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It's that time of year again, the Observer Hall of fame voting season. The Observer hall is set up very much like the major North American sports halls of fame in that you need 60% of the votes in your region to enter, and while this does have issues at time (see the log jam of Lucha candidates) it means that it's more of a leigt hall of fame than the WWE which is very much just up to Vince. Also with it's Lucha and Japan sections it's much better at being a global hall of fame than US based halls tend to be. The Criteria according to the Observer hall is based on in-ring work, Box office drawing power and positive historical influence. Voters can vote in 10 wrestlers and 5 non wrestlers and entry is broken down by regions. This years ballot as taken from the October 2nd Observer is Historical Candidates Ole Anderson, Bob Armstrong, Jerry Brisco, June Byers, Haystacks Calhoun, Wild Bull Curry, Cowboy Bob Ellis, The Fabulous Ones (Stan Lane & Steve Keirn), Don Fargo, Pampero Firpo, Black Gordman & Great Goliath, Archie “Mongolian Stomper” Gouldie, Chavo Guerrero Sr., Rocky Johnson, The Masked Interns (Jerry Hester & Billy Garrett & Tom Anderson) with manager Dr. Ken Ramey, Sputnik Monroe, Blackjack Mulligan, Miguel Perez Sr., Johnny Rougeau, Enrique Torres, Jimmy & Johnny Valiant, The Von Brauners with manager Saul Weingeroff and Johnny “Mr. Wrestling II” Walker. Modern US/Canada Tully Blanchard & Arn Anderson with manager J.J. Dillon, Junkyard Dog, Edge, Bill Goldberg, Scott Hall, Matt & Jeff Hardy, Kamala, Rick Martel, Kevin Nash, Randy Orton, Brian Pillman, C.M. Punk, Roman Reigns, Sgt. Slaughter, Trish Stratus, Rick & Scott Steiner, Kevin Von Erich, Kerry Von Erich and Ultimate Warrior. Japan Jun Akiyama, Cima, Satoshi Kojima & Hiroyoshi Tenzan, Yoshiaki Fujiwara, Hayabusa, Kota Ibushi, Kyoko Inoue, Tomohiro Ishii, Tetsuya Naito, Kenny Omega, Meiko Satomura and Akira Taue. Mexico Medico Asesino, Los Brazos (Brazo de Oro & Brazo de Plata & El Brazo), Caristico, Sangre Chicana, Jerry Estrada, La Fiera, Karloff Lagarde, Pirata Morgan, Alberto Munoz, Huracan Ramirez and Rito Romero. Rest of the World Spyros Arion, Wayne Bridges, Big Daddy, Dominic DeNucci, Billy Joyce, George Kidd, Killer Karl Kox, Mario Milano, Kendo Nagasaki, Jackie Pallo, Rollerball Mark Rocco, Johnny Saint, Ricki Starr, Adrian Street and Otto Wanz. Non Wrestlers Lord James Blears (who was a famous wrestler but primarily is on the ballot for his work as a booker/promoter/ambassador to wrestling in Hawaii in the 60s and 70s), Dave Brown, Bobby Bruns (main work is as Sam Muchnick’s booker in St. Louis during a golden era and also as the person who first discovered and got Rikidozan into pro wrestling and basically making the call to build him as the star of the country), Bob Caudle, Jim Crockett Jr., Joe Higuchi (the first time we’ve ever had a referee on the ballot), Jim Johnston (the only musical composer on the ballot), Takaaki Kidani, Larry Matysik, Stephanie McMahon, James Melby, Don Owen, Morris Sigel, Tony Schiavone, George Scott, Kevin Sullivan, Mike Tenay, Ted Turner, Stanley Weston and The Grand Wizard/Abdullah Farouk (Ernie Roth).
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Oct 2, 2020 18:07
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is there a list of who is new to the ballots and who is at risk of getting removed?
