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We don't know if that's necessary. It's just speculation.
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Sep 13, 2020 04:48
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jokes posted:Like 8 pages ago they talked about how Zodiark and Hydaelyn aren’t evil and that got me thinking. Who actually is evil in FFXIV? Gaius is/was a misguided fascist making amends, he’s close. Zenos is so aloof the concept of villainy doesn’t even enter his brain, enough he might not be considered an actual person. Nidhogg is also a misguided dude, but is seeking revenge against innocents for a justifiably heinous sleight. Even the progenitors of Ishgard who stole the dragons’ eyes probably had a solid, justifiable, and understandable reason to be assholes. Probably something about a Cold War with dragons if their alliance ever shifted so they needed to be prepared. Gaius? Willing and preparing to genocide beast tribes. Evil. Zenos? Just basic evil. Comically so. Nidhogg? Attempting to genocide an entire civilization in retaliation for something that happened hundreds of generations prior. Evil. King Thordan the First and his knights? Murdered a friend and ally out of cold blood and for power. Evil. Orcs and Ostriches fucked around with this message at 16:06 on Sep 14, 2020 |
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Sep 14, 2020 16:01
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I don't think anyone in game is evil just for the enjoyment of it, except maybe Zenos. But other than him, the other characters have motivations, and hell, even positive qualities. But promoting genocide and the like I think still fully puts one into the evil circle. Maybe the other Garleans don't mind due to their perspective? But I'm pretty confident in saying nah, that's evil. There's no grey area there. jokes posted:Which is more a question of relative morality because to him he was betrayed yesterday. Midgardsormr was like "I mean, yeah, but also gently caress that dude" which resolved that question I guess. Even then, he's punishing people only tangentially related to the initial crime. If he murdered a generation of Ishgardians and hosed off? Justice was served I guess. Instead he's still out there waging war on people that don't even know the crime that was committed. Just because Nidhogg lives so much longer, and still carries that grief, in no way excuses him from murdering more people completely innocent in the situation.
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Sep 14, 2020 16:24
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He knows about the Ascians guiding things, but I don't think he knows Solus was a meat puppet being driven around by an Ascian.
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Sep 14, 2020 19:29
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I could do with an FFXIV remake of Zeromus's theme.
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Sep 14, 2020 22:17
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Cleretic posted:Sometime last year I put a bunch of XIV villains onto the old-school D&D alignment grid (which I think is awful, but it helped me make my point to tabletop nerds) to show the breadth of villains the game's got, and a lot of those 'evil secondary antagonists' are the real the game's got just a TON of Lawful Evil bad guys. XIV really loves its assholes who know how to play politics. D&D alignment charts are half meaningless, like you point out, but there's nothing good about Ilberd. By the time he was enacting his plan, he cared nothing about Ala Mhigo or Eorzea; he wanted everyone to suffer like he did in a new calamity.
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Sep 15, 2020 17:14
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Emet-Selch was responsible for Allag. Whether he had anything to do with second gen Allag resurrecting Xande and going on a warpath is unknown, but he might have been poking Amon in that direction. I don't think the Ascians have much love for the dragons. They're probably just seen as useful tools if anything.
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Sep 15, 2020 23:03
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Just to be pedantic, Midgardsomr's world is still there, just rendered uninhabitable to some extent. Ishgardian Astrologians use it to predict the movements of the dravanian horde.
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Sep 16, 2020 19:39
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Pretty sure that was just Omega, or at the very least the war against it left it that way.
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Sep 16, 2020 19:49
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quote:Yet immutable as the laws He has woven may seem, they will not serve to forestall our doom. quote:Yet it is plain they will not countenance a permanent solution. Seems pretty clear they don't think Zodiark's rewriting the laws of reality are enough of a solution, and they're not permanent. They don't say anything about Zodiark being worse, or Zodiark leading to new problems.
