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yea ok posted:It made no sense to me to see people's rap sheets full of sixers, then 3 days or a week randomly, then back to sixers when they continued to exhibit the same behavior without change. That's when I would PM you, because you were doing a bad job. I do not believe that you are receptive to feedback like you claim based on literally years of evidence. I honestly really don't grasp how changing to a fixed progression of increasing probation lengths for problem posters is NOT being receptive to the feedback of,"You are not being consistent in increasing probation lengths for problem posters". I'm sorry you don't like how I moderate FIGHT ISLAND, but from the start of my time in this role I've gone out of my way to take onboard feedback, to do my best not to let any personal feelings dictate my decisions, and overall make this a place that people can use for its intended purpose of talking about pro-wrestling. You may not agree, and that's too bad, but go ahead and continue to tell me when you think I'm doing something wrong, and I'll continue to file it away with every other piece of feedback I get and use to get a sense of how people want this place to be.
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Sep 30, 2020 12:32
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Jerusalem posted:Yes, because I caught up on the thread, answered mfcrocker's question first, followed up on it in the mod forum as I said I would, then came back and responded to yea ok, then saw your post declaring I was ignoring him. i think you have a history of ignoring people and problems and you want an easy, bland, ozma-era forum where you don't have to deal with more than one sort of personality. i think you're very slow to act on anything and your answer is always "i will discuss this with the other mods in the secret mod chamber, please pm me if you have any more problems," and nothing ever seems to happen after that.
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Sep 30, 2020 12:36
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Seth Rollins posted:i dunno, i think i'd have more peace of mind about it if you'd write some examples of unacceptable horny posting. i really don't want to accidentally break a rule. Just want to point out that this isn’t even remotely an unreasonable or trolling request to want clarification and I’m not sure why someone would get probed for it. Like yea ok said, there is a world of difference between “cum gutters” and other types of posts. What if a wrestler opens an OnlyFans to supplement their income, is that allowed to be linked to in the Social Media thread to help support that wrestler? The way things are stated I would assume I would be probated if I posted it. I’ve seen many communities and social media use these type of blanket vague rules as a cudgel to create a SWERFy environment. And to clarify, I’m not saying that’s where we’re at now in terms of moderation, at all. It would only help to distinguish between the kind of behavior that is harmful and harmless to a community.
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Sep 30, 2020 12:37
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Seth Rollins posted:i think you're very slow to act on anything and your answer is always "i will discuss this with the other mods in the secret mod chamber, please pm me if you have any more problems," and nothing ever seems to happen after that. It was less than 3 hours to answer his post, and you're literally posting this in a thread I created for open, public feedback on moderation issues. Seth Rollins posted:i think you have a history of ignoring people and problems I have had literally one person on my ignore list (not from FIGHT ISLAND) since I first joined SomethingAwful, and I have gone out of my way to respond to and reply to messages and questions from people whenever they have been sent to me, and about the only time I don't reply is when they're bitterly angry obscenity laden tirades.
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Sep 30, 2020 12:42
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Jerusalem posted:It was less than 3 hours to answer his post, and you're literally posting this in a thread I created for open, public feedback on moderation issues. if you think i am talking about the ignore list feature of the forums, then i have no idea what to say to you. edit: and when i say slow to act, i mean stuff like waiting several years to ban rovert. i'm not sure how you could be misunderstanding me so badly. Shayna Baszler fucked around with this message at 12:48 on Sep 30, 2020 |
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Sep 30, 2020 12:45
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JUNGLE BOY posted:Just want to point out that this isn’t even remotely an unreasonable or trolling request to want clarification and I’m not sure why someone would get probed for it. Messages from Seth Rollins to me before (I did not see and read it till after the probation) and after the probation confirmed that they were not actually seeking any kind of clarification with their posts at all, they thought it was a good joke.
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Sep 30, 2020 12:52
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Seth Rollins posted:edit: and when i say slow to act, i mean stuff like waiting several years to ban rovert. i'm not sure how you could be misunderstanding me so badly. In the two years I was moderator and rovert was active, I banned him 3 times (and gave him multiple probations besides). A permaban was considered a step too far but the admins at the time wanted to try out a subforum ban as an experiment, with the agreement that if it didn't work a permaban would be considered. Happily, it worked.
