The Caribbean: privatizing the canary in the coal mine

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > The Caribbean: privatizing the canary in the coal mine

cool dance moves: Aug 27, 2018

bagual posted:

Re: Puerto Rico, the brazilian left calls this type of self-subordinating attitude Mutt Syndrome, our mental image of ourselves and our countries as colonized peoples is something like a stray dog, hungry weak and flea-ridden when compared to the firstworld big dogs. This cultural-political identity is then weaponized by local corrupt elites subservient to global capital when they sell the country's assets, if we're all corrupt weak morons might as well let the gringos buy poo poo up and pay us pennies to take away the resources since we're too dumb poor and lazy to exploit them ourselves. Also great for suppresion of alternatives, "these social programs might work in the first world but here the culture is bad and corrupt" and so on. Third world capitalists also see themselves as inferior, hence why hardly any private institution invests into poo poo that brings the real money like technology, they're content paying low wages and churning low quality low complexity products for low profits because in their minds that's the only thing a poor market could afford (and probably deserves). We all need a bit more of collective self-confidence to destroy this obviously wrong self-perception, pleas raise your arms up and send your energy to goku

The only real way out of subservience is taking power away from all imperial collaborators and getting the government to invest heavily in infrastructure and a high-tech but a loooot less than that guarantees you coups and embargos and general death. Never forget that the first world got their insane accumulated wealth not because they were better people but because they were worse, killing raping and pillaging worldwide for literal centuries. Latin american countries hosed over their own populations to hell and back but never anything on the same level of sheer pain and despair as what colonizer empires inflicted on humankind as a whole.

The Caribbean! Surf, sand, sunburned tourists, a veritable paradise!

hahahahahaha no

The Caribbean is in a rough patch. Well, when has it not? This thread is for discussing all topics Caribbean. This includes Cuba, Hispaniola, Puerto Rico, Jamaica, the Virgin Islands, and the Lesser Antilles.

Right now, the Caribbean is marked by corruption, ecological crisis, infrastructural collapse, and chronic poverty. In many ways, it sums up the evolution of the global economy rather neatly; however, we also can't treat the Caribbean as one big bloc. For better or for worse, we are a kaleidoscope of different communities. Myself, I can speak to some extent on Puerto Rico. However, I urge the reader to take everything I say with a grain of salt; I'm only one guy. My views, my opinions, my thoughts will never represent the totality of the Puerto Rican community--whether they stayed on the island or went abroad.

With that in mind, I'm going to present some thoughts on Puerto Rico specifically. Some of these are mine, others come courtesy of goons whose insights inspired this thread. Fellow goons are more than welcome to chime in with their own observations

BRIEF ECONOMIC HISTORY
Once upon a time, a bunch of guys were hanging out on an island just bein' dudes: fishing, living in huts, fending off the occasional Carib raids, just generally having a chill time. Then some lispy assholes in iron armor showed up and made everybody sick. A couple of massacres and some rebellions later, and this island--Borinquen, main island of the Puerto Rican archipelago--ended up being a hub for Spanish activity in the Caribbean, with an economy based on agriculture. Fast foward a little longer, the Americans show up in 1898, and American sugar companies gear the economy towards sugarcane cultivation generally. Turns out, monoculture is not a stable model. So in the 50s, hand-in-hand with increased governmental autonomy, the Puerto Rican government puts into place an ambitious program of economic restructuring. No longer would the poor peasant j�baro have to labor in the hot sun! No longer would our roads be made of mud! Homes were going to have electricity, running water! Public education! The works! We were gonna get some industry going, baby! Prosperity city, here we come!

And for a hot second, it worked. But then...a funny thing happened. American capitalism--and global capitalism in general--started making GBS threads itself in the 70s. Well that can't be good. What followed was a spiral of deinsdustrialization and privatization that frankly should be pretty familiar to us all: under the constant need of the Number to go up, and the inability of capitalism to better exploit existing markets, new markets had to be created. Neoliberalism was--and is --the name of the game.

That brings us to today. In 2016, President Barfsack Obungler signed PROMESA. Forums poster Declan MacManus summed it up very well:

Declan MacManus posted:

so, in 2014, puerto rico saw its bonds downgraded to junk status, which meant that it was no longer able to sell bonds in the open market and since there�s no income tax on residents because puerto rico was gutted into a libertarian tax shelter hellscape, a major source of puerto rican revenue went �poof� overnight. the obama administration passed PROMESA in 2016 to stem the bleeding by restructuring puerto rico�s already massive pre-2014 debt (which is mostly held by private investors natch) and appointing a fiscal control board (fcb or la junta as my grandpa calls it) to enact a financial plan for 2017-2026; naturally, the core of their plan was giant loving austerity cuts and prioritizing paying off puerto rico�s debts

in 2017 fcb basically asked to declare bankruptcy as the island was $123b in debt with no way out because they couldn�t sell bonds and the government was either unwilling or unable to pass income tax reform; anyways that was like four hurricanes and two earthquakes ago

so! we�ll skip ahead past the trump stuff that i assume you guys are familiar with (offering to trade us for greenland, throwing paper towels at us and then not passing meaningful relief packages, etc etc) and straight to january of this year, where the supreme court rules that the PROMESA restructuring of debt was legal and valid even though the senate didn�t get to vote on any of the board members, blahblahblah. this is important because it means that the fcb is still legally binding and has been upheld as established law (even though puerto rico doesn�t vote for the president or congress and as such has no input on their lawmakers or who even appoints the supreme court justices) and as such it�s allowed to continue its austerity plan, even though puerto rico�s debt has actually gotten worse since they started and that was before maria did 140b of infrastructure damage. any hope of the republicans accelerating on through is now gone and the island is instead being slow bled by obama appointees.

