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thrawn527
Mar 27, 2004

Thrawn/Pellaeon
Studying the art of terrorists
To keep you safe

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:

Mercy Kill is also pretty good and should go on that list in the OP. It puts a cap on Wraith Squadron and gives most everyone their deserved happy endings. As opposed to the dogshit the rest of the franchise turned into for the heroes.

Never got around to reading it, but added it to the legends OP list.

thrawn527 fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Dec 22, 2020

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fartknocker
Oct 28, 2012

Damn it, this always happens. I think I'm gonna score, and then I never score. It's not fair.




Wedge Regret

The only problem I have with Mercy Kill is it is, chronologically, the second to last book of the old EU before Crucible. I read it without doing any of the Legacy of the Force or Fate of the Jedi series, so jumping to that is... tricky. At a minimum, you'd have to have some working knowledge of the New Jedi Order, since Allston has two books there (Rebel Dream & Rebel Stand) and the Wraiths in general show up in one or two others, plus some of the insanity that happens after that too. It is a good book and if you like the Wraiths or Allston's style (As I did), it's very much worth the effort, but it requires a more background (Semi-regular consulting of Wookiepedia or a solid reference book like Essential Guide to Warfare) to get the sense of the setting than other Wraith books set back during the pre-Thrawn era.

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?





College Slice

fartknocker posted:

The only problem I have with Mercy Kill is it is, chronologically, the second to last book of the old EU before Crucible. I read it without doing any of the Legacy of the Force or Fate of the Jedi series, so jumping to that is... tricky. At a minimum, you'd have to have some working knowledge of the New Jedi Order, since Allston has two books there (Rebel Dream & Rebel Stand) and the Wraiths in general show up in one or two others, plus some of the insanity that happens after that too. It is a good book and if you like the Wraiths or Allston's style (As I did), it's very much worth the effort, but it requires a more background (Semi-regular consulting of Wookiepedia or a solid reference book like Essential Guide to Warfare) to get the sense of the setting than other Wraith books set back during the pre-Thrawn era.

I honestly don't think Mercy Kill required any more than the usual amount of "ok those are weird words in strange contexts, but this is Star Wars so that's par for the course" level of acceptance from readers. There's a bit of NJO-ish prologue, there's a bit of slightly-post-Thrawn era Wraith-ing, and then the main plot revolves around the crew cleaning up after some loose threads from what appears to be FotJ plot. I just kind of took the FotJ references in stride; I never read any of it nor consulted Wookieepedia over it.

Arcsquad12
Mar 4, 2013

I Love Satan


That is the correct way to engage with Fate of the Jedi unless you really want to read Troy Denning's depiction of a Jedi doing a Mortal Kombat fatality on a Mandalorian because he and Traviss were still having a pissing match.

Xenomrph
Dec 9, 2005

AvP Nerd/Fanboy/Shill



I kinda want to read that, what happens?

Arcsquad12
Mar 4, 2013

I Love Satan


Admiral Daala somehow becomes the head of the Galactic Alliance and exiles Luke for his Jedi order causing problems. Meanwhile new Jedi apprentices are starting to go crazy and developing unusual force powers so Daala enlists a Mandalorian strike team to lock down the temple and then one of the Jedi loses their mind and goes all Kano and uses the force to shove his hand into the Mando and rip it up.

Angry_Ed
Mar 30, 2010




Grimey Drawer

Arcsquad12 posted:

Admiral Daala somehow becomes the head of the Galactic Alliance and exiles Luke for his Jedi order causing problems. Meanwhile new Jedi apprentices are starting to go crazy and developing unusual force powers so Daala enlists a Mandalorian strike team to lock down the temple and then one of the Jedi loses their mind and goes all Kano and uses the force to shove his hand into the Mando and rip it up.

Ok now which plot points were written by Traviss and which are Denning

Edit: unless that's all one book

Arcsquad12
Mar 4, 2013

I Love Satan


Angry_Ed posted:

Ok now which plot points were written by Traviss and which are Denning

Edit: unless that's all one book

The Traviss/Denning spat started in Legacy of the Force. Denning is very big on Jedi and Traviss was very not big on Jedi and was more or less the main writer for Mando content at the time. Legacy and Fate were both written round robin by trios of authors and they had almost no planning on what each author would do. Traviss would denigrate Jedi and Denning in turn tried to kill off Traviss's characters in his books, to the point where he had Mandalore virus bombed to specifically kill any living being with a hint of Jango Fett DNA.