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Oct 2, 2020 18:22
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Wasn't one in this weeks Observer but Dave is going to be a Podcast with Mike Tenay and Garrett discussing the ballot so hopefully they break it down there. US ballot is the weakest in awhile and the strongest candidate on their is Edge who just had a terrible year so whelp. I actually expect the US ballot to be super weak till we start to see AEW guys appear on it because of the modern WWE's ability to not make stars Japan is super deep except with multiple names on it I'd like to see in the hall. Kenny was close last year but I wonder if him being AEW might hurt him just as voters may not want to take a Japan slot away from other guys. I also wonder how much Akiyama and Meiko being rumored to be NXT Japan's trainers will hurt their chances this year.
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Oct 2, 2020 18:31
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This probably gets asked every year, but what's the reasoning for making people eligible so early? Like, Roman Reigns is just entering his "peak" years. I get that retirement in wrestling is much more fluid than retirements for other pro sports, but it just seems like it'd make more sense and give a much better picture of their whole career to wait. Like, a wrestler must be either 45 or have had a certain number of years pass since their last match with a notable company.
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Oct 2, 2020 18:52
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The reason is that wrestling can change quickly and Wrestler have long careers so it makes hard to wait till a wrestler is retired. Also it can be hard to judge a wrestlers impact years later unlike says a Football player who can go off raw numbers. A real good example of this would be Nakamura who is in the Hall cause of his New Japan career and importance as a draw during the comeback years. Yet if he wasn't allowed onto the ballot till after his career we'd be looking at his WWE run and that would very much hurt his chances (see also the lack of Shoot style guys that got into the Hall on the Japan ballot. Shoot style is super important to Japan Pro Wrestling history but few made it to the halls cause by the time they made it to the ballot it had burned out/MMA made it big/Inokism fall out)
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Oct 2, 2020 19:19
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SatoshiMiwa posted:Japan Jun Akiyama, Cima, Tomohiro Ishii Vote Ishii in. gently caress being a draw, dude gets in on work alone by virtue of being the single most consistently awesome wrestler of the 2010's. I don't care that I'm utterly biased. The case for CIMA shouldn't be up for debate though. He's had a hand in training most of the DG roster, he was routinely at the top of the cards, the biggest star on what ended up the 2nd largest company in Japan.
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Oct 2, 2020 19:37
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Taue Taue TAUE TAUE
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Oct 2, 2020 20:54
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how long has Jim Johnston been on the ballot? he's legit one of the most important people in the attitude era and absolutely deserves to be in
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Oct 2, 2020 21:08
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i feel like after this year Schiavone should be considered, if he knocks out another 2 or 3 years like he has for Dynamite's first year with his consistency then he should get in for being such a generational voice. I think 3 or 4 years of strong Dynamite calling undoes his really bad years from 98 to 01 and his uninspired stints in between then and now
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Oct 2, 2020 21:25
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edge is probably a big case of someone who hurt their chances by coming back
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Oct 2, 2020 21:26
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My pick ups would be: Historical Candidates The Fabulous Ones (Stan Lane & Steve Keirn): More influential than you think, all those express teams came from them. Sputnik Monroe: That man said "gently caress the racists" in the 60's. Johnny “Mr. Wrestling II” Walker: Got invited by the president at the White House but had to unmask, so he said "no" to not break kayfabe. Modern US/Canada Tully Blanchard & Arn Anderson with manager J.J. Dillon: Cool team that was always a blast to see, plus there's always a good reason to induct Arn Anderson. Junkyard Dog: Dude was popular in the most racist places in America. Rick & Scott Steiner: Crazy suplex bastards also probably influenced modern-day crazy suplex bastards. Japan Akira Taue: 'nuff said. Mexico Los Brazos (Brazo de Oro & Brazo de Plata & El Brazo): Believe it or not, Super Porky was badass as hell. Huracan Ramirez: Created the Hurricanarana and was a huge star in Mexico, why wasn't he in already? Rest of the World Otto Wanz: Held up pro-wrestling in mainland Europe for years. Non Wrestlers Bobby Bruns (main work is as Sam Muchnick’s booker in St. Louis during a golden era and also as the person who first discovered and got Rikidozan into pro wrestling and basically making the call to build him as the star of the country), Jim Crockett Jr., Joe Higuchi (the first time we’ve ever had a referee on the ballot), Jim Johnston (the only musical composer on the ballot) The Grand Wizard/Abdullah Farouk (Ernie Roth): Influenced a lot of managers.