infrastructure still hasn�t been rebuilt, with various tech ghouls trying to use the island as a petri dish for their theories about alternative ways of sourcing energy; my grandpa (who lives in a small village) hasn�t had power for about three months and has been trapped in his town because of debris on the roads making it unsafe to drive and has to stay with me for a few months so he can get dialysis and also his house is flooded so he�s pretty fuckin homeless

so, coronavirus hits. it goes poorly as you would expect for the economy of an island country whose economy is at least partially rooted in tourism (but also pharmaceuticals, which we�ll touch on in a bit) but the other shoe drops in may: based on the fcb projections, puerto rico�s economy is expected to shrink every year for the next six years. the good news is that a newly created board is reversing a lot of the original austerity policies, but only after four years of people suffering needlessly on an island that already had 40% of people below the poverty line and is staring down 40% unemployment

on top of all that, about two weeks ago the island hosed up its primary by not having ballots available at every polling station, and no one (like, not even the president of the bar association of puerto rico) knows what the proper legal procedure for alternative voting would be, so that was fuckin chill

the national debt now stands at about $74 billion after some pensions got loving slaaaaashed and other austerity spending and it�s not allowed to file for bankruptcy to discharge the remaining sum; it�ll take every economic parlor trick in the book to keep that debt from growing and putting the island right back where it started; the united states intends to allow for venture capitalists who bought the risky bonds to realize return on their investments while also using the island as a springboard to rebuild �domestic� pharmaceutical production, which due to its tenuous nature as being a part of the united states without being a state lends to its continued exploitation

tl;dr: puerto rico is a deregulated nightmare plagued by debt that�s already been hosed by austerity and is leveraged to the hilt, but also cannot file for bankruptcy and is duty bound to repay the debt thanks to capitalist governing

CURRENT POLITICAL SITUATION
For the last...oh let's say 60 years or so, Puerto Rican politics has generally been dominated by two parties: the Popular Democratic Party (PPD; Partido Popular Democr�tico) and New Progressive Party (PNP; Partido Nuevo Progresista). The PNP currently holds power, but because of a number of scandals over the last year or so, their name is pretty fuckin tarnished. No idea if the PPD will actually dislodge them, though. As for other groups, well, I'd like to quote myself and a fellow goon on the matter:

cool dance moves posted:

I think the junta has worn everyone out. A decade or two ago, people could still get excited about status plebiscites. Now? It all sounds like a sick joke. Nobody gives a gently caress. The last plebiscite saw like 23% turnout. The two main parties are still around because of institutional inertia, but IME (feel free to contradict me) the younger people are tired of both of them. Theres more passion for third-party candidates like Alexandra L�garo and Juan Dalmau. Doesnt mean that any of the third party candidates will actually win the governorship ofc, but it's interesting to watch these old institutions collapse and new currents rise.

Declan MacManus posted:

my cousin who still lives there says him and all his friends have basically gone full doomer since everyone stormed the governor's office and rossello was replaced with rossello lite and then rossello: for her, but the constant rage and despair fuels the protests to the point where every lovely move the government makes is met with mass protests all over the island

the upside is that the internal political parties of puerto rico do not have nearly the hold on the electoral process that the republicans and the democrats do, but significant progress will be impossible with the boot of the united states on puerto rico's neck, managing its finances through debt protectionism to make sure us investors get their cut

Additionally, forums poster UnknownTarget illustrates why doomerism reigns

UnknownTarget posted:

After Irma Maria I wrote several long posts about what the US territories and commonwealth needed to do (hurricane shelters, storing supplies for next time, BURYING THE POWER LINES). I tried to work with people I knew who were still down there (I am part of the diaspora, hold that against me if you want), tried to talk to government officials.

The political structures are incapable of dealing with any of this poo poo. They can't. They won't. And gently caress you if you try to make life better. Nothing has been fixed since Hurricane Maria. Nothing can be fixed. That would mean the government takes an active role in making peoples' lives better. And that doesn't make Number Go Up. We are doomed to climate collapse all while our leaders try to make nice with an even dumber elon musk, in the hopes that they'll invest in our economy and make Number Go Up.

We're hosed. Unless...

If there's one thing I hope came through in this post, it's my belief that the same economic phenomena have been expressed around the capitalist world. Our fates are tied worldwide. The struggle of the Puerto Rican proletariat is the struggle of the American proletariat, and the Chinese proletariat, and the Nigerian proletariat, and and and...

Climate change does not discriminate. Neither does transnational capitalism. I don't know if there's still hope. But if there is, it lies in our solidarity, duly tempered in the misery of a collapsing ecosystem.

Posters from the developed world: You've got a lot of motherfuckers over there. We've got some motherfuckers of our own, over here. You take care of yours, we'll take care of ours. Once the hurricane shelters have been built and stocked, maybe we can go to the beach and have some beers--my treat.

(big thanks to Declan MacManus, UnknownTarget and bagual for helping make this op)

# ? Aug 30, 2020 17:20

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# ? Apr 29, 2024 02:11

cool dance moves: Aug 27, 2018

reserved

# ? Aug 30, 2020 17:21

FUCK COREY PERRY: Apr 19, 2008

good thread title

random question from someone relatively ignorant on the overall region: how different are the issues the caribbean are facing compared the the central american countries (below mexico & above colombia)? i know they're also already feeling the impact of climate change, but more with crop problems than extreme weather events. are there significant overall parallels between the issues of the two areas, or are they largely separate?

# ? Aug 30, 2020 17:41

Declan MacManus: Sep 1, 2011; damn i'm really in this bitch

gently caress COREY PERRY posted:

good thread title

random question from someone relatively ignorant on the overall region: how different are the issues the caribbean are facing compared the the central american countries (below mexico & above colombia)? i know they're also already feeling the impact of climate change, but more with crop problems than extreme weather events. are there significant overall parallels between the issues of the two areas, or are they largely separate?

the real ball buster with extreme weather is that because they�re all islands, it�s extremely hard to do proper disaster relief. as much as rich people like to pretend that the world is a tech utopia, the logistics of sending aid by boat or by air are still messy even with fully functioning air and sea ports (which if they�ve been hit by disaster, they�re usually not functioning). a lot of the us territories in the caribbean have one foot in the global south and the other in the united states, so there are plenty of overlapping problems, but it�s definitely not 1:1

someone better versed in latin america would probably be able to tell you better than i could, though

# ? Aug 30, 2020 19:28

cool dance moves: Aug 27, 2018

gently caress COREY PERRY posted:

good thread title

random question from someone relatively ignorant on the overall region: how different are the issues the caribbean are facing compared the the central american countries (below mexico & above colombia)? i know they're also already feeling the impact of climate change, but more with crop problems than extreme weather events. are there significant overall parallels between the issues of the two areas, or are they largely separate?