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Sep 22, 2020 19:08
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Sinteres posted:When has it ever been suggested that Hydaelyn did anything other than counter Zodiark though? And the sundering of course, but I always wondered if that was actually the cost of summoning her and not just a side effect of her battle with Zodiark. The sundering fundamentally changed existence, likely far more than Zodiark's work did. It probably goes well beyond just defeating Zodiark and more into a long term solution for life.
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Sep 22, 2020 19:38
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gently caress Gaius tbh. The thing he loves is destroying the thing he loves, and that's the best result for an unrepentant fascist.
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Dec 4, 2020 20:19
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I don't really care what he believes of his empire. They left their subjugated neighbors in ruins, and have gone far past securing a safe and prosperous position for his native people. Nobody's blaming them for defending themselves, but what they've done past is inexcusable and he has no remorse for it.
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Dec 4, 2020 21:04
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I didn't mean to imply you were, but he still does, even after all the destruction the empire wrought, Gaius still sees it as right. He has some personal grief about his children dieing. It's not because he and the system he worked for turned them into zealots for their cause; just the loss of a child. And he's angry that the Ascians were manipulating the empire. He doesn't care what the Ascians made them do, merely that it wasn't a Garlean on top, because he's more or less fine with their deeds and directions. I don't see any attempt at remorse or repentance in his character. He's still a imperialist fascist; just one that currently shares a common cause with us.
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Dec 4, 2020 21:25
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Chillgamesh posted:This could get really I don't think it was the Meracydians. I don't know their timeline perfectly, but Garleans would have originated in Othard / the Far East, in ancient Ivalice. They were driven northward by the other Othardian and Ilsabardian countries. I'm not sure there was much contact at all with Meracydia until the second age of the Allagans came about. Entire eras in the past either way. Orcs and Ostriches fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Dec 4, 2020 |
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Dec 4, 2020 21:31
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really fast if we compare them to real life groups, so I'd like to avoid that. What I will say is that wasn't it the Meracydians who drove them to Ilsabard, and Emet-Selch who introduced them to Magitek? While the Empire may have been good to an average Garlean, that person would have died centuries prior to the game's setting. They're just supremacists at this point.
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Ivalice was probably post 4th calamity, or contemporary with early Allag. I don't think there's a definitive answer on their exact timeline. Either way, I don't think it really affects either of them all that much. It just probably wasn't the Meracydians that pushed them up north into the current Garlean homeland.
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Dec 4, 2020 21:46
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Yeah. This thread should be open season, no spoiler tags.
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Dec 4, 2020 23:19
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Cleretic posted:no, the story has sided with the fascist even more-or-less directly after they murdered someone on our side). Is this something else you've made up or misread?
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Dec 5, 2020 05:03
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Cleretic posted:Regulus and Ysayle. It's hard to determine exactly how much time is 'supposed' to have passed between him killing her and the Warring Triad storyline where he's on our side, but in terms of his screentime, he gets basically no space between those points to either continue being an antagonist or to endear us to him otherwise. The story never sided with Regulus. He saw his folly at the end and died. He was still as much an antagonist as Gaius.
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Dec 5, 2020 05:42
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Regulus is from heavensward, in Azys Lla, and in the Warring Triad quests. He dies fighting Zurvan.
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Dec 5, 2020 05:50
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Yeah, Gaius thinks the genocide of anyone that summons primals is A-OK. At the time it was only beast tribes, but we know that's not the case. He'd prefer to subjugate and indoctrinate, but death is fine for the rest.
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Dec 5, 2020 22:42
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Nidhogg and Yotsuyu are both evil for evil’s sake. In Nidhogg’s case, everyone even slightly responsible for the death of his sister are dead. Their children are dead. Their children are dead. Their children are dead. He’s just killing innocent people with nothing to do with it, and had been for generations. Yotsuyu is just obsessed with Doma’s suffering. Nobody in Isari had anything to do with her life, or have any influence on the way Doma had been or is currently run. Yet she still goes to town and will kill and torture peasants. She just wants people to suffer.
