some other way later. Remember, the Scopuli finding them caught them entirely by surprise, so everything about the plan leading to the Canterbury's destruction was slapped together in like a day because the opportunity presented itself.

One assumption is that the trap was really for the OPA, on the basis that they'd send someone out to look for the Scopuli and then Protogen could kill them as well. But the Anubis is the ship with the Protomolecule sample, so they really shouldn't be loving about, they should be getting themselves to the ring station asap.

e: although having captured the Scopuli, the Anubis knows that they had their flight plan. Which means their hidden base is not so hidden and they have a reason not to beeline there.

Typo
Aug 19, 2009






twistedmentat posted:



Makes you think.

CommanderApaul
Aug 30, 2003

It's amazing their hands can support such awesome.


twistedmentat posted:

It's also hilarious looking, a big grey potato floating in space. This also makes me wonder what the furtherest people have gone. Ganymede is a moon of Jupiter, which is pretty far out, and then Ceres is further out than that.

Also I'm realizing what I thought were the season stories was wrong, I thought season 3 was the Prax season, but it starts in season 2.

Nitpick, but Ceres is in the asteroid belt proper, and well inside the orbit of Jupiter.

Orbits wise, you have Earth, Eros, Mars, Ceres/Tycho/Pallas, everything in the Jovian system (Io, Ganymede, etc), everything in the Saturn system (Titan, Enceladus, Phoebe). Phoebe is the furthest out thing that is mentioned in the series I believe (might be some Neptune poo poo) until the Ring stabilizes outside Uranus' orbit.

The killer stuff is orbital mechanics though. Finding out about Eros makes me want to fire up a solar system map and adjust it out to the estimate time period of the show to see where everything actually is. Is there a planetary conjunction, or is burning from Ceres to Pallas taking you the LONG way around to avoid the inners.

During Nemesis Games, in stuff that was cut from Season 5, Alex and Bobby are fleeing from Marco after escaping an attack on a martian convoy going from Mars to Luna and have to plot a course that takes them inside Venus' orbit and there's a throwaway about the Razorback being able to stay cool that close to the sun.

CommanderApaul fucked around with this message at 03:30 on Mar 4, 2021

twistedmentat
Nov 21, 2003

What's a war hero got to do to get some lubrication around here?



CommanderApaul posted:

Nitpick, but Ceres is in the asteroid belt proper, and well inside the orbit of Jupiter.

Orbits wise, you have Earth, Eros, Mars, Ceres/Tycho/Pallas, everything in the Jovian system (Io, Ganymede, etc), everything in the Saturn system (Titan, Enceladus, Phoebe). Phoebe is the furthest out thing that is mentioned in the series I believe (might be some Neptune poo poo) until the Ring stabilizes outside Uranus' orbit.

Ooh I thought the Belt was between Jupiter and Neptune, not between Mars and Jupiter.

While looking at the wiki for the stations, I saw that Ceres became completely under control of the OPA, I cannot remember if that is mentioned in the show, hence the spoiler.

Bobbie's escape from the embassy is pretty fantastic. She just beats the poo poo out of Martins, and good for her, that guy deserved it. Also, holy poo poo what do you expect when you slaughter the close knit squad of your elites and then expect the elite of the elite to just take that laying down after blowing smoke up her rear end. They probably trained her to think of herself, to have situational awareness to be able to operate effectively as a leader, that does not go well when you assume blind patriotism is going to keep them quiet.

twistedmentat fucked around with this message at 04:45 on Mar 4, 2021

Mu Zeta
Oct 17, 2002

Me crush ass to dust



Bobbie only found out about the weapons test because Chrisjen gave it to her. If it wasn't for that there's a good chance she would have stayed a marine, or at least went back to Mars prison uneventfully.

Pizza Segregationist
Jul 18, 2006



packetmantis posted:

Regarding the Don Quixote stuff, I've felt that the show/books (much more apparent in the books, which is why I stopped reading them) have some gross libertarian undertones, in that helping people who don't "deserve it" is inherently bad. I missed that with Holden's idealism but I definitely noticed it with the Basic stuff on Earth.

I've only read the first book so far, but I don't get that vibe at all. From reading the authors' twitter account I have my criticisms of their politics but I definitely wouldn't characterize them as libertarians. The belters are pretty clearly characterized as a colonized people and I don't think most libertarians can even conceive of why colonialism would cause social problems. Also private security forces like Star Helix and RCE security are portrayed as violent and corrupt while the Protogen corporation commits horrific, genocidal acts of human experimentation. The authors can definitely see the bad side of pro-market philosophy

misguided rage
Jun 15, 2010

God I fucking love Diablo 3 gold, it even paid for this shitty title

twistedmentat posted:

Bobbie's escape from the embassy is pretty fantastic. She just beats the poo poo out of Martins, and good for her, that guy deserved it. Also, holy poo poo what do you expect when you slaughter the close knit squad of your elites and then expect the elite of the elite to just take that laying down after blowing smoke up her rear end. They probably trained her to think of herself, to have situational awareness to be able to operate effectively as a leader, that does not go well when you assume blind patriotism is going to keep them quiet.
That scene is very TV, but I loved him going from "you kids these days don't know anything about sacrifice!" because she's upset that her squadmates were murdered for a marketing video, into immediately giving her a copy of the tape because he didn't want to get punched in the face again.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

The level of betrayal I felt when Paradox announced their new wallpaper tore something from me that I'll never be able to recover. They tore away my ability to respect anything, and they tore away my ability to feel human.