Declan MacManus posted:

the real ball buster with extreme weather is that because they’re all islands, it’s extremely hard to do proper disaster relief. as much as rich people like to pretend that the world is a tech utopia, the logistics of sending aid by boat or by air are still messy even with fully functioning air and sea ports (which if they’ve been hit by disaster, they’re usually not functioning). a lot of the us territories in the caribbean have one foot in the global south and the other in the united states, so there are plenty of overlapping problems, but it’s definitely not 1:1

someone better versed in latin america would probably be able to tell you better than i could, though

i am by no means an expert on central america, but it seems to me that their economies are more agrarian--in large part thanks to US efforts--which makes them more susceptible to climate catastrophes. For instance, the Puerto Rican agricultural sector got its poo poo rocked with the last couple of storms to pass through the island. but the Puerto Rican economy passed through the agriculture=>industry=>post-industry process already, so even if it is facing similar catastrophes, their effects take on a different character. no less dire, of course.

to give another example: summer tends to be a pretty dry season in PR. some years, this means drought and water rationing. one year in particular, we were only getting water once every two days or so (as in, water=>no water=>no water=>water...). i don't recall hearing news of the economy itself being affected, though that could also be because we're in such dire straits to begin with that having water shut off effectively 2/3 of the time doesn't make a huge dent, relatively speaking.

# ? Aug 30, 2020 21:57

UnknownTarget: Sep 5, 2019

I'll post later but for now I'll say this; I have a vision of where we rise up; leaders being heard in Caribbean communities, working with others to build a better way of life for everything.

If you look deep inside yourself and say "I am not that leader," then do not be ashamed; if there were only leaders nothing could get done. Your opinion is valid and if you don't like the opinions of any of the leaders you know: then maybe you should see if you missed anything the first time.

Dishes, tata for now!

# ? Aug 31, 2020 02:45

UnknownTarget: Sep 5, 2019

Ok I can't get into the Wordpress database with my old posts on this right now but here is the end of the one I do have access to at the moment;

quote:

1. Build storm shelters. Many people do not live in hurricane safe homes, and many people have not repaired theirs from the last time. Building communal shelters to take refuge in will save lives and property. Stocking them with food, water, batteries, etc. before a storm hits will reduce panic.

2. Invest in wireless telecoms and new low-cost disaster relief technologies. Buy a bunch of drones and throw them up immediately after a storm. Don�t wait on big expensive helicopters and aircraft.

3. Offer tax breaks and even just give people money to install solar panels, wind farms, etc. near their homes. Rather than continuing the fruitless effort to bury the power lines (the USVI has been �trying� to do this for like 20 years), skip that and create node-based power so that knocking out the central power station doesn�t leave the entire island in the dark. Can you believe that the USVI makes it extremely difficult to buy and place your own solar panels?

4. Form an inter-island alliance. I like to say it�s the European Union of the Caribbean. There�s lots of racism between different islands, but the only way we�re going to get through this is by working together. When the hurricane ravages one island, aid can be sent from another. When storms force a mass migration from one island to another, other islands can chip in to share the load � rather than letting each one of them flounder under their problems.

EDIT: Love the thread title btw. I'm interested in discussing how a renaissance in Puerto Rico, and the rest of the Caribbean might benefit the world.

UnknownTarget has issued a correction as of 04:41 on Aug 31, 2020

# ? Aug 31, 2020 04:23

DAD LOST MY IPOD: Feb 3, 2012; Fats Dominar is on the case

my expertise is limited to the USVI and especially STT/STJ since that's where i lived.

one advantage that the USVI has is that it's tiny. one billionaire could decide to make the islands a monument to his ego and it would look like loving star trek down there. STT's recovery was much faster than PR's because the island is small enough that they could actually physically do things like give food to literally everyone and bring enough generator fuel for literally everyone.

of course that's the downside, too. the islands are desperately poor and short on resources. anything big simply won't get done because even everyone banding together won't suffice.

imagine if the lovely small suburb you grew up in had a mayor and city council, like normal. now imagine that town had to have the entire suite of municipal resources: fire, police, but also courts and jails, its own department of fish and game, its own unemployment office and RMV, power plants, sewage treatment, water, internet, schools, hospital. now imagine it had to do everything the state does, too, like administer medicaid and medicare and social security, process your tax returns, track immigration, run an airport and multiple seaports with customs stations, run its own national guard. now add to that all of the unique things you get from being on an island, like weather preparedness, shipping logistics, medical evacuation etc. all that stuff! but it's still just your crappy little hometown. st. thomas has fewer than 40,000 people. add to that that it's not even your hometown, since you're a goon and you probably came from a toney white suburb-- it's almost all poor black people with a legacy of colonialism and oppression.

no wonder it's dysfunctional as hell. but the one thing i'd say in its favor is that the people of st. thomas do not want to be colonized. self-rule is huge. it may be dysfunctional, but it's theirs, and they'll never forget that. i drove past this mural every time i went to the pharmacy or K-mart (yes K-mart was still a thing there)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUgUz4wGrB0
(not my video, but filmed while I was there, a little before Irma by the looks of it).

# ? Aug 31, 2020 23:47

cool dance moves: Aug 27, 2018

UnknownTarget posted:

Ok I can't get into the Wordpress database with my old posts on this right now but here is the end of the one I do have access to at the moment;

EDIT: Love the thread title btw. I'm interested in discussing how a renaissance in Puerto Rico, and the rest of the Caribbean might benefit the world.

i think these are some good starting points. there's a few shifts already in that direction. i remember when a hurricane swept through the bahamas last year, the UPR had drives to collect supplies to send over. at the same time, i'm not sure how to square the logistical needs of building hurricane shelters versus the willingness/ability of our governments to actually do that, versus the abilities of parallel community institutions to pull it off.

DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:

my expertise is limited to the USVI and especially STT/STJ since that's where i lived.

[...]

welcome! i definitely feel the "it's a shithole, but it's our shithole" vibe.

actually, i'd like to ask about how USVI has been handling climate change! UnknownTarget mentioned that it's tough to get solar panels in USVI--what's your experience?
FWIW, the Puerto Rican government has been throwing around the idea of taxing solar panels. After Maria turbofucked our electrical grid, people have been moving towards getting solar panels. Which would eat into the money the government makes from power bills, hence the idea of taxing panels. i wouldn't be surprised if other governments were trying to pull the same bullshit.

# ? Sep 1, 2020 03:30

Thesaurus: Oct 3, 2004

hello. I live in Puerto Rico, although I'm a Yankee gringo. Excited for this thread though!

I'm not "Puerto Rican", although my legal status is now the same as a resident. luv 2 b disenfranchised.

I'm happy to chime in on stuff with my view as a resident outsider, although I spend most of my time trying figure out wtf is going on in the politics here. It's extremely opaque to an outsider and the news naturally doesn't explain much context.

