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CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





Duet wins a , even though i'd seen it before it still hits pretty good. Very good acting and story.

Paradise was meh. It as a perfectly fine version of the whole "ludite colony tricked by it's elders" story, but the ending felt like the writers sort of missed the real human reaction to something like that and were signing off on everything that rear end in a top hat did. So it gets a

Improbable Cause gets a cause it was fun watching everyone react while Garrack (sp?) had a plan the whole time.

It's Only A Paper Moon there for hitting a very serious and unfortunately personal event in a good way, and Vic was pretty cool. If I find out that this is literally never a thing that comes up or is mentioned again i'd be kind of dissapointed.

Treachery, Faith and the Great River Jeffrey Combs can carry A LOT of star trek on his own, but not this episode.

Shakaar gently caress yea! Always stick it to space karen. I hate that lady.

Boogle
AlternateNu
docbeard
josh04


All get one probate to hand out to anyone who made the watch list in the OP.

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Mx.
Dec 16, 2006

am i tired or am i angry




You're gonna need to put Little Green Men on that watchlist. S4E8
It's Quark at Roswell

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"

Miss posted:

You're gonna need to put Little Green Men on that watchlist. S4E8
It's Quark at Roswell

I WANT MY MOOGIE!!!

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

Your vitals soar.


Actually, the one with the Moogie is not bad. Second City's Andrea Martin guest stars, once, and is replaced by a different actress who is not as good. BUT the og still stands and I rec, "Family Business," a depiction of weirdo ferengi homeworld culture.

Boogle
Sep 1, 2004



Nap Ghost

CainFortea posted:

All get one probate to hand out to anyone who made the watch list in the OP.

I choose Peanut President because...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRRbYE9jRCk#t=12s

Mx.
Dec 16, 2006

am i tired or am i angry




mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

This displeases Dev- ..van. Shut up.


CainFortea posted:

By the by, I guess I wasn't clear.

mercenarynuker
FunkyAl
mysterious frankie

Ya'all get to pick someone who submitted an episode on the watch list for a 6er.

Thanks to my recent sixer I have learned the value of clemency, and so choose to probe NO ONE.

AlternateNu
May 5, 2005

"すやぁ~じゃなくて!"



mysterious frankie posted:

Thanks to my recent sixer I have learned the value of clemency, and so choose to probe NO ONE.



I have no enemies in this thread. Of course, if this extended to the whole forum, I have a few choice targets.

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





AlternateNu posted:



I have no enemies in this thread. Of course, if this extended to the whole forum, I have a few choice targets.

You can always try to convince them to partake in the game!

mercenarynuker
Sep 10, 2008

i am the bruce of the willis


mysterious frankie posted:

Thanks to my recent sixer I have learned the value of clemency, and so choose to probe NO ONE.

Look at this evolved human, who so embodies the root beer ideals of the Federation. It's insidious

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

This displeases Dev- ..van. Shut up.


mercenarynuker posted:

Look at this evolved human, who so embodies the root beer ideals of the Federation. It's insidious

Dont worry. Before you know it, you値l like the flavor

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

This displeases Dev- ..van. Shut up.


Miss posted:

You're gonna need to put Little Green Men on that watchlist. S4E8
It's Quark at Roswell

Agreed, it's lots of fun. Quark, Rom and Mog get a whole episode to interact. Only shame is Odo has such limited screen time; his interplay with the group and a little more energetic story (maybe a two parter where they're on the run for a bit) would have made it an all time great ep, instead of just a very good one.

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
the forum where people post about insurance in case they have to kill someone is mad at this guy again lol

mysterious frankie posted:

Agreed, it's lots of fun. Quark, Rom and Mog get a whole episode to interact. Only shame is Odo has such limited screen time; his interplay with the group and a little more energetic story (maybe a two parter where they're on the run for a bit) would have made it an all time great ep, instead of just a very good one.

also nog is a huge human-aboo

Mx.
Dec 16, 2006

am i tired or am i angry




Cease to Hope posted:

also nog is a huge human-aboo

also quark being like "this bell riots guy looks an awful lot like captain sisko" on the way over is a great moment

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

This displeases Dev- ..van. Shut up.


