Make me like DS9 and you win a prize.

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Sci-Fi Wi-Fi > Make me like DS9 and you win a prize.

Pick: Jul 19, 2009; Nap Ghost

Tell us a bit about you--do you like funny episodes? Serious episodes? Any big turn-offs?

# ¿ Sep 23, 2020 20:38

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# ¿ Apr 26, 2024 04:31

Pick: Jul 19, 2009; Nap Ghost

All right. I got summoned in the Tumblr-star-trek thread. So I'm going to participate, in a way.

But ultimately, this is half an explanation and half a confession.

First, explanation: Deep Space 9 is simply not a Trek that is all that fun if you approach it with a shotgun approach to episodes. It's compelling because of its broader themes, which often take time, and because of its characters, where the characterization needs gradual breathing room to develop and in some cases to change. There's no "great Dukat" episode, singular, without knowing who Dukat is and his relationship with other people. I love "Civil Defense" but it is entirely an episode that plays on character dynamics you already know, and because it provides contrast to more serious episodes. I really like "Once More Unto the Breach", but unless you understand Martok and his role in the show, it's only mildly interesting. For a character to become a great character, we need to see them in a variety of circumstances, making a variety of choices, so we get to intuitively understand them beyond what we're told about them. Much more than TNG, every DS9 character represents a set of values and to some extent an ideology. (e.g., Garak is realpolitik.)

Similarly, the themes of DS9 are usually not self-contained. The major themes are certainly not self-contained.

Now let's just segue into the confession: I do not like Deep Space 9 as intended.

I think this is where some people get tripped up. I love TOS (my favorite) and like TNG. I like them as intended. I like them the way they were, essentially, designed to be liked. I think, if I were in a conversation with the writers and the showrunners, we'd mostly be on the same page about what the episodes are doing, why they're doing it, and the message that was communicated in the process. (More so for TOS than TNG, where I do think TNG has not always aged well and/or more often, in the interests of "complexity", TNG semi-regularly told a really messed-up moral that doesn't adhere to its own purported internal logic).

I do not like Deep Space 9 "as intended". I think DS9 is a great idea, in theory. It's a deconstruction, on its face. It makes no bones about that; Sisko dang near says as much, to Picard, in the pilot. (Or when he punches Q.) And I generally agree with the things that Deep Space 9 tells you it is saying.

What I love about Deep Space 9 is that it always shows you, the opposite. Of its own theme. It has characters say and do things with a fascinating level of self-righteousness, despite often being shown to be wrong, in their own universe, without the show apparently being aware of this. It's a deconstruction that got the "moral of the story" right, and tells you what the moral is, but doesn't realize that's not the story it just showed you.

Take for example, this post from our Anonymous Zebra:

Anonymous Zebra posted:

While it's fun and all that we're talking about TNG in the DS9 thread, I figured I'd try and get things a back on track with a hot take:

"The Dominion was completely justified in starting a war against the Federation."

Wait, wait, don't walk away yet. I'm not claiming the Dominion was a good and just government, simply that most of their actions as portrayed in the show were reasonable responses to the actions of their opponents. Stick with me here, this is pretty long.

So, lets look at the series from the Dominion's point of view. Sisko discovers the wormhole and a bunch of random ships start flying through and exploring/colonizing/exploiting the things they find on the other side. Almost immediately in Season 1 we see that other space-faring civilizations live in the Gamma Quadrant, but no mention is made of the Federation checking to see if anyone already claims any of this space. Let's make the fair assumption that the Federation/Alpha quadrant are not aware of the Dominion at this point, so they're not being intentionally aggressive, but they are being a little naive in not analyzing the political landscape of their new unexplored frontier.

Now Season 2. At this point the name "Dominion" is being repeated by alien species the Federation encounters. By episode 6 of the season the loving Grand Nagus has discerned that there is a powerful political entity in the Gamma Quadrant, yet Star Fleet is still shrugging their shoulders even when a race of refugees fly through the wormhole and mention that their former overlords were conquered by "The Dominion". At this point Starfleet is sending poo poo tons of ships through the wormhole and even the Bajorans are forming permanent colonies in the Gamma Quadrant. Now, whether it's fair or not, The Dominion believes that the whole area around the Wormhole is part of their territory and at this point a bunch of aliens have been showing up and pooping in their backyards.

