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Pilchenstein
May 17, 2012

So your plan is for half of us to die?


Hot Rope Guy

Boba Pearl posted:

I don't have enough resources to build a new deck so if Burn gets nerfed to oblivion, I won't have a way to generate cards.
You can get a decent amount of xp each week just by completing quests against the ai tbh

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coldtaxi
Jan 1, 2009


Fun Shoe

goferchan posted:

It's listed as one of the worst matchups on the mobalytics tracker so maybe not, lol, I know it's easier to remember the good games where you win. No way it's as dismal as the 35% win rate they show suggests, though

Iíve been playing a lot of Swain/Sej too, and I think itís fun because itís sort of hybrid aggro/control that has a potential answer for everything. So you get (and remember) those fun games against burn where you pull the right cards at the right times to keep their board under control and beat them to 0, and you get those fun games against control where you get the right cards at the right times to burn them down or flip Swain ASAP and go ham. (I also think the fun factor of the deck is in big part due to how consistently you can level up both heroes, even in games you end up losing.)

But the key is always Ďthe right cards at the right times.í The big weakness of the deck is basically no card draw (unless you play shared spoils, I guess), so if your hand sucks, you can also lose against anything. Thereís definitely games where you end up with like Sejuani, the Leviathan, a transfusion and an elixir of iron in your opening hand against burn and itís pretty much over from round 1.

ShaneB
Oct 21, 2002



Sedisp posted:

This is untrue.

I can pull up the weekly meta reports I guess but broadly it's gone from high 50s to mid 50s.

Perhaps I'm wrong that Burn is a great deck to provide a foundation to a meta, but I think we are in for a lot of 12 minute grindfests with Atrocity finishes or Karma bullshit, and everyone will wonder where the check on these decks went.

Boba Pearl
Dec 27, 2019

Yellow Pearl, Blue Pearl, Pink Pearl

Boba Pearl.




I was unaware that the AI battles counted for weekly rewards. Whoops.

Ra Ra Rasputin
Apr 2, 2011


Boba Pearl posted:

I don't have enough resources to build a new deck so if Burn gets nerfed to oblivion, I won't have a way to generate cards.

Rearguard won't see play but I'm sure boomcrew rookie is still viable for causing damage and rearguard can be replaced by something else.

Locke Dunnegan
Apr 25, 2005

Respectable Bespectacled Receptacle


I entirely stopped playing constructed Runeterra after tiring of burn being everywhere so maybe it's not just win rates but literal user retention in having a bunch of people who aren't solid players getting repeatedly stomped by a cheap, extremely fast, almost entirely uninteractive deck with no champs moving on to other poo poo. Expedition isn't perfect on balance but at least it's a bunch of extra wrenches thrown into the works so it isn't just keeping track of which meta cards my meta opponent has meta played meta or just losing 90% of my games vs a specific deck because all of their stuff is basically "spend two mana to do four nexus damage or maybe six or eight actually why not"

To paraphrase Swim in a recent vid on the changes, burn makes you stop playing the videogame quickly, and people want to play the videogame.

Sedisp
Jun 20, 2012




ShaneB posted:

Perhaps I'm wrong that Burn is a great deck to provide a foundation to a meta, but I think we are in for a lot of 12 minute grindfests with Atrocity finishes or Karma bullshit, and everyone will wonder where the check on these decks went.

You should not balance a bo1 format around aggro that does not care about actually hitting the nexus.

It is far too consistent to be the fulcrum and teching against it leads to dead draws. This is fine if you can remove those cards in game two but since you can't it leads to a lot of non games.

People hate a control deck that controls their game plan burn pretty much does the same thing except it just gets to ignore your game plan while doing it. There's no early sweepers that deal more than one damage so you can't even punish burn for getting too greedy.

Sedisp fucked around with this message at 04:46 on May 26, 2020

goferchan
Feb 8, 2004



Boba Pearl posted:

I don't have enough resources to build a new deck so if Burn gets nerfed to oblivion, I won't have a way to generate cards.