Traviss did not get on well with fans and coined the term "Talifans" to refer to her detractors, so for a while there was a big flame war on the Jedi Council Forums until Traviss quit posting there. Around the same time that all this was happening season 2 of Clone Wars happened and rewrote a lot of Mandalorian canon, at the time basically nullifying all of Traviss's plotlines in her standalone Republic Commando novels. After Legacy of the Force ended she had one more novel out called Imperial Commando and then she quit writing for star wars as everything she was working on got canceled.

Fate of the Jedi kept going for a while before the Legends label was created and Denning continued to take potshots at Traviss's writing by turning Mandalorians into glorified stormtrooper thugs for his pet Jedi characters to beat up. And that's where the mortal kombat fatality happened.

The whole thing was very stupid and very embarrassing and I haven't read anything from either author since because of it. Traviss does not take criticism well and I will never forgive Denning for writing sexual assault against a teenager into a loving Star Wars novel.

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?





College Slice

Also Denning really really wanted to gently caress bugs so that was like a running thread in every Star Wars book he wrote.

And while I'd be like, sure ok, whatever puffs your thorax, I'm not gonna judge, it's literally loving everywhere.

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 01:39 on Dec 23, 2020

Arcsquad12
Mar 4, 2013

I Love Satan


The old thread was called Bugnest Orgies for a reason.

Van Dis
Jun 19, 2004


Arcsquad12 posted:

Traviss did not get on well with fans and coined the term "Talifans" to refer to her detractors, so for a while there was a big flame war on the Jedi Council Forums until Traviss quit posting there.

This sentence is perfect, like a crystal

thrawn527
Mar 27, 2004

Thrawn/Pellaeon
Studying the art of terrorists
To keep you safe

Now itís a Star Wars Book Barn thread!

Chairman Capone
Dec 17, 2008



Arcsquad12 posted:

Traviss did not get on well with fans and coined the term "Talifans" to refer to her detractors, so for a while there was a big flame war on the Jedi Council Forums until Traviss quit posting there.

She also wrote these little fanfic stories where fans were angry at her because her characters were having so much sex.

I wonder if she watches The Mandalorian. She did invent the term beskar. Also she used to be really thirsty for Temeura Morrison.

Arcsquad12
Mar 4, 2013

I Love Satan


I mean who wouldn't be?

Xenomrph
Dec 9, 2005

AvP Nerd/Fanboy/Shill



Arcsquad12 posted:

The Traviss/Denning spat started in Legacy of the Force. Denning is very big on Jedi and Traviss was very not big on Jedi and was more or less the main writer for Mando content at the time. Legacy and Fate were both written round robin by trios of authors and they had almost no planning on what each author would do. Traviss would denigrate Jedi and Denning in turn tried to kill off Traviss's characters in his books, to the point where he had Mandalore virus bombed to specifically kill any living being with a hint of Jango Fett DNA.

Traviss did not get on well with fans and coined the term "Talifans" to refer to her detractors, so for a while there was a big flame war on the Jedi Council Forums until Traviss quit posting there. Around the same time that all this was happening season 2 of Clone Wars happened and rewrote a lot of Mandalorian canon, at the time basically nullifying all of Traviss's plotlines in her standalone Republic Commando novels. After Legacy of the Force ended she had one more novel out called Imperial Commando and then she quit writing for star wars as everything she was working on got canceled.

Fate of the Jedi kept going for a while before the Legends label was created and Denning continued to take potshots at Traviss's writing by turning Mandalorians into glorified stormtrooper thugs for his pet Jedi characters to beat up. And that's where the mortal kombat fatality happened.

The whole thing was very stupid and very embarrassing and I haven't read anything from either author since because of it. Traviss does not take criticism well and I will never forgive Denning for writing sexual assault against a teenager into a loving Star Wars novel.

I don't really have any love for Denning and I'm pretty ambivalent on the Jedi, but Traviss's incessant Mandalorian fellatio got real old real fast; seeing her get dunked on puts a smile on my face no matter who's doing it.