So now lets get the first real encounter with the Dominion. The Season 2 finale "The Jem'hadar". The Jem'hadar ambush Sisko (and Quark) on a random Gamma Quadrant planet and lock him up, meanwhile they apparently attack and wipe out the Bajoran colony, then they proceed to fly a ship through the wormhole and with mighty big-dick-energy beam onto Ops to calmly tell the Federation to "STOP COMING THROUGH THE WORMHOLE". Sisko also has a conversation with one of his jailers who also says, "YOU ARE VIOLATING DOMINION SPACE AND WE WILL NOT TOLERATE IT ANYMORE!" Ok, so they came at this like huge assholes, but The Dominion most likely wanted to scare the poo poo out of the Federation by showing overwhelming military power while delivering a very explicit message (we also learn that they always intended to let Sisko escape so that he would carry the message, and the Vorta spy, back home). So another civilization just showed up and said, "Plz stop coming into our space.", so what does Starfleet do? They send a loving Galaxy class starship right into the Gamma Quadrant. Again, the Dominion responds with overwhelming military force, but then LETS THE RUNABOUTS retreat. At this point the Dominion has not indicated that they give a poo poo about the Alpha Quadrant.

Season 3. Jesus Christ, Starfleet makes buddies with the Romulans and builds a goddamn cloaking warship for the sole purpose of flying deep into Dominion territory to find the goddamn Founders. What the gently caress guys?! So they learn that the Founder are a species that is deeply distrustful and fearful of other aliens and that The Dominion is a giant wall of violence to protect them. Ok, good thing The Founders have nothing to worry about in the Alpha Quadrant....then the Obsidian Order and the Tal Shiar decide to build a fleet, fly it into the Gamma Quadrant for the sole purpose of killing all the Founders, and a loving Starfleet admiral jokes about wishing them luck. This Season ends with that Changeling on the Defiant getting killed by Odo.

Season 4. This season involves the completely reasonable intelligence ops the Dominions carries out on the Alpha powers. They trick the Klingons into going to war against the Cardassians, and cause all that ruckus on Earth. The season ends with them further loving with Starfleet by convincing Odo that Gowron is a Changeling. These moves are aggressive, but the Alpha powers at this point have demonstrated that they are aggressive towards the Changeling, and basically every major power on modern Earth engages in this kind of spycraft without it being an act of war.

Season 5. Episode loving 2 Sisko and his team are loving around in the Gamma Quadrant when a Jem�hadar ship crashes on the planet. Is Starfleet at war with the Dominion? Nope. So why the gently caress are they on the wrong side of the wormhole when another civilization has told them that it violates their space? Okay, so Sisko lays claim to this ship and a Vorta shows up and says, �Yo, that�s ours, give it back.� and Sisko is like, �Nope, mine now!� despite the fact that it crash landed IN THE GAMMA QUADRANT, which is DOMINION SPACE! In any case, a changeling dies because of this and Sisko is all like, �Why didn�t you trust us enough to tell us about the Changeling� and the Vorta is just like �WTF is wrong with these humans.�

Season 5 is when the war starts though, so let's go into detail on exactly HOW this war started. The Dominion finally flies ships through the wormhole, to attack?! Nope! The ships turn towards Caradassia because Gul Dukat, as a duly recognized representative of the civilian government of Cardassia, has negotiated a treaty where the Dominion recognizes Cardassian territory as a protectorate, and thus it is completely legally sending ships through the (neutral space) wormhole to protect it�s new ally. And Cardassia has a completely valid reason to do this, they are being stymied by the Maquis and are getting their poo poo kicked in by the Klingons. The Dominion solves these problems for them quite readily.

So here is the thing. The Dominion keeps sending ships through the wormhole, but they never ATTACK the Federation. The Federation literally forces a war when they MINE THE loving WORMHOLE. Remember, the wormhole is supposed to be neutral space. Starfleet has sure been acting like they can fly through it whenever they want, so why can�t the Dominion? So they mine the wormhole and shots finally get fired...rest of the series follows.