These changes probably mean it won't be an optimal choice for climbing the ranked ladder anymore but it absolutely hasn't been nerfed into oblivion.

Finicums Wake
Mar 13, 2017


i'm much more sympathetic to having strong, non-interactive burn decks warping the meta in a bo3 sideboard format. but as it is right now it's just auto-lose (or nearly so) for so many near-viable decks that it seems unhealthy for the meta. there definitely needs to be an aggro deck to keep slower control decks in check--something like spiders or jinx/draven from last meta--but this one was either too strong or the wrong sort of strong.

if not for both nerfs hitting ranger and the bear, i could've seen scouts taking that place. or maybe a lucian deck or something.

i'm pretty sure there will still be aggro tho, even if it's tier 2 for this round of balances

Finicums Wake
Mar 13, 2017


while i'm not sure people would like it due to the time it takes to play out, a bo3 format with sideboards seems like it'd be good for the game in a lot of ways

KazigluBey
Oct 30, 2011

boner



I would not like a bo3 mode to feel mandatory in the least. I would like SMOrcs to feel unwelcome and their decks to get nerfed. I'm pretty happy with things as they are right now, with 1.2 coming up.

Sedisp
Jun 20, 2012




Just browsing the meta stats and I have to say anyone who was justifying burn was living on a different planet.

Monathin
Sep 1, 2011


Yeah, Fast/Aggro Burn was absolutely not a question of it was "OP", it literally got to ignore 90% of game state and was genuinely too uninteractive for a game that wants to thrive on, y'know, how cards interact. I do think the Legion Rearguard nerf might have been a bit too overboard but I can absolutely believe there was data showing some abnormal player dropoff.

doingitwrong
Jul 27, 2013


Pilchenstein posted:

Burn is the only reliable counter to everyone just stalling until they get their instant-win combo off though, which is super loving boring.

Sure philosophically, I get that aggro and burn have a place in the game.

But a deck that can goldfish you in 2 attacks is suppressing way more than late game OTK decks, especially when a huge chunk of its face damage is unblock-able and repeatable. This game doesn't have efficient removal. It has heroes that level up after effects like "damage the nexus on 5 different rounds". It's clear that their design goals are for the game going to at least round 6 or y, ending decisively by round 9 or so. Burn was too efficient for that.

Firebert
Aug 16, 2004


my diamond chest: like a million common wildcards and dust

my platinum chest:



what the christ

Tezzeract
Dec 25, 2007

Think I took a wrong turn...

Firebert posted:

my diamond chest: like a million common wildcards and dust

my platinum chest:



what the christ

Is the 2 champs plat chest hardcoded?

boredsatellite
Dec 7, 2013



Ah I misread the changes to Karma, thought she was getting a health buff with a cost increase. Discard everything I said before.

Also nice chest open

Pilchenstein
May 17, 2012

So your plan is for half of us to die?


Hot Rope Guy

doingitwrong posted:

Sure philosophically, I get that aggro and burn have a place in the game.

But a deck that can goldfish you in 2 attacks is suppressing way more than late game OTK decks, especially when a huge chunk of its face damage is unblock-able and repeatable. This game doesn't have efficient removal. It has heroes that level up after effects like "damage the nexus on 5 different rounds". It's clear that their design goals are for the game going to at least round 6 or y, ending decisively by round 9 or so. Burn was too efficient for that.
I mean, that's fair but the issue a lot of people have with burn is "it kills me with unblockable damage over a number of turns before the game goes long enough for me to kill it with unblockable damage in a single turn" and I'd argue that maybe there's a common problem they could address there, instead of making sure every unit burn plays can be removed by a single spell before it does anything

For the record, I'd much rather games went on longer and had more interesting back and forth but I'm not sure how practical that is given the current card set - why risk playing an interesting game when it's safer to stall out until your game winning combo goes off?