I also lived in the Dominican Republic for a time, nesr the border with Haiti, for what that's worth. For all of the problems that PR has with infrastructure etc, the DR is hosed way worse in every way. It's a great country though and I was hoping to go back soon for a trip, but covid ruined those plans.

gently caress COREY PERRY posted:

good thread title

random question from someone relatively ignorant on the overall region: how different are the issues the caribbean are facing compared the the central american countries (below mexico & above colombia)? i know they're also already feeling the impact of climate change, but more with crop problems than extreme weather events. are there significant overall parallels between the issues of the two areas, or are they largely separate?

good news! PR has virtually no agricultural industry and is almost completely dependent on imports. Consequently food is really expensive here, more than you'd pay in the US, even though everyone is substantially poorer. My understanding is that this is changing since Maria, with there being a resurgence in local agriculture and the concept of "soberan�a alimentaria" Aka food sovereignty.

As an outsider, I've been trying to buy local produce as much as possible, but grocery stores with imported food still seem dominant.

It was a bit of shock coming from the DR, because most of that island relied on subsistence farming of some kind. Everyone grows food everywhere, and it was easy to get fresh local food no matter where you were.

There are some farmers markets in PR, but they remind me more of the farmers markets you'd see in a college town, with homemade soaps, artisan bread, etc, rather than a true open air market to meet basic consumption needs. This is fine and I enjoy them, but it's just a very noticeable difference from the "sister" island of the DR.

Thesaurus has issued a correction as of 03:50 on Sep 1, 2020

# ? Sep 1, 2020 03:43

Thesaurus: Oct 3, 2004

DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:

(yes K-mart was still a thing there)

lol Kmart is a definitely a thing in PR as well. It's actually a pleasant shopping experience and doesn't resemble what I remember from the mainland. Same with Sears and other semi defunct department stores.

PR also seems to have a high concentration of good political murals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRsvX1xQMx8
This wall is in old San Juan and changed from time to time.

I can't find a good picture of it, but ond I like on the highway into the city is just enormous letters saying "EXIJIMOS DESTITUCI�N Y C�RCEL, QUE TODXS PAGUEN"

Edit: re solar panels, I'd be interested in any insight anyone can share on the current privatization of AEE (the electric company). Recently sold to
something called Luma Energy. I know the electrical union wasn't a big fan

Thesaurus has issued a correction as of 04:04 on Sep 1, 2020

# ? Sep 1, 2020 03:46

Declan MacManus: Sep 1, 2011; damn i'm really in this bitch

does anyone have any concise articles about MirRam that sort of sum up their whole shady lobbying crusade?

# ? Sep 2, 2020 23:47

Victory Position: Mar 16, 2004

cool dance moves posted:

actually, i'd like to ask about how USVI has been handling climate change! UnknownTarget mentioned that it's tough to get solar panels in USVI--what's your experience?
FWIW, the Puerto Rican government has been throwing around the idea of taxing solar panels. After Maria turbofucked our electrical grid, people have been moving towards getting solar panels. Which would eat into the money the government makes from power bills, hence the idea of taxing panels. i wouldn't be surprised if other governments were trying to pull the same bullshit.

is it true that South American energy companies have been trying to swoop in for cheap property due to all the damage?

# ? Sep 2, 2020 23:52

Thesaurus: Oct 3, 2004

Declan MacManus posted:

does anyone have any concise articles about MirRam that sort of sum up their whole shady lobbying crusade?

I hadn't heard of that group, but since you mentioned it I found this article which has been somewhat insightful.

https://thenewinquiry.com/disaster-act/

lmao'd at this description:

quote:

The [PROMESA] bill has empowered the profiteers of disaster capitalism, developers and entrepreneurs, from the likes of Wall Street tycoon billionaire John Paulson to cryptocreep and alleged pedophile Brock Pierce, currently building a private Bitcoin city inside Old San Juan.

I don't know wtf the "crypto city" is supposed to bed first I've heard of it.

The allegation about the Mirandas seem vague to me. The article says,

quote:

In short, Miranda and his associates are pulling off a soft coup on the archipelago.

but what does this really mean? It doesn't cite anything particularly hosed up that they've been involved in, other than advocating for PROMESA like many others and maybe profiting off of the revival of the coffee industry?

# ? Sep 3, 2020 02:51

cool dance moves: Aug 27, 2018

I only read the article halfway because of a mix of attention problems and seething , suppressed fury/hatred/rage towards Lin Manuel Miranda, but I dont think the coup is a coup in the traditional sense. I think it's more of a "too big to fail" thing--by giving the island money, they are tying a leash. Cant go against the moneybags, or they'll pull out their money and then everything is even more hosed.

Also, I forgot just how livid that unbearable shitstain Lin Manuel Miranda makes me. I'm surrounded by succlibs so I have to keep those emotions in my back pocket, but I will never forget how he went up to bat for PROMESA even as any Puerto Rican who wsnt a total stooge was calling it a disaster. gently caress Miranda, gently caress Obama, may the flesh rot off their still-living bodies and their bones be crushed

# ? Sep 3, 2020 03:05

Thesaurus: Oct 3, 2004

surprisingly funny NYT article on the "crypto utopia"

quote:

Making a Crypto Utopia in Puerto Rico

By Nellie Bowles
Feb. 2, 2018
Leer en espa�ol
SAN JUAN, P.R. � They call what they are building Puertopia. But then someone told them, apparently in all seriousness, that it translates to �eternal boy playground� in Latin. So they are changing the name: They will call it Sol.

Dozens of entrepreneurs, made newly wealthy by blockchain and cryptocurrencies, are heading en masse to Puerto Rico this winter. They are selling their homes and cars in California and establishing residency on the Caribbean island in hopes of avoiding what they see as onerous state and federal taxes on their growing fortunes, some of which now reach into the billions of dollars.

And these men � because they are almost exclusively men � have a plan for what to do with the wealth: They want to build a crypto utopia, a new city where the money is virtual and the contracts are all public, to show the rest of the world what a crypto future could look like. Blockchain, a digital ledger that forms the basis of virtual currencies, has the potential to reinvent society � and the Puertopians want to prove it.

For more than a year, the entrepreneurs had been searching for the best location. After Hurricane Maria decimated Puerto Rico�s infrastructure in September and the price of cryptocurrencies began to soar, they saw an opportunity and felt a sense of urgency.

So this crypto community flocked here to create its paradise. Now the investors are spending their days hunting for property where they could have their own airports and docks. They are taking over hotels and a museum in the capital�s historic section, called Old San Juan. They say they are close to getting the local government to allow them to have the first cryptocurrency bank.