TL;DR: Starfleet antagonizes and ignores the many diplomatic/military threats of the Dominion, forcing the Dominion to finally start a shooting war just to open up their supply lines back to their home territory.

Anonymous Zebra posted:

The Federation, Klingons, Romulans, and Cardassians combined were no match for The Dominion. The combined powers didn't beat The Dominion, they beat a tiny fragment that was cut off from the rest by space gods living in a wormhole, and only at a huge cost. Remember, there was always an existential threat that MORE ships were just sitting on the other side of the wormhole, and the only thing stopping that was a minefield and later The Prophets.

There was no calculus The Founders needed to make. They were more technically advanced, had greater numbers, and their enemies were fragmented and easily swayed by Intel attacks. The only reason they lost (the tiny fragment of ships in the alpha, and 1 founder) was because of space gods that they couldn't have predicted would suddenly become active.

I think that post is exactly right. Now, I do think they showed a Dominion where war is inevitable. But then they have other characters act like they've correctly identified that it's inevitable (e.g. Tain), and they're punished for it. The actions of the Federation are only excusable if it was inevitable. Huh??

Over and over, DS9 tries so hard to "break down" the TNG-era Federation and writing style and approach. And time and time again, it congratulates itself for doing so, despite setting up a scenario that is obviously rigged, but rigged against their own conclusion. Their overall conclusion is, I think, almost always right, but they structure something that forces the opposite, and never seem to realize it. Not just that these things are decoupled: the exact opposite. It's not a 1:1, it's a 1:-1. It happens with the Maquis. It happens with the Dominion War. It happens with Dukat. It happens with Kira. It happens over and over and over. It's honestly baffling. I've never seen anything like it.

I've been way into DS9 for like two years and chat about it almost every day with my fellow ds9 buddies, but the well never runs dry on how vast the divide is between what the show thinks it's doing and what it's actually doing. The actual logical implications of what it's actually showing you are bizarre on closer examination.

I find DS9 incredibly compelling, incredibly engrossing, because it's this, but a show:

It knows the right answer but absolutely shoots itself in the dick for seven seasons getting there.

So do I like Deep Space 9? In a lot of ways........................ no, actually. But I LOVE to discuss deep space 9.

So anyway, "House of Quark" is pretty good.

Pick fucked around with this message at 04:39 on Sep 26, 2020

# ¿ Sep 26, 2020 04:33

Pick: Jul 19, 2009; Nap Ghost

Oh, also OP, I don't really like "gray Federation" much myself. I see the Federation as aspirational, which was best communicated to the audience in TOS. That's why TOS is my favorite (and TAS my second-favorite!) Focusing on the Federation per se too much, I think, is a mistake. I think the Federation is a set of deals which people like Admiral Cartwright can fail. But that its ideals are fundamentally good, and people are good for adhering to them.

mercenarynuker posted:

This is bullshit, Pick. You haven't even talked about how those Vulcans are loving pricks about baseball

Edit: spoilers, Vulcans are loving pricks about baseball

I actually do not like that episode, or the heist episode, at all :v:

.

I also find the baseball episode fascinating in the context of being bookended by an existential war, the exact situation where victory is not "the friends you made along the way" and "trying your best".

Pick fucked around with this message at 04:53 on Sep 26, 2020

# ¿ Sep 26, 2020 04:43

Pick: Jul 19, 2009; Nap Ghost

oh and if you don't like "the wire" you're a homophobe. go to jail.

# ¿ Sep 26, 2020 05:02

Pick: Jul 19, 2009; Nap Ghost

I did, I did recommend House of Quark.

It is actually internally thematically coherent, fun, and has quite a bit of characterization even in 47 minutes.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ¿ Sep 26, 2020 23:21

Pick: Jul 19, 2009; Nap Ghost

They are seen in enterprise

# ¿ Oct 2, 2020 18:42

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# ¿ Apr 26, 2024 04:31

Pick: Jul 19, 2009; Nap Ghost

the wire is 100% worth it for Enabran Tain, an actual realistic look at how amicable a lot of truly terrifying people are in similar administrations

for further reading, "How to Feed a Dictator" is one of my top fun books of 2020 (tales from the chefs of dictators, e.g. idi amin and pol pot)

# ¿ Oct 5, 2020 06:04

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