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Dec 6, 2020 18:20
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Yes they are. Any perceived justice is long gone. Nidhogg has no other reason to perpetuate the war, and Yotsuyu is just bullying the weakest members of society. Compare this to the others. Gaius truly believes he's bringing good into the lives and society of the others. The Ascians are trying to restore their home. Neither Nidhogg or especially Yotsuyu have any notions of justice or good in their actions. They know, as much as Nidhogg has the capacity for rationality, that what they're doing is wrong. Orcs and Ostriches fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Dec 6, 2020 |
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Dec 6, 2020 18:47
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cock hero flux posted:Both of them are seeking revenge. Justified revenge, even, but they've expanded their scope beyond the people who individually wronged them to include their entire countries and in doing so ended up hurting countless people who were completely innocent and undeserving. In Nidhogg's case I think he's genuinely unable to understand or accept that the revenge he's obsessed with obtaining is conceptually impossible. I don't think he's at all rational about it, and in his immortal mindset he seems to believe that all of his actions are completely justified. In Yotsuyu's case she seems to understand that what she's doing is evil, and she doesn't care. She's beyond anything but hating people and wanting them to suffer. I can concede Nidhogg at this point because his mind is so far gone, but quote:She's beyond anything but hating people and wanting them to suffer. is pretty textbook for evil's sake.
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Dec 6, 2020 19:10
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Nobody is expected to kill peasants for no reason in Zenos's Ala Mhigo. And I doubt Zenos cares at all what she does to them. She's taking out (her legitimate grievances) on completely unrelated people that basically border on her situation. And enjoys it.
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Dec 6, 2020 19:20
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:"Completely unrelated people?" One of the characters you encounter in Doma is specifically Yotsuyu's former pimp, specifically to drive home the narrative point that a revolutionary state does not emerge from a vacuum but is built on the pieces of the old, and deciding that you are working towards liberation does not absolve you of your previous sins. Yeah, but that pimp wasn't a starving fisherman in some backwater village. The fact a prominent member of society like that is still alive by the time the revolution came about shows she didn't much care to take revenge against the people and institutions that wronged her. Nor is she interested in doing anything regarding systematic oppression. She just wants to cause people to suffer. And yes, she's doing it to survive, as ImpAtom is saying; but she's doing it also because she enjoys it. Orcs and Ostriches fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Dec 6, 2020 |
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Dec 6, 2020 19:49
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CYBEReris posted:Yeah let's not forget that Hraesvelgr may not have bloodied his own hands but when he had the choice to deny his brother vengeance he instead became complicit by surrendering his own eye I don't think his choice was that easy. He could have denied Nidhogg his vengeance by denying the eye, but Nidhogg would have died. It was more the choice of saving his brother's life at that moment, especially that shortly after the death of his sister. And Nidhogg's revenge was still, I'd say, legitimate at the time
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Dec 7, 2020 00:34
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That would be great. He gets a big arc. 5.3 comes around and he gets a new life and uniform. 5.4 comes around and he gets Haurchefaunted.
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Dec 7, 2020 22:21
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Jetrauben posted:DON'T YOU DARE PUT THIS OUT INTO THE WORLD Yeah I’m not ready for any of the cast to die. I can’t see it happening.
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Dec 7, 2020 23:32
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Hah, I never even made that connection.
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Dec 9, 2020 02:48
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Badger of Basra posted:So the cutscene where Ryne calls her Gaia and Mitron says to not to dare use that name but if you must call her something use the name her parents gave her. Does that mean every Ascian has three names? Gaia has a name her biological parents in Eulmore gave her, and we don't know what that it. Loghrif is her convocation title, like Emet Selch, and Gaia is her true name, like Hades. All of the sundered would have three names for similar reasons.
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Dec 9, 2020 05:35
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Next time someone's doing the new dungeon, you should look around the final boss arena and check out the detailing on the book shelves.