What was this teenage sexual assault thing? That's pretty messed up.

cptn_dr
Sep 7, 2011

Seven for beauty that blossoms and dies



Yeah that's the one thing I think we can all agree on, Tem is a beautiful man.

fartknocker
Oct 28, 2012

Damn it, this always happens. I think I'm gonna score, and then I never score. It's not fair.




Wedge Regret

Traviss' first Republic Commando book, Hard Contact, is pretty short and solid. However, reading it after all the insanity came out, it's kinda clear where she'd take a bunch of the Mandalorian worship insanity in later works.

Lord Hydronium
Sep 25, 2007

Non, je ne regrette rien




fartknocker posted:

Traviss' first Republic Commando book, Hard Contact, is pretty short and solid. However, reading it after all the insanity came out, it's kinda clear where she'd take a bunch of the Mandalorian worship insanity in later works.
Yeah, I haven't read Hard Contact in a while, but I did reread it after Traviss's writing started becoming...well, more Traviss-y, and at the time I thought it still held up. It even had a Mandalorian as its main villain, which would be unthinkable in her later writing.

Say one thing for her, though, she wrote a gay Mandalorian couple into her books intentionally knowing it would piss off some of her more conservative fans. I was on the Jedi Council Forums at the time, and boy were there some unhappy people in her fan group there when that happened.

Arcsquad12
Mar 4, 2013

I Love Satan


Xenomrph posted:

What was this teenage sexual assault thing? That's pretty messed up.

Takes place during Invincible when Tahiri Veila was working for Jacen Solo because he let her have time travel Force Sex with Anakin Solo before he died. She straps Ben Skywalker down to a Vong Torture rack, puts on a leather dominatrix outfit and shoves her hand down his pants.

She's in her thirties, he's fourteen.

This is also the book that wants us to feel sorry for Tahiri later on and ends with Daala becoming president of the Alliance and Jacen Solo getting thrown into a vat of used syringes before his whole family watches his corpse get dumped into an incinerator.

As for Traviss, I'll defend her RepCom books because if there's one place that her writing style is justified, it's coming from POV characters with extremely embedded biases and their highly impressionable followers. Imperial Commando 501st isn't a very good book but I did like how Jedi Master Zey finally stood up to the Mandos and called them out for being self righteous weirdos with a persecution complex.

But for LOTF it just does not work at all to have Jaina Solo decide that the best person to teach her how to kill a Jedi is loving Boba Fett.

Arcsquad12 fucked around with this message at 06:31 on Dec 23, 2020

thrawn527
Mar 27, 2004

Thrawn/Pellaeon
Studying the art of terrorists
To keep you safe

Arcsquad12 posted:

Takes place during Invincible when Tahiri Veila was working for Jacen Solo because he let her have time travel Force Sex with Anakin Solo before he died. She straps Ben Skywalker down to a Vong Torture rack, puts on a leather dominatrix outfit and shoves her hand down his pants.

She's in her thirties, he's fourteen.

This is also the book that wants us to feel sorry for Tahiri later on and ends with Daala becoming president of the Alliance and Jacen Solo getting thrown into a vat of used syringes before his whole family watches his corpse get dumped into an incinerator.

...wtf?

Hiro Protagonist
Oct 25, 2010

Last of the freelance hackers and
Greatest swordfighter in the world


You know, maybe the Disney take over was an objectively good thing if that's the direction Star Wars was heading.

thrawn527
Mar 27, 2004

Thrawn/Pellaeon
Studying the art of terrorists
To keep you safe

I just read the full plot description for Invincible, and that whole thing sounds like a series of yikes followed by wtfs, one right after another. The whole series was like that?

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?





College Slice

Hiro Protagonist posted:

You know, maybe the Disney take over was an objectively good thing if that's the direction Star Wars was heading.

I'd say that, but the same people under whose watch this poo poo happened, are still in charge of books.

Overall they showed their unfitness for the franchise with NJO, but as soon as any portion of the Dark Nest trilogy's manuscript made it to their editors they should've canned the whole thing.