Firebert posted:

my diamond chest: like a million common wildcards and dust
I got four cards that weren't dusted out of a rank 13 vault. The game really needs a screen that shows you exactly how much you're missing to complete the full set because I probably have more than enough shards/wildcards to do it at this point but going through the full list of cards and counting is just

ShaneB
Oct 21, 2002



Pilchenstein posted:

I got four cards that weren't dusted out of a rank 13 vault. The game really needs a screen that shows you exactly how much you're missing to complete the full set because I probably have more than enough shards/wildcards to do it at this point but going through the full list of cards and counting is just

Yeah, I got 5 out of 13+3 this week. I use a spreadsheet from a reddit person to track it all. I just don't care about 98% of the remaining cards I have unowned even though I can fully craft them all. Just banking everything until the next set I guess. I have 88 more common wilds than I have left unowned, and finally even 4 more rares and epic wilds than unowned.

KazigluBey
Oct 30, 2011

boner



Pilchenstein posted:

I mean, that's fair but the issue a lot of people have with burn is "it kills me with unblockable damage over a number of turns before the game goes long enough for me to kill it with unblockable damage in a single turn" and I'd argue that maybe there's a common problem they could address there, instead of making sure every unit burn plays can be removed by a single spell before it does anything

1TK stall decks are/were nowhere near as much of a problem as burn was, so this is a false equivalence. You don't like playing against slow decks, which is fine, but there were more people who did not like playing against SMOrc blowouts and I guess with the numbers backing it up the devs agreed and decided to do something about it. As someone else said, the game's core champion design seems to be pointing towards the devs wanting a median game time of 6+ turns with averages ending on 9+, and if that's at all true aggro/burn will never be allowed to be a major meta definer. Which is great.

If people want the SMOrc experience they can always play HS, where aggro metas aren't touched for half a year or more whenever they develop. Good riddance to THAT, I hope Runeterra aggro/burn never rises from the trashcan where it belongs.

Locke Dunnegan
Apr 25, 2005

Respectable Bespectacled Receptacle


Pilchenstein posted:

I mean, that's fair but the issue a lot of people have with burn is "it kills me with unblockable damage over a number of turns before the game goes long enough for me to kill it with unblockable damage in a single turn" and I'd argue that maybe there's a common problem they could address there, instead of making sure every unit burn plays can be removed by a single spell before it does anything

For the record, I'd much rather games went on longer and had more interesting back and forth but I'm not sure how practical that is given the current card set - why risk playing an interesting game when it's safer to stall out until your game winning combo goes off?

I got four cards that weren't dusted out of a rank 13 vault. The game really needs a screen that shows you exactly how much you're missing to complete the full set because I probably have more than enough shards/wildcards to do it at this point but going through the full list of cards and counting is just

I really wish this "people just want to OTK" bullshit as an argument against nerfing oppressively powerful fast decks would stop. It's literally came up in every thread or forum of every CCG I've played and it's always wrong.

I want to have minion combat with interesting decisions.

I want to have my life total be a resource that is also spent by my opponents depending on their own gameplan, but if most games end exclusively because my opponent could spend a single resource in a couple turns regardless of what I do, it's me just playing a game I lose constantly with no choice. That's not why I play games.

I swear to God I wouldn't be surprised if people saying this poo poo are people who are compulsively competitive and have a psychological dependence on playing as little of the game with as little interaction with other people as possible so they can be Best Nerd and so anything that reduces that makes them irrationally upset.

Or they just have differing opinions I dunno

EDIT: some words

Locke Dunnegan fucked around with this message at 18:15 on May 26, 2020

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


KazigluBey posted:

1TK stall decks are/were nowhere near as much of a problem as burn was, so this is a false equivalence. You don't like playing against slow decks, which is fine, but there were more people who did not like playing against SMOrc blowouts and I guess with the numbers backing it up the devs agreed and decided to do something about it. As someone else said, the game's core champion design seems to be pointing towards the devs wanting a median game time of 6+ turns with averages ending on 9+, and if that's at all true aggro/burn will never be allowed to be a major meta definer. Which is great.