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Dec 9, 2020 06:15
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Darth Walrus posted:How does the Eden's Promise 1 mechanic with the tethers and the circles of gunk work? I always eat vuln stacks from that. I think the vine is like Titania’s, where you have to run a certain distance before it breaks. If you run away when it’s just the line tether, you can get so far away you don’t have the necessary distance to get that range. I always get close when it’s the tether and then the vine snaps easy.
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Dec 9, 2020 16:59
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FeatherFloat posted:Fancy Dan being a world-ending nihilist is sort of unusual, if you stop and think about it for a moment? I mean, he's an Ascian, and Ascians should be tempered by Zodiark, and should probably not want to just end everything? And he has apparently not been on board with his superior's plans for a while now. What the hell is up with him to make him your standard Final Fantasy "gently caress reality and everyone in it, including me" baddie? Dan was sundered, and had his memories implanted into a new host body. There's no real indication that tempering his OG body/soul would persist past death.
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Dec 9, 2020 18:40
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Yeah, he's sundered. But Mitron seems more invested with his memories of Loghrif, and sharing their lives together again. The rejoining would help with that. I think for the most part, getting a bunch of memories of when you were an powerful immortal living in some ancient utopia would be all the motivation a sundered ascian needs to strive for the rejoining. Kinda seems like the implanted memories overwrite the host's as well, making that strive even more unimpeded. I'd theorize that the soul gets reset / rebalanced whenever it's reused from the lifestream. Otherwise you'd have all sorts of weird stuff happening like people being born tempered in Eorzea. And part of this patch was using memories as a tool to cleanse tempering, if the soul was clean, the memories should keep them at a stable, untempered spot.
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Dec 9, 2020 19:22
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Yeah there's definitely some base identity retained in the soul. We could use Azem's stone. Ardbert was recognized as part of the same soul. And Mitron could still recognize Loghrif despite being reborn. There seems to be some amount of personality retained, too. Azem, Ardbert, and the WoL are all known for travelling and forming bonds and groups. Mitron said Loghrif was always forgetful.
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Dec 9, 2020 19:35
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One of the big 2.x revelations was that the main Ascians at the time, like Lahabrea, pull themselves back together if their soul is intact; killing their body is a minor inconvenience since they could just echo away and either take a new one, or just reform it. Thordan destroyed Lahabrea's soul, and we did the same of Emet-Selch. Elidibus's was a snack for the Crystal Tower. Nabriales and Igeyohrm had to be locked in place with white auracite, just so we could hit them with Tupsimati and an Eye of Nidhogg respectively, to destroy that shard of their soul. It still takes a big hit to take out a convocation member, a bigger one still to take out an Ascian prime. Mitron/Loghrif got smashed up. Loghrif's body died, but her soul didn't. Mitron's body absorbed all that light aether, and became Eden. Orcs and Ostriches fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Dec 9, 2020 |
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Dec 9, 2020 21:20
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Jetrauben posted:I got the impression Gaia/Loghrif properly died when Ardbert gibbed her and Loghrif, it's just soul memories linger between incarnations. Physically Gaia died, but if her soul was destroyed like with the rest of them, there wouldn't be a Gaia soul fragment in a new life on the First.
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Dec 9, 2020 21:25
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Jetrauben posted:That's what I'm not sure about. I don't think you can Cessation of Existence a soul, you can just kill it hard enough it gets fed back into the reincarnation cycle This was an explicit point in the 2.x / 3.x Ascian kills. An Ascian soul in the lifestream can reform itself, and they needed to be irreparably destroyed to finally deal with them. Hence containing their aether in the white auracite, and then destroying it with something well beyond the WoL at the time - Tupsimati or an Eye of Nidhogg.
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Dec 9, 2020 21:28
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Jetrauben posted:I recall that, yes, but as noted Emet clearly exists as an entity post true death in the Lifestream. Does he? His little parting gift may have just been a farewell imprinted into the stone. I don't think there's anything showing any part of Emet-Selch still exists as an intact, or even a collection sundered souls. And the particle effects when he dies are unconvincing.
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Dec 9, 2020 21:32
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