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Sep 30, 2020 12:57
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Jerusalem posted:Messages from Seth Rollins to me before (I did not see and read it till after the probation) and after the probation confirmed that they were not actually seeking any kind of clarification with their posts at all, they thought it was a good joke. it's possible to be funny while also having a point. i know this is a foreign concept to a lot of people here. i still legitimately don't know what the line is, but because i try to be a little funny on the comedy forums, i am dismissed and probated. i wanted you to write the examples because you are are the least horny person here, and you writing them would be funny. at the same time, it would illuminate what is and is not acceptable. but you think i'm trolling you by trying to have some fun with you and lighten the mood. come on dude. Jerusalem posted:In the two years I was moderator and rovert was active, I banned him 3 times (and gave him multiple probations besides). A permaban was considered a step too far but the admins at the time wanted to try out a subforum ban as an experiment, with the agreement that if it didn't work a permaban would be considered. Happily, it worked. so we only had to deal with him for two years Shayna Baszler fucked around with this message at 13:02 on Sep 30, 2020 |
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Sep 30, 2020 13:00
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mfcrocker posted:I'd like a caveat to this. We had a situation when the LGBT+ megathread was in E/N where we needed to warn people about a predatory goon and the E/N mod at the time went absolutely bananas with their buttons about offsite drama. This situation largely led to the mod in question ending up being removed and I don't want to see the mods here make the same mistake. The following addendum has been added: In the (hopefully) rare event that you discover via an off-site that a poster from this subforum is involved in something extremely serious/dangerous/criminal etc, then please get into immediate contact with an admin (feel free to bypass the mods entirely, we'd only be passing it directly on to them anyway) with whatever proof you have so they can take whatever action is necessary, whether that be a permaban or getting into contact with relevant authorities or both. --- Hopefully this answers your concerns?
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Sep 30, 2020 13:23
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Jerusalem posted:The following addendum has been added: Not particularly, I don't have faith that telling the admins that a goon is predating on goons off-site would lead to action (in fact I'd fully expect them to shrug their shoulders and say "oh well its not our problem"), but it's better than nothing. E: this isn't necessarily your problem, I just haven't had very much faith in the leadership of this site for a very long time now
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Sep 30, 2020 13:31
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As long as the politically broken posts and posters are dealt with quickly, I have no real issue with the rules as presented.
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Sep 30, 2020 13:41
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Jerusalem posted:I honestly really don't grasp how changing to a fixed progression of increasing probation lengths for problem posters is NOT being receptive to the feedback of,"You are not being consistent in increasing probation lengths for problem posters". Jerusalem, I love you, but I really don't think you're understanding what people are saying. I'm not as prolific a poster as I used to be here (honestly, for some of the same reasons people are complaining about), so maybe I shouldn't even be commenting. But a fixed progression doesn't address the overall issue of "mods need to display better judgment when modding FI" (of which "ramping up problem posters" is a sub-issue), it moves to a system where there's almost no judgment, and makes it so any discussion of probations feels pointless because "it was done according to The Rules." If someone's borderline hornyposting ("Anna Jay!  ") but not for the first time while someone's gross hornyposting ("cum gutters," and I hate how many times I've seen that phrase) for the first time, and someone's taking a history of snide-but-deniable comments attacking poster X and finally crossing a probe-worthy line ("run X out of the thread and the thread'll be good again") while someone else with a history of 6ers posts something jokingly over-the-top toward the snide poster ("run Y off a cliff Looney-Tunes style so they don't even start falling" in response), it's entirely possible that last poster is going to get the longest probation and the first poster the next-longest, even though the two in the middle are the ones actually displaying behavior that drives people away. Similarly, if eight people hornypost to the point of getting sixers in one GDT, that's all well and good according to The Rules, but people are just going to see a bunch of hornyposts and probably not even notice the probes because of how quickly a GDT moves, and the thread is going to feel like people are getting away with hornyposting.Ramping people up only works if it's the same people doing it over and over. It doesn't work if everyone understands the modding to be "you can get away with it, and even if you get caught, it's only a 6er until you're really on the mods' radar." When the forum is complaining that obvious problem posters are allowed to stick around for months or years and the mods are saying "yes, that was done correctly" or don't even necessarily agree that those posters are problems, there's a divide that really needs to be bridged. When the forum is complaining that the wrong people are being probed, adding a gradual incline to probes doesn't solve anything and probably just drives the divide wider. Jerusalem posted:In the two years I was moderator and rovert was active, I banned him 3 times (and gave him multiple probations besides). A permaban was considered a step too far but the admins at the time wanted to try out a subforum ban as an experiment, with the agreement that if it didn't work a permaban would be considered. Happily, it worked. This example in particular. rovert is effectively permabanned; he hasn't posted anywhere else since his ban from this forum. Saying "we got rid of him long after the rest of the forum wanted him gone, and we did so by permabanning him in a way that isn't bureaucratically a permaban!" really sounds like the issues you're trying to address are way off from the issues people actually care about.