(Given the current state of the franchise with their propensity for cancelling any portion of any level of canon as soon as convenient, and re-doing the same era over and over, they should've just erased NJO as soon as it happened.)

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 13:52 on Dec 23, 2020

Arcsquad12
Mar 4, 2013

I Love Satan


thrawn527 posted:

I just read the full plot description for Invincible, and that whole thing sounds like a series of yikes followed by wtfs, one right after another. The whole series was like that?

Ehh, the Aaron Allston books in the series were okay? Maybe?

Chairman Capone
Dec 17, 2008



VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:

I'd say that, but the same people under whose watch this poo poo happened, are still in charge of books.

Yeah, that's what really gets me when I see people give takes to the effect of "I'm so glad Disney ditched the dumb EU, now the people in charge really get the franchise!" It's the same people. I guess the Dark Horse people aren't there any more, but the book staff and the people at Lucasfilm in charge of looking everything over and giving passes on things are all the same.

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?





College Slice

Allston's takedown of the entire franchise, right here:

Jazerus
May 24, 2011




the strangest thing about the later parts of the legends EU was how time, effectively, didn't pass for most characters. han and leia's kids, and everyone else of their generation, are perpetual teenagers in their thoughts and behavior, and scenes like that slipped through as though even the editors had forgotten that tahiri wasn't still a teen. not that it would be acceptable even if she was, but it would be moderately less awful. luke, han, and leia, meanwhile, seem to have taken an immortality serum around age 55 (at the latest) and are of course still bumping around adventuring and saving their silly kids

chaosrefined
Dec 27, 2012


thrawn527 posted:

I just read the full plot description for Invincible, and that whole thing sounds like a series of yikes followed by wtfs, one right after another. The whole series was like that?

Don't forget Denning throwing casual sexism around. Paraphrasing here, but there's a section where Jaina and Jacen had a fight, but Luke was projecting his image over Jaina's. When the illusion broke, Jacen was surprised to see his sister. Later on, she talks about this with the OG 3 and talks about the surprise Jacen had shown. Han, for some loving reason, chalks this up to the fact that Jaina was a girl and thus couldn't possibly best Jacen in combat.

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?





College Slice

chaosrefined posted:

Don't forget Denning throwing casual sexism around. Paraphrasing here, but there's a section where Jaina and Jacen had a fight, but Luke was projecting his image over Jaina's. When the illusion broke, Jacen was surprised to see his sister. Later on, she talks about this with the OG 3 and talks about the surprise Jacen had shown. Han, for some loving reason, chalks this up to the fact that Jaina was a girl and thus couldn't possibly best Jacen in combat.

JFC

thrawn527
Mar 27, 2004

Thrawn/Pellaeon
Studying the art of terrorists
To keep you safe

chaosrefined posted:

Don't forget Denning throwing casual sexism around. Paraphrasing here, but there's a section where Jaina and Jacen had a fight, but Luke was projecting his image over Jaina's. When the illusion broke, Jacen was surprised to see his sister. Later on, she talks about this with the OG 3 and talks about the surprise Jacen had shown. Han, for some loving reason, chalks this up to the fact that Jaina was a girl and thus couldn't possibly best Jacen in combat.

Yup, that was one of the wtfs.

Arcsquad12
Mar 4, 2013

I Love Satan


Denning also has a hard on for ultraviolence bordering on torture porn. There's the one Jedi killed by his bipolar twilek pet character and she's left as a headless limitless stump in an open park. And the Kano fatality and Jacen's death were all done by him.

You also have Crucible which can best be described as Han and alliance undergo immense physical agony for three hundred pages and also this is the end of Legends EU.

Lord Hydronium
Sep 25, 2007

Non, je ne regrette rien




One of the only things I remember in Invincible is the final fight where Jaina cuts off Jacen's arm, and then at one point Jacen falls face first into a bunch of hypodermic needles or something and has them sticking out of his face for the rest of the fight.

I actually liked Betrayal at the time I read it (although it retrospect it kind of shitted on all the major interesting developments of the NJO and Jacen), but boy did that series go downhill quickly.

