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Hal Incandenza posted:Taste/DBD/beet perhaps? That seems too obvious but it did flash through my head when I made that post last night saying the game was coming together.
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Jul 17, 2020 17:49
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I think Spoonsy and JX setup that “messenger” claim to draw heat from Spoonsy. It’s right there in the case I made. Time stamps way too close from the bus to the claim, JX getting the fifth vote down, etc.
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Jul 17, 2020 17:50
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Hal Incandenza posted:Am I lying about my role or do you just think I’m the scum JOAT? I couldn’t say, either are possible. Asking town to reflect and assess strategy of unflipped scum is a ludicrous setup. Scum do strange things for reasons and distilling that is impossible.
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Jul 17, 2020 17:52
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merk posted:A scum joat with a gunsmith in a game with a masonry of killers and an arsonist isn’t that far fetched though. The simpler explanation is that it’s bullshit
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Jul 17, 2020 17:53
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Merk, Hal’s explicitly trying to buddy up to you here If he was actually interested in hunting scum and believed spoonsy’s results he’d giving you a much harder look than “buys my claim? Gotta be hambeet”
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Jul 17, 2020 17:55
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t a s t e posted:Merk, Hal’s explicitly trying to buddy up to you here I have never said that I said it seems more likely if the claim is true. Buddying up to me isn't really a thing merk needs to do, I could buy he is trying to buy some cred after my town flip though. Still think he has no need to make the effort to go back through my posting if he is scum though, just let me get finished off quietly
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Jul 17, 2020 18:02
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Hal Incandenza posted:Taste/DBD/beet perhaps? Both Taste and DBD cleared NGO, so I thought maybe Taste/DBD/NGO, but it sheds no light on the eccocop result. If your track is true, why does DBD lie to verify NGO's roll claim if NGO is actually town?
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Jul 17, 2020 18:03
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t a s t e posted:The simpler explanation is that it’s bullshit His play doesn’t seem like it’s bullshit at all.
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Jul 17, 2020 18:05
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t a s t e posted:Merk, Hal’s explicitly trying to buddy up to you here Hal doesn’t need to buddy up to me after I spent fifteen minutes writing a big explanation for why I believe him and then in the next post vote Spoonsy. What the hell is going on here? It’s like you’re purposely not reading.
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Jul 17, 2020 18:07
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I am not even going to bother arguing with taste though, he's either scum or for some reason has decided not to analyze anything and is tunneled on me but I think scum is more likely. I am out of powers so if I die today that is fine, it will sort of clear sandwolf for the rest of you at least If it IS me though, PLEASE look at DBD tomorrow Look at all the scum smoke around him... N1 he claims to have visited Tokes, is seen at the scene of Jen's murder, comes out with an alignment-neutral claim but somehow didn't pay enough attention to his own role to understand how his results would have worked with Jen Today he claims to have visited a role that was already public, chose to use his power on someone who's role was also alignment neutral (scum bodyguard is very plausible in a game with a known non-scum NK) instead of using it to confirm the claimed cop AND potentially get an extra cop result (much more likely to be useful than an extra bodyguard). And of course I tracked him going nowhere, the second time in the game someone has contradicted his claim. Sure, N1 he could have been redirected and N3 I could have been redirected. But if I was redirected, why would scum redirect me who hadn't claimed anything over a cop, a rolecop who copies roles and a JOAT with an unknown power? So I doubt I was redirected, and if I was it's because some of these other roles are actually scum.
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Jul 17, 2020 18:10
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Sub Rosa posted:Both Taste and DBD cleared NGO, so I thought maybe Taste/DBD/NGO, but it sheds no light on the eccocop result. If your track is true, why does DBD lie to verify NGO's roll claim if NGO is actually town? He has to say he did something last night and verifying a known role is a safe thing to do. Or I really was redirected, scum DBD copied a bodyguard role for his team and figured he would clear NGO for cred. We still don't know who killed Jen (unless it was somehow pera) so I have a very hard time believing none of spoonsy/taste/DBD are scum.
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Jul 17, 2020 18:13
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Lol at the idea of scum not trying to condition town because town don’t currently have a vote on them
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Jul 17, 2020 18:13
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merk posted:A scum joat with a gunsmith in a game with a masonry of killers and an arsonist isn’t that far fetched though. Unless you think everyone in the masonry was town and Jen X's roll was hosed with, scum already knew who the members were, so wouldn't need to gunsmith them. And if they were all town, who would know and be able to send Spoonsy the message about who the members were? Spoonsy either knew because he is scum or because scum sent him a message I think, and my thought on why scum would send that message was more that Spoonsy suddenly coming out with strange information when already having the vote piling on could draw more votes to Spoonsy. At least it did seem to heighten the growing suspicion for a moment anyway, and if the members hadn't all verified the claim I think Spoonsy could have went down D1. But since there have been no more messages, maybe Spoonsy is just scum. Also the "Hum, no I meant DBD" stuff could be read as just making stuff up and then realizing that Hum visited pera not Jen X and needing to make up why you hosed up like that. But I really am reminded of how Spoonsy was told that he saw someone at the door of someone who was killed in Harry Potter because scum made him see that, and brought that to town with no skepticism at all, even though it was very clearly outside of and flavored differently than his water roll. Which is why my first response to Spoonsy posting the list and accepting it at face value gave me the initial reaction that the list could be a lie, because I would expect Spoonsy to accept a lie at face value.