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Oct 2, 2020 21:52
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JOHN CENA posted:edge is probably a big case of someone who hurt their chances by coming back Was very much in favor of Edge a year ago but man he just wrecked his chances. He's a good example of why 35/15 years in the business is a good point to consider people. He had a borderline hall of fame career and coming back in an era where WWE just sucks at everything made him look like a nobody. I hope Caristico picks up votes this year now that the Mexico ballot has cleared up.
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Oct 2, 2020 21:58
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Edge was also really the only WWE guy that stood a good chance of going and he ruined it. Now I don't see anybody on the current roster having a chance of making it in. Which is funny cause someone like Balor, who was a main founding member of a group that changed wrestling around the world, as no chance of making it into the hall
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Oct 2, 2020 22:09
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Weirdos liked that match he did with Randy Orton. The second one. Nobody liked the first one. Same weirdos who liked the Roman/Jey Uso match.
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Oct 2, 2020 22:11
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I don't know why Dave keeps putting TenCozy on the ballot when both guys have way stronger resumes as singles wrestlers
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Oct 2, 2020 22:25
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Karl Stern did a really good breakdown of the ballot on one of his podcasts which you can get if you're an Observer/F4W subscriber. I have to agree with his assessment that making Arn, Tully and JJ a trio actually decreases their chances of a vote. I think Arn and Tully together as a team would get a vote, and JJ by himself should get a vote, but as a triumvirate it cuts out a bunch of their respective careers. And yeah, before his return I would have definitely said Edge was Hall of Fame material, his comeback detracts from his overall career which may seem a little unfair given COVID and empty arena matches etc, but what was a cohesive whole of a career to look back on now has this weird loving epilogue that throws the whole thing off.
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Oct 3, 2020 00:03
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Taue before CIMA idk bout that
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Oct 3, 2020 00:19
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I think the Hardy Boys might be the only act worth voting for on the US ballot and I'm not convinced that's a slam dunk. Maybe JYD after them and then the Steiners?
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Oct 3, 2020 02:33
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Hardy's have the same problems as the Steiners in that while they have some Hall of Fame years I don't think they have enough of them to get in
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Oct 3, 2020 02:42
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MassRafTer posted:I think the Hardy Boys might be the only act worth voting for on the US ballot and I'm not convinced that's a slam dunk. Maybe JYD after them and then the Steiners?
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Oct 3, 2020 02:43
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JOHN CENA posted:jyd for being a monster draw in new orleans right? And for the first year of his WWF run. Not sure I'd actually vote for him but I think his case is stronger than pretty much everyone on that list. SatoshiMiwa posted:Hardy's have the same problems as the Steiners in that while they have some Hall of Fame years I don't think they have enough of them to get in They are probably more influential than the Steiners, especially if you add in the Broken stuff as a team thing and not just a Matt thing.
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Oct 3, 2020 02:50
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Did Stephanie McMahon contribute anything positive? If you have jokes like "she started the womens' revolution" then save them for something that isn't of dire importance.
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Oct 3, 2020 02:53
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they've had some intense longevity closing in on 30 years, run their own promition, reinvented themselves about as many times as jericho....theyre close. very close. i actuallt think if jeff would have left and the hardys had a strong main event tag team run in aew that did numbers it'd seal their case.
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Oct 3, 2020 03:07
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What are the arguments against Big Daddy going in this year
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Oct 3, 2020 03:46
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Cavauro posted:Did Stephanie McMahon contribute anything positive? If you have jokes like "she started the womens' revolution" then save them for something that isn't of dire importance. If you want to talk about business, her push towards corporate friendly marketing is the main reason the WWE gets so much more from TV deals than they did when they were far more popular. But creatively, no lmao. NienNunb posted:What are the arguments against Big Daddy going in this year Same as every other year he didn't come close to getting in. - poo poo worker - Big name recognition but never a box office draw in the way his American, Japanese & Mexican contemporaries were - Pushed because he's the promoter's brother - Him not putting anybody over helped lead to the collapse of British wrestling when he retired
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Oct 3, 2020 03:57
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dsriggs posted:If you want to talk about business, her push towards corporate friendly marketing is the main reason the WWE gets so much more from TV deals than they did when they were far more popular. But creatively, no lmao. George Barrios and Michelle Wilson were the people who brokered those TV deals and they're not getting on the ballot anytime soon. Stephanie has next-to-no case whatsoever.