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Sep 30, 2020 13:56
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tao of lmao posted:As long as the politically broken posts and posters are dealt with quickly, I have no real issue with the rules as presented. This is about where I'm at. The "dont be a dick" rule is the big one and folks are smart enough to know the difference between "wow [wrestler] looks great" and being thirsty to the point of creepiness.
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Sep 30, 2020 14:07
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JUNGLE BOY posted:Just want to point out that this isn’t even remotely an unreasonable or trolling request to want clarification and I’m not sure why someone would get probed for it. This is partly what I was getting at before, but I do appreciate the responses regarding hornyposting since then. I appreciate that people can and will call me out if a post crosses a line and I always internalize that when it happens and try to post better, but my preference would be to know where the boundaries are so I don't make posts that upset/offend people in the first place.
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Sep 30, 2020 14:24
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I have come to defend making fun of the "Brazilian Excuse". It doesn't stem from racism or bigotry. It's just the mindset of the fighters from that region. It's like making fun of TAM for never having shirts on. It's just how they are, as a combat sports culture.
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Sep 30, 2020 14:30
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I think the wrestlegoons are right to want some clarification on "Hornyposting" because combat sports feature lots of bodies and deal a lot with the audience's gaze, so posters are going to comment these things, and there are lots of memes about funny/bad/gross takes on these things on the wider internet (in MMA, e.g. Mackenzie Dern's birthday cake-like rear end; Holly Holm's clitoris; Izzy's boob). MMA literally involves evaluating fighters' bodies as a way of measuring preparedness and predicting wins and losses. I suggest that the hornyposting rule be emended to "No weird/gross/stalker/rapey hornyposting" and that the rules have an Icarus clause about flying too close to the sun with inside jokes and stuff e.g. I posted this in Discord the other day quote:holly holm as abused exogenous hormones as evidenced by her gigantic clitoris which is visible in this blurry still from her most recent weighin Which is a reference to a really weird guy's youtube video back in the Ronda Rousey days and not a serious post in itself. Half of the room got it and groaned, half of the room was perplexed. I wouldn't really blame a mod for giving that post a sixer in a vaccuum, but I'd hope that the moderating team knows our community well enough to a) catch that it's absurd enough to be a gag, b) note that the community isn't reacting as if this needs some kind of policing, and c) recognize that the person posting it isn't usually a gross weirdo before mashing the button.
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Sep 30, 2020 15:07
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I think references to things like that are something we have to be careful about. The UFC is almost 30 years old and some of the references people make are dating back that far. Not everyone is going to know every reference, and then it gets very easy to think that poster is just being gross. Like for that holly holm quote, I don't know that reference or what it's about, and I was very close to just asking you "what the hell man why would you say that" before seeing that it was a reference to some youtube video from like 5 years ago. If someone is making a reference, I think a certain degree of liability falls on them to make it clear that it's a reference and not their own thoughts, otherwise all you can do is assume that's what they're sincerely saying.