Pizza Segregationist posted:

I've only read the first book so far, but I don't get that vibe at all. From reading the authors' twitter account I have my criticisms of their politics but I definitely wouldn't characterize them as libertarians. The belters are pretty clearly characterized as a colonized people and I don't think most libertarians can even conceive of why colonialism would cause social problems. Also private security forces like Star Helix and RCE security are portrayed as violent and corrupt while the Protogen corporation commits horrific, genocidal acts of human experimentation. The authors can definitely see the bad side of pro-market philosophy

The show is very clear that the belters are an oppressed people. That Earth Basic is actually a pretty poo poo system for the people receiving it, even as they get smeared as 'takers' by the Martians. That the Martian system of 'everyone pulling together in a common purpose' sounds great from a distance but that's because fascism sounds great from a distance. That tech companies can make wonderous things, but the people in charge of them don't care about the misery the cause along the way and definitely don't consider themselves under the control of a national government.

What the story fundamentally has to say about ideology is that there is no magic ideology that results in people becoming good. The heroes in the story are all good because they learn and display empathy towards others. The villains literally cut away the bit of their brain that does empathy. That's what you are supposed to take away.

Orange Devil
Sep 30, 2010

CUNT


They made this really drat explicit through Peaches last season too.

Literally saying "hey maybe if we didn't see all the people from Muslim countries as outside our tribe and instead included them in our prosperity because they, like us, are human beings, some of them wouldn't feel the need to fly planes into buildings?"

GodFish
Oct 10, 2012

We're your first, last, and only line of defense. We live in secret. We exist in shadow.

And we dress in black.


There's a scene in a later book explicitly making fun of libertarians too, so, I suspect they probably aren't libertarians.

Typo
Aug 19, 2009






Infidelicious posted:

Marco's actor is good, the character is supposed to be a preening douchebag.

I feel like in every scene Macro does that wide eye stare and then ramble on about either why terrism against da innas is good or why his ex naomi is bad

Also, Drummer prob will be the one to kill marco rite?

The 3 characters for whom killing Marcos make sense are Drummer, naomi and filip but I don't think the expanse is dark enough for Kinslaying.

Typo fucked around with this message at 03:12 on Mar 5, 2021

twistedmentat
Nov 21, 2003

What's a war hero got to do to get some lubrication around here?



Seriously, the most logical and satisfying end for Marco is Dummer just shooting him in the head while everyone debates about what to do with him.

When they renamed the Roci the first time, I thought they were going to be doing that every so often, have a rotating ship name. Also completely forgot the slick maneuvers when the Roci saves Bobbie and Chrissy.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

The level of betrayal I felt when Paradox announced their new wallpaper tore something from me that I'll never be able to recover. They tore away my ability to respect anything, and they tore away my ability to feel human.

twistedmentat posted:

Seriously, the most logical and satisfying end for Marco is Dummer just shooting him in the head while everyone debates about what to do with him.


They've literally already done that exact scene with different characters and it made more sense there. Marco is a populist, the satisfying end for him that everyone will agree with is that he goes on trial as a war criminal and end up isolated and forgotten in a cell somewhere for the rest of his life.

Jakabite
Jul 31, 2010

How shall we fuck off, O Lord?



The show and books are very much not libertarian. If anything they’re about shared humanity. They don’t really have much of real-political politics slant at all to be honest, other than the value of self-rule I guess.

etalian
Mar 20, 2006



twistedmentat posted:

Seriously, the most logical and satisfying end for Marco is Dummer just shooting him in the head while everyone debates about what to do with him.

One of the few times it was sad that the Drummer didn't let her "famous temper" take control when they had Marco right next the airlock after jumping him.

Cannon_Fodder
Jul 17, 2007

"Hey, where did Steve go?"
Design by Kamoc

etalian posted:

One of the few times it was sad that the Drummer didn't let her "famous temper" take control when they had Marco right next the airlock after jumping him.

Yeah, this didn't sit well with me at all.

I don't like her judgement. She's playing the game, but seems to make the wrong moves until someone course-corrects her.

Typo
Aug 19, 2009






Best storyline this seasons are the belter storylines

Holden continues to be "Mass effect player who just hits paragon on every dialogue choice "

avasarala story is bland but Shohreh Aghdashloo is so good I'd watch her explain how to mix lunar rum or whatever and it would be better than 90% of TV shows

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



Cannon_Fodder posted:

Yeah, this didn't sit well with me at all.

I don't like her judgement. She's playing the game, but seems to make the wrong moves until someone course-corrects her.

Didn't he break the truce twice in S4? First time before they had the airlock trial, and then again after? Best thing for Drummer to do would have been to play up the idea of Belter's policing themselves - the problem isn't that he attacked Inner ships, the problem is that he broke a treaty the Belt signed - and putting a big loving bounty on his head.

twistedmentat
Nov 21, 2003

What's a war hero got to do to get some lubrication around here?



I do like how when characters first meet each other in this they always fight, but you know they're going to be buddies eventually.

Bobbie going from being happy to be among Martian decor for the first time in a while turning to anger seeing the flag defaced.

Also was Ngyun on the ship that attacked Mao's ship? He's clearly in cahoots with Erinwright as he straight up says so, and once he gets aboard and leads the Agatha King to a very messy and unpleasant death.

I also realized why I got confused on what season was what storyline, is that the Syfy seasons have more episodes than the Amazon ones so they have time to do more stories in one season.

twistedmentat fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Mar 5, 2021

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etalian
Mar 20, 2006



Typo posted:

Best storyline this seasons are the belter storylines

Holden continues to be "Mass effect player who just hits paragon on every dialogue choice "

avasarala story is bland but Shohreh Aghdashloo is so good I'd watch her explain how to mix lunar rum or whatever and it would be better than 90% of TV shows

Amos does the Renegade interrupts like the beatdown with a can of chicken scene.




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