Cease to Hope posted:

also nog is a huge human-aboo

That implication that Rom spent most of his time imprisoned getting handjobs from an unwitting nurse.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




A big part of Rom and Nog's arcs is realising that Ferengi society views them solely as marks to be exploited, while human (or rather, Federation) society actually gives them opportunities for advancement and to get respect for their skills.

On that note, In The Cards might be an interesting episode if you can deal with shenanigans, Jake and Nog make an interesting duo. There's an earlier one I can't remember where they actually go into business, and it's Jake who teaches Nog about the idea of non-liquid assets having potential value. 'Treachery, Faith, and the Great River' also comes to mind as a fun Nog episode, possibly implying Nog had a second look at Ferengi philosophy with his experiences in mind and had a new appreciation for value, including sentimental and non-material value. A big part of Nog's characterisation is that he embraces the opportunities the Federation gives him, but doesn't entirely leave his Ferengi culture behind, but taking the best lessons from both. An interesting theme, given Ferengi culture is portrayed as the closest equivalent to late 20th century human culture, contrasted with the idealistic, basically socialist nature of the Federation.

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

This displeases Dev- ..van. Shut up.


Ghost Leviathan posted:

basically socialist nature of the Federation.

So I知 asking as much as saying, but is the Federation really socialist? I know earth basically is and, by extension, Starfleet, since it grew from a previous human institution and humans have a stranglehold on leadership, but the Federation seems more like a vast collection of social democracies with a planet-sized Waldorf School at its center.

David D. Davidson
Nov 17, 2012

Orca lady?

Well it is supposed to be a post scarcity society.

docbeard
Jul 18, 2011

Modern worldly poster

mysterious frankie posted:

So I知 asking as much as saying, but is the Federation really socialist? I know earth basically is and, by extension, Starfleet, since it grew from a previous human institution and humans have a stranglehold on leadership, but the Federation seems more like a vast collection of social democracies with a planet-sized Waldorf School at its center.

They're basically what any given story needs them to be. "Post-scarcity social democracy" seems to get closest in the TNG/DS9 era, with the caveat that "post-scarcity" doesn't necessarily completely apply to places outside of Earth and, presumably, the other founding planets. (TOS was definitely not post-scarcity; a bunch of stories are about the need to secure resources on this or that planet.)

Semi-related: notice how the Tellarites basically never get mentioned at all after that one TOS episode, despite being founding members of the Federation? Are they mentioned at all in Enterprise, even?

Pick
Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

They are seen in enterprise

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




mysterious frankie posted:

So I知 asking as much as saying, but is the Federation really socialist? I know earth basically is and, by extension, Starfleet, since it grew from a previous human institution and humans have a stranglehold on leadership, but the Federation seems more like a vast collection of social democracies with a planet-sized Waldorf School at its center.

An open question, but that they don't really have an internal currency of their own and have heirarchies based mostly on merit, and that capitalists find themselves perplexed at best by their society heavily suggests it. It's also not necessarily human ran, DS9 has an episode featuring the Federation president, who's an alien of a species we haven't seen before or since. (and, amusingly, mentions he didn't choose to run for the office)

If anything, I always felt there's a clear Vulcan influence on Federation values and policy, the Prime Directive in particular is apparently taken from them.

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

This displeases Dev- ..van. Shut up.


Ghost Leviathan posted:

An open question, but that they don't really have an internal currency of their own and have heirarchies based mostly on merit, and that capitalists find themselves perplexed at best by their society heavily suggests it. It's also not necessarily human ran, DS9 has an episode featuring the Federation president, who's an alien of a species we haven't seen before or since. (and, amusingly, mentions he didn't choose to run for the office)

If anything, I always felt there's a clear Vulcan influence on Federation values and policy, the Prime Directive in particular is apparently taken from them.

I thought the Federation overall still uses a currency based economy (credits, which I assume are backed purely by the strength of the Federation). Earth has an economy vaguely based on personal and cultural betterment, but the Federation overall seems to trade money for labor and goods. Again, I知 asking as much as saying.

