|
exmarx posted:show's good. sonoya mizuno was the best part of maniac, so i'm excited to see what she does in this. If you have a machine that can extrapolate particles' previous states from their current action and state you can already 'see' both forwards and backwards. It's not about creating a model that predicts the future, their machine already can see the future. This also makes it one of the most implausible sci-fi shows ever. If people wish to read more on the topic, it's basically this: Laplace's demon. Ham fucked around with this message at 14:57 on Mar 16, 2020 |
#
¿
Mar 16, 2020 14:53
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ Apr 29, 2024 11:53 |
|
|
OTC posted:My unspeakably lame guess for the final episode, to be made fun of in due course when I am horribly wrong: This is really not bad! My guess is similar, but that the events taking place in Devs are just the simulation (our universe, one of infinite simulations) running its course/requiring too much energy to keep going before it is terminated. Simulated by aliens, future humans, god, or otherwise.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 9, 2020 16:41
|
|
|
D-Pad posted:Yeah but the blurry stuff had no sounds. They only got the sound to work when they did multiverse. It really looks to me like Forest and Katie have something figured out the rest of the team doesn't. Blurry stuff definitely had sounds! They just got fuzzier along with the visual data the further you went back.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 9, 2020 21:09
|
|
|
From what they've shown on the show so far, both the Everett interpretation (many worlds) and the de Broglie–Bohm interpretation (one world governed by hidden non-local variables) are correct/compatible with each other. The Deus computer has limited computational capacity and is unable to model everything using de Broglie-Bohm (their computer would need to model every single quantum bit). The Everett interpretation somehow allows them to use a more limited set of data to create a much clearer, for our purposes random projection - the results can be very close to the world they're in, or very different since the computer is just guessing instead of calculating precisely what state particles are in - and each time they run the simulation will inevitably be different.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 9, 2020 21:19
|
|
|
DirtyRobot posted:A goon earlier in the thread mentioned that the show hasn't dealt with compatibilism, the idea that a deterministic universe and free will are compatible. At this point, I'm almost inclined to think that's intentional. Forest has his determinism thing — the "rails" — and is literally building a god machine to figure it out, but 5 minutes on Google would complicate that simple, binary, either/or answer he's going for. It would also complicate any of his and Katie's over-confident justifications for literal murder. As Stewart says, the dude can't even guess. He's just not interested. Both Katie and Forest, despite their intelligence, are pretty much Dunning-Kruger incarnate. Thankfully the show isn't even considering compatibilism because it's a horse-poo poo idea.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 12, 2020 01:22
|
|
|
Strange Matter posted:So is Katie lying when she says she believes that Many Worlds is the correct interpretation? Either way the Devs system seems to prove that Many Worlds is the truth of their reality anyway, so what Katie says to Lyndon is at least partially true; his consciousness continues to persist in the universes where he survives the experiment, or in the universes where he chooses not to climb over the rail at all, but those all deviate from the universe that the Devs system is simulating, because it is somehow *both* deterministic and multiversal. So as far as this iteration of Katie is concerned, Lyndon had no other outcome but death. Many worlds is strictly deterministic because it isn't random, and it doesn't literally mean "everything can happen". It's possible there are zero universes in which a Lyndon survives.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 14, 2020 20:41
|
|
|
CodeJanitor posted:Since they have used the machine, it is the observer, and therefore collapsed the possible outcomes into a single result causing the deterministic outcome in the future. While this sounds cool, it doesn't make sense for the story when the machine is also producing many-worlds predictions. Eitherway you cook it, the show doesn't agree with the tenets of the Copenhagen interpretation.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 15, 2020 07:19
|
|
|
Mameluke posted:Show was pretty but stupid the whole way through. Basically just a highbrow version of Westworld. Could done without that creepy six-storey doll though. Show went a lot further than something like Westworld in tackling its own philosophical themes, and it should be applauded for tackling one of the most difficult concepts in both science and philosophy, it just spectacularly dropped the ball at the end and decided to go "No, humans do actually have agency beyond the confines of the material world (a soul or whatever)", and that either Lily has such a powerful soul that she can materially affect her own decisions, or that the others were content in letting determinism guide them and all humans in the end have the kind of agency/choice that makes decisions truly their own. It's a very dumb ending for a very thoughtful show - but quite a good ride anyway.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 16, 2020 22:50
|
|
|