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Jul 17, 2020 18:15
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*trembling* I just can’t even engage with the one person seriously pushing my terrible claim... it’s simply tunneling to be pressured on my wildly suspicious behavior today... Just ask wise, proud, intelligent merk, he’ll vouch for me
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Jul 17, 2020 18:16
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I hate to break it to you Rosa but the dead aren’t coordinating anything. It’s the living that don’t know what they’re doing and the game is all the more complicated in that some people in this mess are town and just refusing to let the scales drop from their eyes
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Jul 17, 2020 18:18
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Hal Incandenza posted:why would scum redirect me who hadn't claimed anything over a cop, a rolecop who copies roles and a JOAT with an unknown power? So I doubt I was redirected, and if I was it's because some of these other roles are actually scum. 
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Jul 17, 2020 18:20
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t a s t e posted:*trembling* We can keep engaging but I doubt I will come up with anything to break the cycle of you responding this way so it seems pointless...?
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Jul 17, 2020 18:20
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Hal Incandenza posted:We can keep engaging but I doubt I will come up with anything to break the cycle of you responding this way so it seems pointless...? You haven’t actually responded to my answering your questions. It’s like you didn’t actually want responses, just to call me scummy for pushing you
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Jul 17, 2020 18:22
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At this point I could lean towards thinking Spoonsy could be lying and all three people in the eccocop are town. But I don't know why scum Spoonsy would put taste and DBD at the scene of the murder if they are scum buddies.
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Jul 17, 2020 18:27
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t a s t e posted:You haven’t actually responded to my answering your questions. It’s like you didn’t actually want responses, just to call me scummy for pushing you t a s t e posted:I couldn’t say, either are possible. Uhhhh ok Asking town to reflect on unflipped unknown alignment is perfectly fair Your response is worthless because it shows you have decided I am scum and aren't going to consider how it would fit with town play. What is the point with engaging more with you when all I can do is say here is my role, here are my results, here are things in my play that lend credence to the results I gave. Here are the people I think are scum I have nothing else to give you taste, you have all the info.
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Jul 17, 2020 18:28
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Sub Rosa posted:At this point I could lean towards thinking Spoonsy could be lying and all three people in the eccocop are town. He wouldn’t, and we aren’t, and to suggest that he would and we are is just throwing poo poo against the wall to see what seems compelling and save one’s skin
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Jul 17, 2020 18:29
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Hal Incandenza posted:Uhhhh Asking town to wifom why a player would choose to do X or Y as scum is an unanswerable trap question because town doesn’t have the scope of the board scum does. No amount of pussyfooting around that changes the inherent principle Your very question asks me to consider why *you, as scum* might do something and then you frame me considering *you, as scum* as being unreasonable
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Jul 17, 2020 18:31
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t a s t e posted:He wouldn’t, and we aren’t Right, so if Spoonsy isn't your scum buddy, which of the three in the eccocop is? hambeet?
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Jul 17, 2020 18:37
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Sub Rosa posted:Right, so if Spoonsy isn't your scum buddy, which of the three in the eccocop is? hambeet? None of these people are my scum buddy, as I’m not scum. I don’t understand your hypothetical
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Jul 17, 2020 18:39
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t a s t e posted:Asking town to wifom why a player would choose to do X or Y as scum is an unanswerable trap question because town doesn’t have the scope of the board scum does. No amount of pussyfooting around that changes the inherent principle I think it's fair to ask you (which is what the original question was) that if you think I am a scum gunsmith then do you think it is likely I would go out of my way to try and clear sandwolf D2. It's also (imho) done in a way that it would be a breadcrumb post-flip. If you think I am 100% lying about my role than my question was moot but I want you on record saying which way you feel about that. Anything anyone does or says in the game could be done as scum or town. Part of our job is sometimes to assess the likelihood that that action would be done by scum/town, especially with claims. Is whatever else you think I have done SO SCUMMY on balance that the high likelihood if I really am a gunsmith (joat) that I am a town gunsmith by the way that claim played out and my posting happened can just be written off as "well you can't ask me what scum would do here". I'm not even saying that it should clear me, I am saying you don't seem to even consider I could be telling the truth there and analyzing what happened. Instead you are saying "I have decided you are scum, asking me to look at your play and see if it would have scum motivation is pointless, because I have already decided" Do you even want to be convinced I am not scum? Because how I am going to do it is showing how my play lines up with what town would do and you saying "well scum can do anything town does" doesn't give me much to work with. I made my points, you have disagreed with them, I said ok, moving on, and you are suddenly acting like I am running from you. Where can this conversation go that will be helpful to this game?