Also just to clarify I was saying Starfleet seems largely human run at the top, not the Federation as a whole.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




mysterious frankie posted:

I thought the Federation overall still uses a currency based economy (credits, which I assume are backed purely by the strength of the Federation). Earth has an economy vaguely based on personal and cultural betterment, but the Federation overall seems to trade money for labor and goods. Again, I知 asking as much as saying.

Also just to clarify I was saying Starfleet seems largely human run at the top, not the Federation as a whole.

Key thing is that TOS era clearly isn't post-scarcity yet, 'credits' are mentioned and a lot of episodes revolve around acquisition and distribution of resources, and human businessmen (mostly Harry Mudd) are still a major thing. TNG and DS9 have a Federation that seems very materially secure, enthusiastically engages in humanitarianism and foreign aid, and treats capitalism as something quaint at best, dangerous at worst. (Quark outright says that hu-mons clearly hold the Ferengi in contempt because they remind humanity of their past that they consider shameful)

But yeah, the Starfleet crews we do see are majority human, though later shows do make an effort to mix it up a bit. DS9 I think does do this a lot- a minor but interesting thing in context is when Jadzia takes Kira to a Camelot holoprogram, which ends in hilarious misunderstandings; both are aliens from very different cultures engaging in a recreation of a culture that's alien to both. Still say there's a missed opportunity for Bashir and O'Brien to invite Martok or a Klingon one-off to the Alamo holoprogram, they'd probably love it. (Is funny that Worf is clearly familiar with the scenario and has little interest in it, since being raised on Earth it's nothing novel to him)

There's also the bit where Eddington compares the Federation to the Borg- significant I think since the Borg are often called a clear sci-fi analogue to Communist stereotypes, wanting to subjugate all other peoples and cultures into a homogenous mass. (Rather than your typical alien nazis who want to exterminate all others. See also Cybermen vs Daleks)

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





We know that Federation people will use currency as needed, or for a "for fun" kind of thing. Riker not only offers to delete the latinum vouchers that Quark gave him for winning at the gaming tables, but was willing to trust Quark because in the end he really didn't need it or anything, he just wanted to play the game.

It seems to me like they aren't a 100% post scarcity, but they're probably like 80% there. Outside of plot events like natural disasters or someone actively being a dick, no one is hungry, or without shelter. Everyone is pretty much free to pursue whatever gives them fulfillment. They still might need to go searching for some special ore or gas or something, but I can't recall any time past TOS that anyone from the federation does it to make money, it's usually something to power some fancy science experiment or something.

docbeard
Jul 18, 2011

Modern worldly poster

CainFortea posted:

We know that Federation people will use currency as needed, or for a "for fun" kind of thing. Riker not only offers to delete the latinum vouchers that Quark gave him for winning at the gaming tables, but was willing to trust Quark because in the end he really didn't need it or anything, he just wanted to play the game.

It seems to me like they aren't a 100% post scarcity, but they're probably like 80% there. Outside of plot events like natural disasters or someone actively being a dick, no one is hungry, or without shelter. Everyone is pretty much free to pursue whatever gives them fulfillment. They still might need to go searching for some special ore or gas or something, but I can't recall any time past TOS that anyone from the federation does it to make money, it's usually something to power some fancy science experiment or something.

I think we can probably assume that replicator technology as it exists in the TNG/DS9/Voyager era was still pretty bare-bones in TOS, if it existed at all. (We see some food dispensers onboard the Enterprise but it's not clear that they're the same thing at all). Since even things like food and medicine were still goods that had to be negotiated for (and a major plot point in an early TOS episode involved a planet Kirk lived on as a child suffering an intense famine). I think most of their conflicts with the Klingons came down to resources, too.

There are still things like "we need to make nice with this government to get them to manufacture a vaccine for us" in certain intensely racist episodes of TNG, for example, but I think most resource struggles in the TNG era come more down to things that just can't be manufactured or replicated, or in places where replicators themselves or the energy to power them are in short supply (like newly-established colony worlds in disputed territories, for example).

mercenarynuker
Sep 10, 2008

i am the bruce of the willis


So about Starfleet being human-centric:
It literally evolved from the human military/defense/exploration force, per Enterprise (and that's even before Space Force ). I read a supposition once that you see a lot of humans on vessels because true interspecies vessels might be difficult to accommodate due to varying biology (ignore that one TNG episode for sake of this argument please). That is to say, you can't have the argon-breathers on a human vessel, the atmospheres just don't gel. Hell, even Vulcans may prefer a more Vulcan-centric ship, as the psychic noise is probably diminished, and the ambient temperature rests a few onkians higher, mimicking their desert world.