Fallom posted:Isn't the point that it's a matter of perspective? It's not that there could be zero universes in which Lyndon survives, it's that there could be zero universes in which Lyndon survives from Katie's perspective as she continues along one of her own paths. From Lyndon's perspective, he may have stepped back from the brink, seen Katie get hit by a bus, and continued life some other way that we're not shown because it's not his timeline we're following, it's some variation of Katie's or someone else's. The worlds where Katie is hit by a bus are so drastically different that we can safely discount them, same as worlds where for whatever reason Lyndon never applied to Amaya and still lives. What I meant was if you make Lyndon stepping on the edge of the dam your starting point, and consider that the many (not infinite) configurations of particles in the air and in his body are what will determine whether he lives or not, it's possible that from that starting position, all configurations lead to him falling. The possibility space in many worlds is not infinite.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 17, 2020 04:42
|
|
|
Tiggum posted:That is literally nonsense. Welcome to Alex Garland's Deus.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 19, 2020 13:21
|
|
|
ghostwritingduck posted:I think there's a way to interpret Lily's actions as deterministic and paradox causing. Deus was predicting that Lily would watch the simulation of her final moments and adjust her behavior as a result. User A seeing the future in a deterministic world wouldn't give you a paradox because that future was always predicated on User A seeing it. It's only a paradox because our minds can't square determinism with our conception of free will. Ham fucked around with this message at 13:33 on Apr 19, 2020 |
|
#
¿
Apr 19, 2020 13:29
|
|
|
ghostwritingduck posted:Write out how Lily observes a film of her watching the simulation and then contradicting the simulations prediction. Lily can't contradict the simulation except as follows: - Lily has a soul that isn't affected by causality or the laws of the universe, this soul object can magically affect the way she interacts with the universe around her. - The simulation is imperfect for whatever reason (lack of data on all sub-atomic particles / universal laws not accounted for) and as such gives off wrong predictions. - The universe is actually truly random as posited by the Copenhagen interpretation and the random prediction seen by Lily was useless. - All possible outcomes of subatomic particle interaction are realized in a world (many worlds), Lily just happened to see a divergent future prediction. Show picked that first one. To try and see it from another angle, replace Lily with a computer. If the computer sees its code running 5 seconds ahead, it will interpret the code in a very specific manner according to its design and software that will inevitably lead to running that exact code 5 seconds later. The computer has no choice in the matter. Ham fucked around with this message at 14:04 on Apr 19, 2020 |
|
#
¿
Apr 19, 2020 13:59
|
|
|
grate deceiver posted:The universe is still deterministic, it's just that Forrest is completely wrong and Deus doesn't accurately predict it, because it can't account for people changing their mind based on the machine's predictions, because it sends it into an infinite loop. Lily didn't violate any laws of nature or determinism, she just found a fault in the machine. But there is no infinite loop involved since the machine is capable of simulating itself over and over again as seen with Stewart and the other devs 2 episodes prior. The machine doesn't make false predictions because it also factors in Lily seeing the outcome on the machine and acting based on that. For all intents and purposes the machine seems to have infinite power and is fine simulating a simulation within the simulation to reach the inevitable outcome. There aren't multiple frames of reference where Lily either sees the outcome or doesn't, Lily always sees the machine and always acts a certain way in response. That explanation is also against the entire message of the show unless that message is "the universe is completely deterministic and you don't have free will but at least you can't predict it".
|
|
#
¿
Apr 19, 2020 23:49
|
|
|
Cojawfee posted:If you go in with the intention of not doing what it shows you, it can't show you what you are actually going to do. If it shows you flipping the bird, and then after seeing that, you decide you'll put your hand in your pocket, the machine can't go back in time and actually show you putting your hand in your pocket. It can't take everything into account if you decide not to follow its calculation. There's no way for it to show you what it calculates will happen and then for you to think you're doing the opposite but actually doing what it predicted. Particles don't have a choice about their interactions based on stimuli, what you're proposing is literally magic or randomness. It's funny but randomness is actually the mainstream interpretation of quantum mechanics which the show completely ignores.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 20, 2020 00:04
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ Apr 29, 2024 11:53 |
|
|
Tiggum posted:A deterministic universe is contrary to our perception of reality, but that doesn't actually mean it has to be wrong. This isn't entirely true, it's just contrary to our conception of self. Our perception of reality quite easily accepts that event A causes event B, it's just unintuitive to apply that to ourselves as well as the world around us so people rarely do so.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 20, 2020 06:31
|
|