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Sep 30, 2020 15:29
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Chasing off RGL was maybe one of the worst non-mortal sins a mod has ever committed. It set the tone for years to come. I also think the tiered punishment rule is ridiculous and is a way to remove context and actual human judgement from moderating. It is "clown shoes".
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Sep 30, 2020 15:31
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mfcrocker posted:Not particularly, I don't have faith that telling the admins that a goon is predating on goons off-site would lead to action (in fact I'd fully expect them to shrug their shoulders and say "oh well its not our problem"), but it's better than nothing. I am only gonna speak for the combat sports discord I link in the monthly UFC thread but if anything like that ever happens please get in comtact with me immediately (obviously with supporting evidence). I wont tolerate that on that discord, and promise to hound an admin to take it seriously.
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Sep 30, 2020 15:46
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piratepilates posted:. Yeah i mever heard that line either and would stand by a 6er for it. Its gross in and out of a vacuum for multiple reasons. The Brazilian Tap thing is fine imo as thats less about nationality/race and more about "guy who is too proud to accept an L" which is coupled with a bunch of Brazilian fighters openly accepting their losses. Its mocking the "too proud to admit defeat" folk by way of an old meme.
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Sep 30, 2020 15:52
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i think the mma threads are good about self-policing for weirdos. when someone says dumb poo poo they get told off and if they can take the L it's fine. other times you get someone melting down in a fun and entertaining way. making fun of brazilians is imo fair because their excuses are often hilarious (see costa after his last loss, wanderlei's whole career, etc.) and the crowds in brazil are hostile to the point of chanting you're gonna die to anyone who's not brazilian. but no one is seriously prejudiced against every brazilian fighter, tons of brazilians are universally beloved in this forum, it just happens to be guys who don't blame airplane seats, quail eggs, or *gestures vaguely* for their losses.
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Sep 30, 2020 16:13
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I feel like there is a little bit of a murky area, in that what got everyone all upset in the last thread was some dude strolling in and calling all Biden voters white supremacists in the wrestling Twitter thread (as well as some inter-forum drama no one in their right mind should care about, idk) but people make jokes about all Brits being massive racists/paedos all the time, albeit maybe not so much on this particular forum. My personal attitude in this case is to either no sell it or give as good as you get, especially as, most of the time, you shouldn't be feeling sorry for (white) Brits or a system that forces you to vote for Joe Biden of all people. Then there was another recent calamity in the wrestling Twitter thread, where someone making an admittedly ill-thought-out joke about Portuguese people was condemned as racist, because apparently in the US Portuguese people are legally considered to be Hispanic. 
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Sep 30, 2020 17:21
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Politics is genuinely unavoidable when it’s the fighters persona aka Colby Covington and gamebred and woodly replying black lives matter to anything. Wendy’s drive throughing it seems... I dunno not right?
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Sep 30, 2020 17:26
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Hedgehog Pie posted:what got everyone all upset in the last thread was some dude strolling in and calling all Biden voters white supremacists in the wrestling Twitter thread (as well as some inter-forum drama no one in their right mind should care about, idk) but people make jokes about all Brits being massive racists/paedos all the time, albeit maybe not so much on this particular forum. this isn't at all what happened. suggest you re-read. that poster was directly accusing specific posters of being a white supremacist. and they were doing it specifically to provoke a reaction. that poster has a history of doing so.
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Sep 30, 2020 17:27
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JUNGLE BOY posted:this isn't at all what happened. suggest you re-read. that poster was directly accusing specific posters of being a white supremacist. and they were doing it specifically to provoke a reaction. that poster has a history of doing so. I don't think it's that much different from what I said, though I understand what you're getting re: repeat offenders and being specific rather than general, I'll concede that. From what I recall, it started with a tweet of The Rock endorsing Biden and this lad saying something like "The Rock is a white supremacist", before moving on to "maybe you are all
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Sep 30, 2020 17:39
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Hedgehog Pie posted:I don't think it's that much different from what I said, though I understand what you're getting re: repeat offenders and being specific rather than general, I'll concede that. From what I recall, it started with a tweet of The Rock endorsing Biden and this lad saying something like "The Rock is a white supremacist", before moving on to "maybe you are all You should really go back and re-read it rather than relying on your recollection.