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Jul 17, 2020 18:43
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You know if taste and hambeet are scumbuddies, taste claiming a town cop on Solus, an Solus recruiting hambeet suddenly looks really bad. And Solus being really mad that taste was submitted as the night kill.
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Jul 17, 2020 18:47
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I want you to hunt scum, Hal, not try to stay alive
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Jul 17, 2020 18:48
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Sub Rosa posted:You know if taste and hambeet are scumbuddies, taste claiming a town cop on Solus, an Solus recruiting hambeet suddenly looks really bad. And Solus being really mad that taste was submitted as the night kill. You don’t even have a single flip among these players and you’re planning out a threefold chain lynch Surely you can see why this is bad play
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Jul 17, 2020 18:49
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t a s t e posted:I want you to hunt scum, Hal, not try to stay alive I have been doing that between having to respond to your attacks. Sorry if my conclusion was that you were one of the scum. BUT I"M WILLING TO LISTEN
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Jul 17, 2020 18:50
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Hal Incandenza posted:I have been doing that between having to respond to your attacks. Sorry if my conclusion was that you were one of the scum. Omgus isn’t scumhunting
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Jul 17, 2020 18:50
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Idk maybe I’m exasperated by this struggle but can we take a closer look at the player who has voted today based on the unfounded speculation that dead players are coordinating a kill, and also that no matter what information is presented about me or any other person that I’m scum because of it
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Jul 17, 2020 18:52
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t a s t e posted:You don’t even have a single flip among these players and you’re planning out a threefold chain lynch Lol, come on man, that's a stretch even for you this game It's a slightly silly theory, but it's no different than anyone naming three scum choices right now
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Jul 17, 2020 18:52
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Hal Incandenza posted:Lol, come on man, that's a stretch even for you this game It’s absolutely different, because there’s no independent assessment of scummy play. The accusation is contingent on theorized relationships between the players with no textual support
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Jul 17, 2020 18:54
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There’s a distinct difference, for example, between “Hal is scum for his claim and behavior, merk is scum because he’s refused to systematically engage with the game and just pops in and out with observations that don’t drive play, sub Rosa is scum because of their strange theories and refusal to drop off the cop” and “sub Rosa, merk, and Hal are probably scumbuddies based on the way they’re driving attention away from Hal as scum today”
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Jul 17, 2020 18:56
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t a s t e posted:Idk maybe I’m exasperated by this struggle but can we take a closer look at the player who has voted today based on the unfounded speculation that dead players are coordinating a kill, and also that no matter what information is presented about me or any other person that I’m scum because of it Lol I have lost track of who you are talking about now, t a s t e posted:It’s absolutely different, because there’s no independent assessment of scummy play. The accusation is contingent on theorized relationships between the players with no textual support Still not the same as advocating for a chain-lynch though, you are really pushing things to the extreme today t a s t e posted:Omgus isn’t scumhunting Sigh. I am allowed to look at how you are pushing me (and others) today and conclude that your motivations are scummy without it being OMGUS. I have been clear that I think you are arguing in bad faith all over the place today, your push on me just highlighted it for me.
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Jul 17, 2020 18:56
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Note I am not offering those as serious accusations, merely as illustration as the difference between what sub Rosa is suggesting and just having multiple scumreads
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Jul 17, 2020 18:57
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t a s t e posted:There’s a distinct difference, for example, between “Hal is scum for his claim and behavior, merk is scum because he’s refused to systematically engage with the game and just pops in and out with observations that don’t drive play, sub Rosa is scum because of their strange theories and refusal to drop off the cop” and “sub Rosa, merk, and Hal are probably scumbuddies based on the way they’re driving attention away from Hal as scum today” Right but neither of those is saying "let's kill these three people next no matter what as long as they keep flipping scum" and I feel like sub rosa's theorizing isn't as demonic as you are making it out be
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Jul 17, 2020 18:59
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Hal Incandenza posted:Lol I have lost track of who you are talking about now, It’s Rosa Yeah, I guess “chain lynch” isn’t the best way of describing it, but “putting cart tremendously before horse” was already broached d2 and the train hasn’t slowed down now, which makes me think it’s no accident You think I’m arguing in “bad faith” (meaningless catchphrase for mafia and now politics arguments here) precisely *because* I’m calling you a liar
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Jul 17, 2020 18:59
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Hal Incandenza posted:Right but neither of those is saying "let's kill these three people next no matter what as long as they keep flipping scum" and I feel like sub rosa's theorizing isn't as demonic as you are making it out be It’s like the third time they’ve tried to do this. Maybe I’m the only one who’s noticed because it’s always me
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Jul 17, 2020 19:00
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Trying to notice how people are playing in relation to each other is.... bad? Trying to figure out if people look like they could or could not be scum buddies is... scummy? No, no I don't think that's right.
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Jul 17, 2020 19:02
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