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Oct 3, 2020 05:06
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this sounds weird but if akiyama would have taken the nxt job i think it would have hurt his legacy a lot. real bad. i think taue is.... taue is like as borderline as it gets...i mean he's the fourth pillar. lengthy career in ajpw and noah, mostly his ajpw run with dangerous k. i think if edge would have stayed retired and possibly got in this year, taue should get in as well. yeah his tenure as head of noah operations wasnt great but i dont think anyone captaining the ship could really help the promotion recover from where it was, misawa's death was always going to cast a shadow and it was the inability of the previous management to get credible stars over to carry the company that caused its dip when everyone got old/retired and suddenly your only guys were a broken down marufuji, go shiozaki and katsuhiko nakajima. NOAH is now starting to swing back up it seems but it doesnt seem fair to blame their business slump on taue.
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Oct 3, 2020 10:09
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Despite their current New Japan Dad status I feel like Kojima and Tenzan definitely deserve to get in given how long and how good their body of work has been. Also Sputnik Monroe should get in for not only being a big draw but legit desegregating wrestling in Memphis pretty much single-handedly.
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Oct 3, 2020 11:21
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Cerebral Bore posted:Despite their current New Japan Dad status I feel like Kojima and Tenzan definitely deserve to get in given how long and how good their body of work has been. I mostly agree, but their problem is one I mentioned earlier in this thread, which is that they keep getting lumped together on the ballot as a tag team, and as much as I liked TenCozy they weren't nearly as accomplished as Kojima and Tenzan were on their own.
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Oct 3, 2020 11:44
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Cerebral Bore posted:Despite their current New Japan Dad status I feel like Kojima and Tenzan definitely deserve to get in given how long and how good their body of work has been. I think Kojima should be in, his ace run in All Japan in the 2000s was fantastic. Obviously that wasn't the best period for the company business-wise but it got worse once he went back to New Japan. But TenCozy as a team, just don't see it.
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Oct 3, 2020 11:53
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if akira taue is not a hall of famer, hiroyoshi tenzan is absolutely in no way a hall of famer.
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Oct 3, 2020 12:05
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Numero6 posted:My pick ups would be: huracan's drawing power is disputed because he was originally a character from a lucha movie that became real, so we don't know how he boosted business outside of this. none of his matches are taped, and he wrestled in the 60s so very few people are around that saw him live. also he has a trillion bootleg hijo de huracan and huracan jr's kicking around monterrey and juarez and they all suck Smoking Crow fucked around with this message at 14:53 on Oct 3, 2020 |
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Oct 3, 2020 14:46
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THE STEINER BROTHERS
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Oct 3, 2020 14:52
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that said, huracan's movie created tiny wrestling booms in south american countries that led to him drawing in like peru for less than a year so who knows
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Oct 3, 2020 14:54
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All my favourite guys like Ishii and Cobb and prime Angle and prime Lesnar can trace their lineage to Steiner Brothers beating and tossing people
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Oct 3, 2020 15:07
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Hardys before Steiners, 10,000%
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Oct 3, 2020 16:43
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would it hurt or help Hall and Nash more if they were combined as a team
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Oct 3, 2020 17:23
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KungFu Grip posted:would it hurt or help Hall and Nash more if they were combined as a team it would hurt hall because he would be stuck with a loser like nash
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Oct 3, 2020 17:33
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Neither should go in, singles or as a team. They should remove Kurt from the hall for his last run against Baron Corbin. Cima and Caristico need to go in
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Oct 3, 2020 17:45
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KungFu Grip posted:would it hurt or help Hall and Nash more if they were combined as a team Eh it would neither hurt or help as a team they still have the same issues, which is one big hot run as the NWO but than they also played a key roll in killing WCW too. And unlike Hogan they don't really have a big top run anywhere else to make a case for them to make it in
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Oct 3, 2020 18:13
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