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Sep 30, 2020 17:43
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Hedgehog Pie posted:I don't think it's that much different from what I said, though I understand what you're getting re: repeat offenders and being specific rather than general, I'll concede that. From what I recall, it started with a tweet of The Rock endorsing Biden and this lad saying something like "The Rock is a white supremacist", before moving on to "maybe you are all quote:Really just making it clear you’re a white supremacist that sees Muslims as subhuman waste to be slaughtered. No wonder you see no issue with The Rock endorsing genocide. here i made it easy for you
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Sep 30, 2020 17:44
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I honestly don't see what makes it so different to what I said, though I fully confess to it maybe being more personal and specific than I initially let on. They came in, said that you're a white supremacist if you vote for Joe Biden (as in the post quoted above) as an obvious troll and waltzed off into the sunset. I fully admit to not knowing forum history/politics and have no desire to learn because why would I watch the show Paul. Maybe it would have been better if we had a version of the Brass Eye paedophisles.jpg to blunt the edge with, idk.
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Sep 30, 2020 17:53
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Hedgehog Pie posted:I honestly don't see what makes it so different to what I said, though I fully confess to it maybe being more personal and specific than I initially let on. They came in, said that you're a white supremacist if you vote for Joe Biden (as in the post quoted above) as an obvious troll and waltzed off into the sunset. I fully admit to not knowing forum history/politics and have no desire to learn because why would I watch the show Paul. No one was complaining about attacks on Biden voters in general. If you can’t understand the difference between broad generalizations about groups of people that may include a poster, vs a direct attack on a poster, like “Americans are stupid” vs “Hedgehog Pie is a loving idiot” And why one provokes a reaction, a hostile forum, and thread derails... I really, really, do not know what to tell you.
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Sep 30, 2020 17:57
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There are a sizable number of posters who absolutely agree with that post, some of whom have posted in this very thread 
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Sep 30, 2020 17:58
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JUNGLE BOY posted:No one was complaining about attacks on Biden voters in general. I think I understand what you're getting at, and I'm not deliberately trying to be obtuse here, I'm genuinely curious as to where it stands with other generalisations that people might regularly use for "humour", good or bad. Like, I don't know anything about MMA but the MMA posters were clarifying about making jokes about Brazilian fighters/crowds if it's used to mock a certain part of the fighting culture and thought it would be useful to bring it up. Sorry for not reading the offending posts properly. Fwiw, I almost certainly am a loving idiot but loving idiots need the most attention/clarification.
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Sep 30, 2020 18:08
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NienNunb posted:There are a sizable number of posters who absolutely agree with that post, some of whom have posted in this very thread And those people smartly don't open their mouths about it on this subforum because it has fuckall to do with pro wrestling or combat sports
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Sep 30, 2020 18:13
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Hedgehog Pie posted:I had never seen them post in this forum before That poster has been a regular in Fight Island, frequently and almost entirely on-topic to that point. That's not an attack on you, I get it if you didn't see their posts, they mostly stuck to AEW threads and WWE discussion threads, but here's ~995 instances of it, not counting the bad off-topic 3 posts which are being discussed https://forums.somethingawful.com/query.php?action=results&qid=1601484330 and his two other infractions in Fight Island pre-that (not tagging spoilers and something weird in an AEW thread). This is in no way a defense of those three (or those five) posts, the posts were bad and deserved probations, especially the last post, But they weren't the actions of someone randomly barging in because they were alerted to the sub as some tried to sincerely argue, they'd been here for years mostly positively contributing, and it's fairly easy to verify without grudge-holding against other places and demanding a lockdown or whatever that nonsense ending the last feedback thread was People are welcome to post here on-topic about wrestling or boxing or MMA or other combat sports, and we have a whole chat thread where you can be as off-topic as you want within reason; we might even briefly have another if the BYOB traveling spaceship thread ever decides to come back, they were cool and good and I don't want to see anyone bullying the BYOBers who stuck around from it and got into New Japan or AEW either. I don't think that would happen, but I didn't think this would either Chris James 2 fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Sep 30, 2020 |
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Sep 30, 2020 18:18
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"That nonsense" was a convenient scapegoat to ignore the other salient points that I and others brought up and talked about. Thank you for your second post defending a terrible person because they managed to post about wrestling, and not the community you are supposed to help moderate.