�What�s happened here is a perfect storm,� said Halsey Minor, the founder of the news site CNET, who is moving his new blockchain company � called Videocoin � from the Cayman Islands to Puerto Rico this winter. Referring to Hurricane Maria and the investment interest that has followed, he added, �While it was really bad for the people of Puerto Rico, in the long term it�s a godsend if people look past that.�

Puerto Rico offers an unparalleled tax incentive: no federal personal income taxes, no capital gains tax and favorable business taxes � all without having to renounce your American citizenship. For now, the local government seems receptive toward the crypto utopians; the governor will speak at their blockchain summit conference, called Puerto Crypto, in March.

The territory�s go-to blockchain tax lawyer is Giovanni Mendez, 30. He expected the tax expatriates to disappear after Hurricane Maria, but the population has instead boomed.

�It�s increased monumentally,� said Mr. Mendez, who has about two dozen crypto clients. �And they all came together.�

The movement is alarming an earlier generation of Puerto Rico tax expats like the hedge fund manager Robb Rill, who runs a social group for those taking advantage of the tax incentives.

�They call me up saying they�re going to buy 250,000 acres so they can incorporate their own city, literally start a city in Puerto Rico to have their own crypto world,� said Mr. Rill, who moved to the island in 2013. �I can�t engage in that.�

The newcomers are still debating the exact shape that Puertopia should take. Some think they need to make a city; others think it�s enough to move into Old San Juan. Puertopians said, however, that they hoped to move very fast.

�You�ve never seen an industry catalyze a place like you�re going to see here,� Mr. Minor said.

The Monastery
Until the Puertopians find land, they have descended on the Monastery, a 20,000-square-foot hotel they rented as their base and that was largely unscathed by the hurricane.

Matt Clemenson and Stephen Morris were drinking beer on the Monastery�s roof one recent evening. Mr. Clemenson had an easygoing affect and wore two-tone aviators; Mr. Morris, a loquacious British man, was in cargo shorts and lace-up steel-toed combat boots, with a smartphone on a necklace. They wanted to make two things clear: They chose Puerto Rico because of the hurricane, and they come in peace.

�It�s only when everything�s been swept away that you can make a case for rebuilding from the ground up,� Mr. Morris, 53, said.

�We�re benevolent capitalists, building a benevolent economy,� said Mr. Clemenson, 34, a co-founder of Lottery.com, which is using the blockchain in lotteries. �Puerto Rico has been this hidden gem, this enchanted island that�s been consistently overlooked and mistreated. Maybe 500 years later we can make it right.�

Other Puertopians arrived on the roof as a pack, just back from a full-day property-hunting bus tour. From the middle, Brock Pierce, 37, the leader of the Puertopia movement, emerged wearing drop crotch capri pants, a black vest that almost hit his knees and a large black felt hat. He and others had arrived on the island in early December.

�Compassion, respect, financial transparency,� Mr. Pierce said when asked what was guiding them here.

Mr. Pierce, the director of the Bitcoin Foundation, is a major figure in the crypto boom. He co-founded a blockchain-for-business start-up, Block.One, which has sold around $200 million of a custom virtual currency, EOS, in a so-called initial coin offering. The value of all the outstanding EOS tokens is around $6.5 billion.

A former child actor, Mr. Pierce got into digital money early as a professional gamer, mining and trading gold in the video game World of Warcraft, an effort funded partly by Stephen K. Bannon, the former Trump adviser. Mr. Pierce is a controversial figure � he has previously been sued for fraud, among other matters.

Downstairs, in the Monastery penthouse, a dozen or so other expats were hanging out. The water was out that night, so the toilets and faucets were dry. Mr. Minor lounged on an alcove chaise.

�The U.S. doesn�t want us. It�s trying to choke off this economy,� Mr. Minor said, referring to the difficulties that crypto investors have with American banks. �There needs to be a place where people are free to invent.�

Mr. Pierce paced the room with his hands in fists. A few times a day, he played a video for the group on his phone and a portable speaker: Charlie Chaplin�s 1940 �The Great Dictator,� in which Chaplin parodies Hitler rallying his forces. He finds inspiration in lines like �More than machinery, we need humanity.�

�I�m worried people are going to misinterpret our actions,� Mr. Pierce said. �That we�re just coming to Puerto Rico to dodge taxes.�

He said he was aiming to create a charitable token called ONE with $1 billion of his own money. �If you take the MY out of money, you�re left with ONE,� Mr. Pierce said.

�He�s tuned in to a higher calling,� said Kai Nygard, scion of the Canadian clothing company Nygard and a crypto investor. �He�s beyond money.�

The force of Mr. Pierce�s personality and his spiritual presence are important to the group, whose members are otherwise largely agnostic.[/b] Mr. Pierce regularly performs rituals. Earlier that day while scoping out property, they had stopped at a historic Ceiba tree, known as the Tree of Life.

�Brock nestled into the bosom of it and was there for 10 minutes,� Mr. Nygard said.

Mr. Pierce walked around the tree and said prayers for Puertopia, holding a rusted wrench he had picked up in the territory. He kissed an old man�s feet. He blessed a crystal in the water, as they all watched. He played the Chaplin speech to everyone and to the tree, Mr. Nygard said.[/b]

That wrench is now in the penthouse, heavy and greasy.

Later on, at a dinner in a nearby restaurant, the group ordered platters of octopus arms, fried cheese, ceviche and rum cocktails. They began debating whether to buy Puerto Rico�s Roosevelt Roads Naval Station, which measures 9,000 acres and has two deepwater ports and an adjacent airport. The only hitch: It�s a Superfund cleanup site.

Mr. Pierce had fallen asleep by then, his hat tilted down and arms crossed. He gets two hours of sleep many nights, often on a firm grounding mat to stay in contact with the earth�s electric energy. Josh Boles, a tall, athletic man who is another crypto expat, picked him up, and the group headed back to the Monastery.

They walked past a big pink building in an old town square, the start of their vision for Puertopia�s downtown. Once a children�s museum, they plan on making it a crypto clubhouse and outreach center that will have the mission �to bring together Puerto Ricans with Puertopians.�

The Vanderbilt
Workdays are casual in Puertopia. One morning, Bryan Larkin, 39, and Reeve Collins, 42, were working at another old hotel, the Condado Vanderbilt, where they had their laptops on a pool bar with frozen pi�a coladas on tap.

�We�re going to make this crypto land,� Mr. Larkin said.

Mr. Larkin has mined about $2 billion in Bitcoin and is the chief technology officer of Blockchain Industries, a publicly traded company based in Puerto Rico.