If people want the SMOrc experience they can always play HS, where aggro metas aren't touched for half a year or more whenever they develop. Good riddance to THAT, I hope Runeterra aggro/burn never rises from the trashcan where it belongs.
Ezrael was absolutely everywhere the month before Rising Tides came around, this isn't an idle speculation. The amount of burn on ladder was also like nothing compared to how much Hecarim there was back in the day which is why I couldn't care less about its 16% meta representation (which roughly translated to one game vs burn per day for me).

I'll also mention that burn was not nerfed out of relevance and you may be disappointed tomorrow.

No Wave fucked around with this message at 17:20 on May 26, 2020

Sedisp
Jun 20, 2012




My favorite thing about burn is it let a streamer who never played the game before easily climb during twitch rivals.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


I guess you can say the same about They Who Endure decks.

No Wave fucked around with this message at 17:29 on May 26, 2020

Sedisp
Jun 20, 2012




One is a tier one deck with a favorable match up against literally 80% of the meta and one isn't.

Locke Dunnegan
Apr 25, 2005

Respectable Bespectacled Receptacle


No Wave posted:

Ezrael was absolutely everywhere the month before Rising Tides came around, this isn't an idle speculation. The amount of burn on ladder was also like nothing compared to how much Hecarim there was back in the day which is why I couldn't care less about its 16% meta representation (which roughly translated to one game vs burn per day for me).

I'll also mention that burn was not nerfed out of relevance and you may be disappointed tomorrow.

I've read this three times and I can't find a point. Are you refuting a made-up argument that aggro decks are the only kinds of decks that can be oppressive? Or that burn might be bad but don't complain because it could be worse? I literally have no clue what you are trying to say

Munkaboo
Aug 4, 2002

If you know the words, you can join in too
He's bigger! faster! stronger too!
He's the newest member of the Jags O-Line crew!


well I definitely suck at expedition. I drafted two unyielding spirits and the spell that doubles your health and power and got zero wins. Focus on the curve folks.

PJOmega
May 5, 2009


Munkaboo posted:

well I definitely suck at expedition. I drafted two unyielding spirits and the spell that doubles your health and power and got zero wins. Focus on the curve folks.

The health/power doubler feels awful in everything I've ever tried putting it in. A slow spell that targets one of your things needs to do a lot more than that and/or cost less than 6 Mana.

KazigluBey
Oct 30, 2011

boner



No Wave posted:

I'll also mention that burn was not nerfed out of relevance and you may be disappointed tomorrow.

I know, aggro is the roach of card game design and always finds a way. I'm sympathetic to people who use it to climb ladder as quickly and efficiently as possible, I just tremendously dislike seeing meta-tuned burn/aggro kicking about in Normal.

Also Hecarim got the nerfs he probably needed, and they'll hit Ez soon enough since everything that's ever been mentioned in one of their "We're keeping an eye on-" patchnote sections HAS been adjusted. As long as they keep aggro/burn under control too, I'm happy, even if I personally wish there was a way for me to play the game and never have to play a single match against it ever again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAkJ8w2a80Q


Locke Dunnegan posted:

I really wish this "people just want to OTK" bullshit as an argument against nerfing oppressively powerful fast decks would stop. It's literally came up in every thread or forum of every CCG I've played and it's always wrong.

I want to have minion combat with interesting decisions.

I want to have my life total be a resource that is also spent by my opponents depending on their own gameplan, but if most games end exclusively because my opponent could spend a single resource in a couple turns regardless of what I do, it's me just playing a game I lose constantly with no choice. That's not why I play games.

I swear to God I wouldn't be surprised if people saying this poo poo are people who are compulsively competitive and have a psychological dependence on playing as little of the game with as little interaction with other people as possible so they can be Best Nerd and so anything that reduces that makes them irrationally upset.