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Sep 30, 2020 18:24
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Chris James 2 posted:That poster has been a regular in Fight Island, frequently and almost entirely on-topic to that point. Fair enough, my bad. I'm not very good with names! (I also don't really read the WWE/AEW discussion threads outside of recaps when I'm bored.  ) The end of the last thread and Jungle Boy's posts here seem to be indicating the opposite, but it's probably not important now anyway. Fairly casual poster here and I generally like the forum a lot, I just wanted to try and address a few things that have hit me in the past. Obviously I did it kind of badly.
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Sep 30, 2020 18:26
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I do not personally feel comfortable posting in a subforum that will welcome someone like that back with open arms at the end of their probation.
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Sep 30, 2020 18:29
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Chris James 2 posted:That poster has been a regular in Fight Island, frequently and almost entirely on-topic to that point. That's not an attack on you, I get it if you didn't see their posts, they mostly stuck to AEW threads and WWE discussion threads, but here's ~995 instances of it, not counting the bad off-topic 3 posts which are being discussed https://forums.somethingawful.com/query.php?action=results&qid=1601484330 and his two other infractions in Fight Island pre-that (not tagging spoilers and something weird in an AEW thread). This is in no way a defense of those three (or those five) posts, the posts were bad and deserved probations, especially the last post, But they weren't the actions of someone randomly barging in because they were alerted to the sub as some tried to sincerely argue, they'd been here for years mostly positively contributing, and it's fairly easy to verify without grudge-holding against other places and demanding a lockdown or whatever that nonsense ending the last feedback thread was These defenses that you’re trying to paint as “not a defense”, alongside the fact that you’re posting “free taintrunner” elsewhere doesn’t really give me confidence you have this sub forums best interests at heart.
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Sep 30, 2020 18:33
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NienNunb posted:I do not personally feel comfortable posting in a subforum that will welcome someone like that back with open arms at the end of their probation. That poster will not be allowed to behave like he did days ago again in this subforum. Jerusalem already made that clear. He deserved the month, and that will be the minimum going forward if the situation continues
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Sep 30, 2020 18:34
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Yes I'm certain the guy who calls for the death of his political enemies will behave this time
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Sep 30, 2020 18:43
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Sorry, I promise to catch up fully on this thread as soon as I get a chance and answer everything posted to the best of my ability. The most recent thing I see is questions about Taintrunner, who I banned a couple of days ago. If they've reregistered to the forums since that ban then they're allowed to come back and post again when their month probation ends. If they post anything at all remotely resembling anything like the bullshit that got them banned before, they'll be kicked out again. They largely have been able to post normally here before now so I hope they can again, but if they can't they'll be gone again fast with either another lengthy probation or a ban. The forums as currently setup have always run under the rule that reregistering after a ban allows you to post again once you are off probation, with the obvious caveat that bans on your rap sheet make mods consider tougher punishments for bad posting. If you disagree with that setup or you think that Taintrunner is a candidate for a forums-wide permaban based on how they regularly post in other forums, then that is a matter for an admin, either via QCS or directly contacting one of them. It is beyond the scope of this subforum. Also, a quick bit of housekeeping. Chris James 2 has been in touch to let me know they need a break, and I've requested their removal as an IK as a result. I think CJ2 made a real effort to try and be thoughtful and open about their time as an IK, admitted when they made mistakes and made a real effort to learn from them, which is commendable. Once we have an idea of who the new IK might be, we'll let you know.
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Sep 30, 2020 23:52
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