Angry_Ed
Mar 30, 2010




Grimey Drawer

Jazerus posted:

the strangest thing about the later parts of the legends EU was how time, effectively, didn't pass for most characters. han and leia's kids, and everyone else of their generation, are perpetual teenagers in their thoughts and behavior, and scenes like that slipped through as though even the editors had forgotten that tahiri wasn't still a teen. not that it would be acceptable even if she was, but it would be moderately less awful. luke, han, and leia, meanwhile, seem to have taken an immortality serum around age 55 (at the latest) and are of course still bumping around adventuring and saving their silly kids

Luke having a permanent 1970s haircut that makes him look like a Jedi Eric Foreman because nobody doing work on the games or the novel covers were allowed to imagine him looking like anything else or something. At least TLJ let him hobo it up a bit.

thrawn527
Mar 27, 2004

Thrawn/Pellaeon
Studying the art of terrorists
To keep you safe

Angry_Ed posted:

Luke having a permanent 1970s haircut that makes him look like a Jedi Eric Foreman because nobody doing work on the games or the novel covers were allowed to imagine him looking like anything else or something. At least TLJ let him hobo it up a bit.

That was annoying. The cover artists were always trying to imagine what older Luke would look like, and I remember thinking, "Um, Mark Hamill is right over there, guys" until I learned about that weird, "We have the rights to the OT Luke image and nothing else, so we can age up that image and NOTHING ELSE" thing. Same for Han and Leia.

So weird.

Xenomrph
Dec 9, 2005

AvP Nerd/Fanboy/Shill



I dunno, on the whole I liked the NJO. My EU headcanon timeline ends with that, though.

Lord Hydronium
Sep 25, 2007

Non, je ne regrette rien




Xenomrph posted:

I dunno, on the whole I liked the NJO. My EU headcanon timeline ends with that, though.
It's not quite like anything else Star Wars did or has done since, and I think it was a real shot in the arm that the post-ROTJ EU needed.

cptn_dr
Sep 7, 2011

Seven for beauty that blossoms and dies



Agreed. For all of NJO's (let's face it, many) flaws, at least it was trying something new. It wasn't just "Oh no! Another Imperial Superweapon!" and it let characters other than Leia, Luke, and Han do stuff. But the EU should have ended there (Well, Legacy was ok because it actually dealt with the fallout of the NJO, rather than basically just returning straight to the status quo the way the novels all did).

Lord Hydronium
Sep 25, 2007

Non, je ne regrette rien




I kinda see a parallel between how Legacy of the Force and Fate of the Jedi dealt with the NJO with how Rise of Skywalker treated The Last Jedi. Sorry we did something interesting, it won't happen again.

(Obviously this comparison depends on how you feel about the NJO and TLJ, not trying to spark a sequelchat argument.)

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?





College Slice

Lord Hydronium posted:

I kinda see a parallel between how Legacy of the Force and Fate of the Jedi dealt with the NJO with how Rise of Skywalker treated The Last Jedi. Sorry we did something interesting, it won't happen again.

(Obviously this comparison depends on how you feel about the NJO and TLJ, not trying to spark a sequelchat argument.)

To be fair, TLJ tried to do that with TFA.

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Rochallor
Apr 22, 2010


Lord Hydronium posted:

I kinda see a parallel between how Legacy of the Force and Fate of the Jedi dealt with the NJO with how Rise of Skywalker treated The Last Jedi. Sorry we did something interesting, it won't happen again.

[quote="cptn_dr" post="510974054"]
Agreed. For all of NJO's (let's face it, many) flaws, at least it was trying something new. It wasn't just "Oh no! Another Imperial Superweapon!" and it let characters other than Leia, Luke, and Han do stuff. But the EU should have ended there (Well, Legacy was ok because it actually dealt with the fallout of the NJO, rather than basically just returning straight to the status quo the way the novels all did).

I think that's the difference between TLJ and NJO. TLJ is setting up potential plot points and conflicts for future movies, while NJO is designed as and should have been the end. I'm inclined to give a little bit of leeway to the post-NJO stuff (but only just a little, cause they really are that bad) because really, how are you supposed to follow that up?

I've never actually read the Legacy comics, and I know they got mocked for having grimdark drug addict Luke, but that seems like the proper way to do a sequel to NJO. Set it way, way far in the future after everybody from the movies has died, except Artoo and Threepio I guess.

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