Mr. Collins, an internet veteran, had raised more than $20 million from an initial coin offering for BlockV, his app store for the blockchain, whose outstanding tokens are worth about $125 million. He had also co-founded Tether, which backs cryptocurrency tied to the value of a dollar and whose outstanding tokens are worth about $2.1 billion, though the company has generated enormous controversy in the virtual currency world.

�So, no. No, I don�t want to pay taxes,� Mr. Collins said. �This is the first time in human history anyone other than kings or governments or gods can create their own money.�

He had moved from Santa Monica, Calif., with just a few bags and was now starting a local cryptocurrency incubator called Vatom Factory.

�When Brock said, �We�re moving to Puerto Rico for the taxes and to create this new town,� I said, �I�m in,�� Mr. Collins said. �Sight unseen.�

They soon went back to work, checking out Coinmarketcap.com, a site that shows the price of cryptocurrencies.

�Our market cap�s gone up $100 million in a week,� Mr. Collins said.

�Congrats, man,� Mr. Larkin said.

Welcome, Puertopians?
All across San Juan, many locals are trying to figure out what to do with the crypto arrivals.

Some are open to the new wave as a welcome infusion of investment and ideas.

�We�re open for crypto business,� said Erika Medina-Vecchini, the chief business development officer for the Department of Economic Development and Commerce, in an interview at her office. She said her office was starting an ad campaign aimed at the new crypto expat boom, with the tagline �Paradise Performs.�

Others worry about the island�s being used for an experiment and talk about �crypto colonialism.� At a house party in San Juan, Richard Lopez, 32, who runs a pizza restaurant, Estella, in the town of Arecibo, said: �I think it�s great. Lure them in with taxes, and they�ll spend money.�

Andria Satz, 33, who grew up in Old San Juan and works for the Conservation Trust of Puerto Rico, disagreed.

�We�re the tax playground for the rich,� she said. �We�re the test case for anyone who wants to experiment. Outsiders get tax exemptions, and locals can�t get permits.�

Mr. Lopez said the territory needed something to jump-start the economy. �We have to find a new way,� he said.

�Sure then, Bitcoin, why not,� Ms. Satz said, throwing up her hands.

Mr. Lopez said he and a childhood friend, Rafael Perez, 31, were trying to set up a Bitcoin mine in their hometown. But electricity has been inconsistent, and mining even a single Bitcoin takes a lot of power, he said.

�We�re the tax playground for the rich,� she said. �We�re the test case for anyone who wants to experiment. Outsiders get tax exemptions, and locals can�t get permits.�

That pretty much sums up the entire history of PR as far as I'm familiar with it

Edit: it sounds like the crypto city hasn't taken off just yet!
https://decrypt.co/21218/building-a-blockchain-island-in-puerto-rico?amp=1

Thesaurus has issued a correction as of 03:21 on Sep 3, 2020

# ? Sep 3, 2020 03:08

Declan MacManus: Sep 1, 2011; damn i'm really in this bitch

Thesaurus posted:

surprisingly funny NYT article on the "crypto utopia"

�We�re the tax playground for the rich,� she said. �We�re the test case for anyone who wants to experiment. Outsiders get tax exemptions, and locals can�t get permits.�

That pretty much sums up the entire history of PR as far as I'm familiar with it

Edit: it sounds like the crypto city hasn't taken off just yet!
https://decrypt.co/21218/building-a-blockchain-island-in-puerto-rico?amp=1

well at least when those gringos from the doomsday econ thread try to start their marxist colony, they�ll have company

# ? Sep 3, 2020 04:42

UnknownTarget: Sep 5, 2019

So it took me awhile to continnue responding to this thread because I got a 3 day probe for "a lovely post about being a colonizer" which is :laugh:

but anyway...

cool dance moves posted:

actually, i'd like to ask about how USVI has been handling climate change! UnknownTarget mentioned that it's tough to get solar panels in USVI--what's your experience?
FWIW, the Puerto Rican government has been throwing around the idea of taxing solar panels. After Maria turbofucked our electrical grid, people have been moving towards getting solar panels. Which would eat into the money the government makes from power bills, hence the idea of taxing panels. i wouldn't be surprised if other governments were trying to pull the same bullshit.

That's pretty much what the USVI government has been doing; taxing the poo poo out of anyone who wants to use solar panels. The WAPA plant (Water And Power Authority) on St. Thomas has been on its last legs for years and the islands are struggling to pay for the natural gas to keep it going. So they view anything that cuts into the revenue stream as a threat, I'd imagine.

Also, I got into my Wordpress posts. Will post any articles I think are relevant in the future.

# ? Sep 3, 2020 14:43

UnknownTarget: Sep 5, 2019

Actually, I want to talk about my probation. Why is it that someone who said the same words as a colonizer is assumed to be a colonizer?

I will tell you; because of four (4) preconceived notions that are built into the very bedrock of our modern cultural world order.

Take, for example, us. We are using the Internet to chat in our leisure time. This is Assumption #1: We are not from places that are on TV ads - like the "eyes of the angel" song with the starving kid.

Assumption #2 is that we are all part of the anglo-American sphere of cultural hegemony because we are using the Internet and speaking English on it. This includes US occupied areas (military bases, Caribbean and Pacific Islands).

Both of these assumptions combine to Assumption #3: we assume that most people in this sphere of influence is white, male and straight. Or at the very least white and male, because this is the Internet.

So, because of those three assumptions, when I said;

"So, basically, the Caribbean is free game; it's not paid attention to much outside of tourism, it has lots of natural resources, is absolutely beautiful and has many separate small countries that can make their own laws."

I am pretty sure that this was construed as a white male from somewhere in America, maybe Europe, was saying that the Caribbean was unable to defend itself and trying to convince others that it would be beneficial to buy up the place and start some businesses and then ship whatever resources off to somewhere to make a good profit, get out clean and live the high life.

This is because in Assumption #4, if you're on the Internet you're using capitalism.

So all of these together and I look like the enemy. I get it. I'll doxx myself here a little bit; I look really white. But I'm not.

The Caribbean is chock-full of racist everypeople. I think that the most surprising thing I learned about the other islands after IrmaMaria are that they are really...it's like racist, but not - more like... islandist?

Like the biggest problem to Caribbean unity are the Caribbean boomers who are just not open to ideas from anyone not from their island, not from their people. For the old timers it's based on race. For everyone else; "are you born here or not". This being the Internet, I'll let that float for a bit.

The first step to inter-island unity is to build a place (my vote: a super cool virtual reality world) where we all can talk and meet each other; appearances be damned, none of that Facebook poo poo - not Anonymous either. Something like a forum.