Or they just have differing opinions I dunno

EDIT: some words

100% agree.

Sloppy
Apr 25, 2003

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere.

Locke Dunnegan posted:



Or they just have differing opinions I dunno

EDIT: some words


Agree with all of this. Edit: oops not Hearthstone thread.

Sloppy fucked around with this message at 21:51 on May 26, 2020

uninverted
Nov 9, 2011


I don't like the greedy arms races that formats without a good aggro deck tend to turn into. But burn was a little over the line before the nerfs. I would prefer it if MF scouts or something along those was the aggro deck to beat.

Pilchenstein
May 17, 2012

So your plan is for half of us to die?


Hot Rope Guy

I was actually arguing that they should maybe nerf aggro and OTK stall because I prefer minion combat with interesting decisions, but go off chief

For what it's worth, I've been playing Bilgewater/SI almost exclusively on ladder.

kingcobweb
Apr 16, 2005

Tits and cooters, Mr Bond.


Needing burn was necessary, but I wish there was another aggro deck around other than burn. Everything else is midrange or slower.

Locke Dunnegan
Apr 25, 2005

Respectable Bespectacled Receptacle


Pilchenstein posted:

I was actually arguing that they should maybe nerf aggro and OTK stall because I prefer minion combat with interesting decisions, but go off chief

For what it's worth, I've been playing Bilgewater/SI almost exclusively on ladder.

Yeah I came back to it later and realized I kinda went off venting on something close enough to something that drives me up the goddamn wall. Sorry.

ShaneB
Oct 21, 2002



kingcobweb posted:

Needing burn was necessary, but I wish there was another aggro deck around other than burn. Everything else is midrange or slower.

Elusives doesn't suck. Neither do some aggressive demacia based decks.

OxMan
May 13, 2006

COME SEE
GRAVE DIGGER
LIVE AT MONSTER TRUCK JAM 2KXX





ShaneB posted:

Elusives doesn't suck. Neither do some aggressive demacia based decks.

I can't find a happy medium. I went from burn to a Lux Karma (homemade, everyone seemed to have their own spin on it so I made my own with lifesteal/elusives to survive early/mid to making them undying with a few safety recalls for countering the same (though a random created detain was what saved me from an invincible vi earlier). I'm having a lot of fun with it, it's a very reactive deck. Games also take 20 minutes now though. The only 2 games I've lost so far in casual play have been against burn and a sejuani deck against which I drew 3 judgements and 2 other 6 mana cards my first turns. It's fun but sometimes I just want to either finish a game in 6-8 turns or die trying.

mistaya
Oct 18, 2006

Cat of Wealth and Taste


Yeah it's hard for me to play control decks for long without doing some faster ones which is why I always liked having Elusives (in whatever incarnation) as a nice brain cleanser but OTK is 100% dead with stand alone at 4 and the burn nerfs were pretty brutal. Boomcrew Rookie definitely deserved it but a 3/1 can't block is a VERY bad card, it's not gonna do anything except die to vile feast and you can't tap it for transfusion or the deal 1 to a unit/2 to the nexus anymore either. I get that Teemo can pseudo-rep him but teemo's also 1 hp so has the same problems.

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Locke Dunnegan
Apr 25, 2005

Respectable Bespectacled Receptacle


I don't know what the gently caress happened with peoples' brains since the balance patch but I just played against seemingly the same Ashe/Sej Frel/Nox freeze midrange deck five times in a row. My lovely homebrew fizz/lee/tf slingers deck keeps stealing their buffed units and Ashe arrows which is funny and also makes me sad they didn't touch Pilfer, though I know it's on the docket. Yummy yummy arrows

EDIT: Using Return on a stolen Plaza Guardian is a 6/6 Quick Attack that summons at burst speed

Locke Dunnegan fucked around with this message at 03:05 on May 28, 2020

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