So the vessels we see are those aliens who are willing to crew on a human-centric ship, and suffer the attendant environmental mismatches for whatever reason. Maybe for cross-training on a command track or something? Possible. The species most familiar with Starfleet are probably going to have been part of the Federation for the longest, and consequently that's why we probably see more Vulcans (and Bolians for some reason...?).

A lot of the newer races probably have sizable self-defense forces yet that their people serve in that may be seen as more prestigious, or any number of other things. I think, ultimately, that Starfleet seems human-centric primarily by virtue of the fact that we're human, and can empathize more with a single Black dad than a single Cardassian father, despite wide similarities in their careers

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"

The literary reason for Starfleet being human-centric is also because Star Trek is a human adventure. Aliens are there to help highlight our own virtues and vices.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhOOfwNA0es

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
the forum where people post about insurance in case they have to kill someone is mad at this guy again lol

Also there's currently no good way to cast actual aliens

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





Bar Association - gently caress yea labor! Also good on O'Brian starting poo poo with Worf for crossing the picket line.

Looking for par'Mach in All the Wrong Places - I kinda wanted to like it, but for some reason it just fell flat.

Civil Defense - I was pretty blah through this one until Dukat showed up and suddenly the whole episode cranks to 11. Also Dukat seems very short.

Take Me Out To The Holosuite - If there is anything in the universe more boring than baseball i've never seen it. Even adding aliens it's not enjoyable.

Rules of Engagement - Gets a for having the scenes where characters are talking to the camera while describing events. Other than that, pretty bog standard faked evidence trial.

Little Green Men - I don't know what moogie is, but poor rom.

Lots of winners in this batch.


Jonny 290
docbeard
Snugglecakes
Miss


Ya'all get to pick someone else from the list to probe.

Peanut President - You pay the price for baseball!

Edit: I don't want to probe the same post twice so, you get away with just knowing that you picked awfully!

CainFortea fucked around with this message at 15:28 on Oct 3, 2020

Grand Fromage
Jan 30, 2006

L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?




CainFortea posted:

until Dukat showed up and suddenly the whole episode cranks to 11

This is a good ds9.txt

ATTENTION BAJORAN POSTERS

mercenarynuker
Sep 10, 2008

i am the bruce of the willis


I am going to needlessly rejoin the fight and formally recommend The Magnificent Ferengi (S06E10). There's probably a lot I could say about this episode, but I'll keep it short and perplexing: Iggy Pop is perhaps the best Vorta?!?!

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





Grand Fromage posted:

This is a good ds9.txt

ATTENTION BAJORAN POSTERS

Seriously is that dude like 5'?

AlternateNu
May 5, 2005

"すやぁ~じゃなくて!"



CainFortea posted:

Seriously is that dude like 5'?

Marc Alaimo is 6', soooo.

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





huh, he looks way shorter than that. I just assumed they picked a short actor to make it seem like he's got short guy syndrome

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

Your vitals soar.


Cardassians wear wide clothing.

Grand Fromage
Jan 30, 2006

L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?




Also he has a giraffe neck which makes the proportions stranger.

Fun fact: Alaimo played the very first Cardassian, and the reason they have the lizard neck business is because his was so long that they incorporated that into the design.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012


Grand Fromage posted:

This is a good ds9.txt

Well, until the final 10 episodes

Tulip
Jun 3, 2008

I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth; I am a citizen of the world.




AlternateNu posted:

Marc Alaimo is 6', soooo.

I was wondering if Siddig (Bashir) was significantly taller and got this answer:

Grand Fromage
Jan 30, 2006

L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?




Tulip posted:

I was wondering if Siddig (Bashir) was significantly taller and got this answer:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yn8DX0iJSk#t=100s

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Mx.
Dec 16, 2006

am i tired or am i angry




I would like to probate myself, in recognition of my many successes

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

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