We have resources, we have good minds and people that care about the planet and life here on it. The problem is capitalism. It's everywhere, or at least, it's most places.

Truly the moral question is: do we hold fast; absolutely to our identity or do we choose to accept that tools are not sinful in and of themselves but instead meant to be wielded for purpose?

What I propose is to take hold of the levers of this system and learn to work them for what is most important; life and the keeping of it. What that looks like I shall leave here to foster what I hope will be a fun discussion!

UnknownTarget has issued a correction as of 01:20 on Sep 4, 2020

# ? Sep 4, 2020 00:47

PERPETUAL IDIOT: Sep 12, 2003

Anyone know how the election is looking in Jamaica? Chances for the PNP, and is there a sense they'll do anything worthwhile if they win?

# ? Sep 4, 2020 01:34

cool dance moves: Aug 27, 2018

UnknownTarget posted:

Actually, I want to talk about my probation.[...]

ok, you bring up some interesting points with this post that i think should be addressed--and not in a harsh way!--but i urge you not to bring that post into this discussion. if you want, we can still discuss it itt, but i cannot in good conscience say that i will be nice about it. if, knowing that, you still want to talk about it, then we can talk about it itt. i'm posting this to let you know--en guerra avisada no mueren gente--and to ask others to give you a chance before jumping down your throat again.

# ? Sep 4, 2020 01:36

UnknownTarget: Sep 5, 2019

cool dance moves posted:

ok, you bring up some interesting points with this post that i think should be addressed--and not in a harsh way!--but i urge you not to bring that post into this discussion. if you want, we can still discuss it itt, but i cannot in good conscience say that i will be nice about it. if, knowing that, you still want to talk about it, then we can talk about it itt. i'm posting this to let you know--en guerra avisada no mueren gente--and to ask others to give you a chance before jumping down your throat again.

Does that mean "In warned war, people do not die"?

That's what Google Translate gave me.

Anyway, what would you like to talk about?

UnknownTarget has issued a correction as of 06:25 on Sep 4, 2020

# ? Sep 4, 2020 01:43

cool dance moves: Aug 27, 2018

UnknownTarget posted:

Does that mean "In warned war, people do not die"?

That's what Google Translate gave me.

it's a rather well-known idiom in Puerto Rico. It basically means, "tread carefully, you've been warned"

quote:

Anyway, what would you like to talk about?

Keeping with just the post I quoted earlier, I think you're right in that SomethingAwful is the kind of place where everyone is assumed to be a white, cishet male. Probably someone who works with computers, reasonably comfortable--not enough to be rolling in cash, but also not in immediate danger of facing eviction. That assumption does complicate discussions of race. FWIW i am white hispanic cishet male. so white, i get confused for a yankee tourist sometimes. so that's the makeup i'm coming from.

I think what put me off originally is that the language of making use of resources, and of cultural weakness, is something that has traditionally been used to justify sacking the global South. White man's burden and all that.

Here, let me illustrate my point by commenting on some political cartoons from the time.

This is a campaign poster for the incumbent Republican ticket in the 1900 presidential election. Right away I want to draw attention to the union between material prosperity and humanitarianism; Cuba is shown transforming from a dungeon to a land of plenty. Between, the line "The American flag has not been planted on foreign soil to acquire more territory but for humanity's sake. Put a pin on that, I'm gonna be referencing it later.

Incidentally, here's a poster for the Democratic ticket of the 1900 election, headed by William Jennings Bryan. Note the difference in how it treats economics and empire, compared to the Republican poster above. Here, trusts and monopolies are an octopus to be destroyed. The McKinley ticket implies a social and economic harmony even under capitalist conditions; worker and boss working together for the good of all. As good lefties, we know that harmony is impossible under capitalism; there is an intrinsic tension between employer and employee. We know that the periodic crises of capitalism can only be remedied under capitalism by either more thoroughly exploiting existing markets, or penetrating markets abroad...in the Caribbean and Pacific, for example. The United States' role as a global leader is also distinct; whereas the Republican poster implies a more direct control over Cuban internal affairs, this poster shows a vision of the United States not as a colonial administrator, but as an example for the oppressed peoples of the world. They worship liberty, but the fight is ultimately their own.

the theme of prosperity and happiness continues, as illustrated here. Cuba, PR, the Philippines are shown eager to take part in what is no doubt going to be a happy picnic with their new friends, the United States. US expansion abroad is seen as a way to help the locals. Something that happened with their consent, and for their wellbeing

However, it wasn't all for the benefit of the colonized. Uncle Sam was also feelin' pretty hungry.

So now there's the seeds of tension. On the one hand, it's cool and good to help a people take control of their own destiny. On the other hand, there's lots of money to be made. Suppose those people want to keep the money made off their own resources? Suppose they grow to resent the unequal exploitation of resources?

The result? Doesn't take long for all the feelgood bullshit to get tossed out the window.

This is why so many people--myself included--react so strongly against that kind of language. There is a fundamental tension between the foreign exploitation of resources and the wellbeing of the local communities. The Caribbean peoples need to be the ones guiding their own prosperity, or it is no prosperity at all.

I do agree that there needs to be a pan-Caribbean solidarity, even if it's just about shipping supplies to areas hit by natural disasters. It's a start. And I think there are some heartening things happening, especially between the younger generations. The virtual sphere will probably be how such a movement opens, but I hope it expands from there into real life. Not happening during the pandemic, ofc. But if there is a world after coronavirus...

And as always, boomers delenda est. Can't forget that.

# ? Sep 4, 2020 15:50

Victory Position: Mar 16, 2004

UnknownTarget posted:

The first step to inter-island unity is to build a place (my vote: a super cool virtual reality world) where we all can talk and meet each other; appearances be damned, none of that Facebook poo poo - not Anonymous either. Something like a forum.

uhhh, about that

you may want something a lot more robust than VRchat or Xenforo

# ? Sep 4, 2020 16:25

UnknownTarget: Sep 5, 2019

cool dance moves posted:

it's a rather well-known idiom in Puerto Rico. It basically means, "tread carefully, you've been warned"

Keeping with just the post I quoted earlier, I think you're right in that SomethingAwful is the kind of place where everyone is assumed to be a white, cishet male. Probably someone who works with computers, reasonably comfortable--not enough to be rolling in cash, but also not in immediate danger of facing eviction. That assumption does complicate discussions of race. FWIW i am white hispanic cishet male. so white, i get confused for a yankee tourist sometimes. so that's the makeup i'm coming from.

Hey, me too!

quote:

I think what put me off originally is that the language of making use of resources, and of cultural weakness, is something that has traditionally been used to justify sacking the global South. White man's burden and all that.

>snip<

This is why so many people--myself included--react so strongly against that kind of language. There is a fundamental tension between the foreign exploitation of resources and the wellbeing of the local communities. The Caribbean peoples need to be the ones guiding their own prosperity, or it is no prosperity at all.

I do agree that there needs to be a pan-Caribbean solidarity, even if it's just about shipping supplies to areas hit by natural disasters. It's a start. And I think there are some heartening things happening, especially between the younger generations. The virtual sphere will probably be how such a movement opens, but I hope it expands from there into real life. Not happening during the pandemic, ofc. But if there is a world after coronavirus...

And as always, boomers delenda est. Can't forget that.

I agree with everything you've said in this post and understand why people can react that way.

What things have you seen happening?

Victory Position posted:

uhhh, about that

you may want something a lot more robust than VRchat or Xenforo

Yea I think a forum is best for now but "normal" people are adverse to spending a lot of time organizing online. So it does need to be a combination of both.

Truthfully I think it comes down to money. That's why in my post I said;

quote:

What I propose is to take hold of the levers of this system and learn to work them for what is most important; life and the keeping of it.

In less flowery language: find ways to produce capital using the tools that capital uses to oppress us. It's sort of like seizing the means of production except there's an interim step where we make money while seizing the means of production so that the natural area can grow and the community can benefit. I think money is so intrinsically intertwined with our social fabric that any movement that does not have some sort of strong capital creation component will fail to get people onboard with it.

Personally, I'm trying to start a company and I hope to share that wealth back into the Caribbean. That's what I mean when I say seize the means of capital production.

UnknownTarget has issued a correction as of 02:17 on Sep 5, 2020

# ? Sep 4, 2020 19:20

UnknownTarget: Sep 5, 2019

Bump. So did I kill the thread?

# ? Sep 7, 2020 20:32

cool dance moves: Aug 27, 2018

You did. The thread is dead. You killed it. You murdered my dear sweet innocent thread. Murderer!!

Nah I just got caught up in some other stuff and couldn't pay attention to this thread. I want to try to make all my posts itt worth reading, which means effortposting which I am not good at. Probably not the best way to go about it, and I encourage people to shitpost here if they want to.

# ? Sep 7, 2020 20:47

cool dance moves: Aug 27, 2018

As for things I've seen happening, mostly drives to collect supplies for islands hit by hurricanes. All done by NGOs looking to collect canned food, clothes, water, you know the drill. Of course, itd all be easier if we had the levers of government to coordinate all that, but I doubt that's gonna happen and frankly, I dont trust the gov enough to do this sort of thing with clean hands. Still, it points towards some kind of solidarity. Maybe itll grow from there--i hope so, but I'm no prophet.

# ? Sep 7, 2020 20:49

Thesaurus: Oct 3, 2004

I can only poo poo post... I mean no disrespect to the Caribbean peoples!

# ? Sep 7, 2020 22:52

cool dance moves: Aug 27, 2018

Folks, we are going to shitpost our way out of this #puñeta #YoNoMeQuito

# ? Sep 7, 2020 23:13

UnknownTarget: Sep 5, 2019

Fuckshitassballs but also, audience members; butts...? Loootsa butt heads round places.

gently caress I am so excited for this Chinese food.

# ? Sep 7, 2020 23:46

UnknownTarget: Sep 5, 2019

Mods, probe me for another 3 days to try and start drama if that's what it takes to keep this thread alive.

Shitposting our way to the future. Way too loving high, gotta wait to come down a lot before bed.

UnknownTarget has issued a correction as of 02:32 on Sep 8, 2020

# ? Sep 8, 2020 02:05

UnknownTarget: Sep 5, 2019

Thesaurus posted:

I can only poo poo post... I mean no disrespect to the Caribbean peoples!

Tell us, what is an environmental problem near your peoples?

# ? Sep 8, 2020 02:31

Thesaurus: Oct 3, 2004

UnknownTarget posted:

Tell us, what is an environmental problem near your peoples?

the only problem I've got is that I can't go to the god drat BEACH without governor Wanda's covid cops hassling me. It's like a heist movie every time we try to relax.

Otherwise, the daily threat of ultra hurricanes this time of year is concerning. Just white knuckle refreshing nhc.gov multiple times per day. I sense that people who grew up in this region don't let it affect them as much.

I also don't "get" the water outages. Before the first tropical storm a key reservoir was running dry. I come from a place with droughts but no beaches. How can there be both hurricanes and droughts??

also a tree blew over in a regular thunderstorm wind the other day. It knocked over some electrical poles, which somehow disabled all electricity in a large neighborhood for almost 24 hours. So my whole part of the city just depends on one wire??

what I'm trying to say is that infrastructure is important and Puerto Rico forces me to think about it daily (moreso in the DR, but without the backdrop of "American citizenship"), whereas in the states it's usually invisible.

# ? Sep 8, 2020 03:00

Declan MacManus: Sep 1, 2011; damn i'm really in this bitch

i wish i could talk about the rest of the caribbean but i only know stuff about puerto rico :smith:

# ? Sep 8, 2020 13:57

UnknownTarget: Sep 5, 2019

I really want to visit PR. I went there once and there was this awesome waterfall. I also want to visit Vieques. Now that it's not a bombing range it seems like that area of the island would be amazing to see. It's all cleaned up right? No unexploded ordinance?

# ? Sep 8, 2020 14:43

cool dance moves: Aug 27, 2018

I would highly recommend sticking to spots that are marked safe. I dont think theres much UXO lying around but that's not really the kind of thing you want to take risks on...

Some cool rusted-out tanks, tho

# ? Sep 8, 2020 14:49

cool dance moves: Aug 27, 2018

I too am ignorant of the other islands :smith:

hopefully other goons in the know will drift to this thread and set us straight

# ? Sep 8, 2020 14:50

UnknownTarget: Sep 5, 2019

drat that's awesome.

I was doing some flying around in MSFS2020 and I was trying to pinpoint my location using the two VORs on STT and PR. I ended up with some cool art I think.

Only registered members can see post attachments!

# ? Sep 8, 2020 14:51

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# ? Apr 29, 2024 02:11

UnknownTarget: Sep 5, 2019

BTW I am only familiar with the USVI. Happy to talk about it and/or learn about the other islands as well.

I think it's interesting that the PR people and USVI people don't know much about each other's islands, even though we're right next to each other and part of the same larger country.

# ? Sep 8, 2020 15:12

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > The Caribbean: privatizing the canary in the coal mine

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