|
Nessus posted:At that point isn’t it Paulism not Christianity ? Christianity is Paulism. He was its first theologian and defined most of what it's about. I'm not sure what Christianity without Paul would look like. Paul is an easy scapegoat because most of his letters are very specific about particular problems at individual churches. It's easy to take his comments out of context to argue the opposite of the point he was trying to make.
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2023 16:09
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 17:18 |
|
|
Nessus posted:At that point isn’t it Paulism not Christianity ? If you bring up critiques of Paul to a lot of Christians (or at least, a lot of the American evangelicals I was raised around) they'll immediately cite 2 Timothy 3:16: quote:All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness The argument goes that Paul's writings that are in the Bible are in the Bible for a reason, namely that they too were divinely inspired just like the Gospels or the Old Testament. Arguments about the historical process of canonization, sectarian differences in what is canonical and what is not, or the origin of Paul's writings being messages to other early Christians and not intended as scripture themselves all tend to fall on deaf ears.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2023 16:10
|
|
|
It’s not even Paul, I mean Barth is Pauline. It’s forgetting our humanity.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2023 16:32
|
|
|
quiggy posted:If you bring up critiques of Paul to a lot of Christians (or at least, a lot of the American evangelicals I was raised around) they'll immediately cite 2 Timothy 3:16:  I'm not going to say they should be cut out, I mean that from a naive perspective, if you are building large edifices on the writing of a guy who was not an apostle, to the point when you are actively eliding or cutting against the material which is cited as being direct from Jesus Christ - which seems to be the case, if I understand these allusions to the arguments made by the horrible article we're kind of discussing - aren't you getting away from the actual root? It just seems (and this is not a slander on anyone) that Christ's actual teachings, provided in the Bible, take third or fourth place behind these various justification reasonings and the admittedly important topic of the Crucifixion.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2023 16:39
|
|
|
The authentic letters are the earlier documents.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2023 16:48
|
|
|
Sitting on your rear end doing gently caress all is Satanic. Hail Satan
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2023 16:53
|
|
|
Bar Ran Dun posted:It’s not even Paul, I mean Barth is Pauline. It’s forgetting our humanity. Right, like my passage from Chrysostom pointed out. Heck, there are sections of Paul's letters where he himself is raising money for poor people in Jerusalem. Also worth remembering that Luke the Evangelist--whose gospel includes the Good Samaritan, Prodigal Son, and the woes against the rich--was a disciple of Paul.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2023 17:02
|
|
|
An actual theologically trained Christian friend of mine once said it's the "evil vizier" interpretation of Paul you see online now, blaming all of Christianity's most controversial doctrines on him. Of course, I've heard the comment on women was something added later so maybe even what "Paul" said that sucks isn't what Paul said.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2023 18:19
|
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:An actual theologically trained Christian friend of mine once said it's the "evil vizier" interpretation of Paul you see online now, blaming all of Christianity's most controversial doctrines on him.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2023 18:36
|
|
|
Nessus posted:It's mostly strange to me because it seems to be giving a status of holy writing upon what seem to be very specific and operational letters (if ones that have, no doubt, a lot of good spiritual advice). I wouldn't say 'throw it out' but why THESE letters, and not other writings, and none of them seeming to either be written by or directly quoting the guy who was God? The guy who was God didn't write anything (at least not on a durable medium). The texts that became canon were the ones that were most useful for explaining what the apostles taught. Paul directly explaining to churches how to do Christianity was quite useful.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2023 18:41
|
|
|
Heck, I'll be snottily, obnoxiously Orthodox and suggest that that article and its isolation and inflation of a grand total of two verses into a "biblical" teaching is what happens when you isolate the Bible itself from Apostolic Tradition.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2023 20:25
|
|
|
Deteriorata posted:The texts that became canon were the ones that were most useful for explaining what the apostles taught. Paul directly explaining to churches how to do Christianity was quite useful. They’re also the ones that were widespread in early communities and were used by most communities.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2023 20:49
|
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:Of course, I've heard the comment on women was something added later so maybe even what "Paul" said that sucks isn't what Paul said.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2023 21:54
|
|
|
Arsenic Lupin posted:I am still very very sad that the "woman taken in adultery" story is a later addition. I have decided that it's good, therefore true.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2023 22:18
|
|
|
Arsenic Lupin posted:I am still very very sad that the "woman taken in adultery" story is a later addition. I have decided that it's good, therefore true. Just because it was not in the original text of John does not make it any more or less true than the rest of John. The Gospel of John itself was not written by John (or by a different eyewitness in his name) so it's not like the rest of the stories in John that aren't in the Synoptics can make any better claim to authenticity than the woman taken in adultery. We know it was added later, but Papias appears to refer to a story quite like it only a decade or two after John was written, so there's a solid claim that even if it wasn't in the original text of John that it was a story circulating in the Christian community in some fashion. There's also the possibility that it was in the original text but that it was removed by some copyists early in the process, likely because they thought it encouraged adultery, as pious copyists are well known to remove and change "problematic" passages to better match their understanding, and that the later copies we have actually represent an earlier manuscript tradition for which we just have no extant evidence. I wouldn't say that's likely, nor would I argue that such a thing is true in a debate, but I don't think it's impossible. We know that there were a lot more stories of Jesus circulating than ever made it into the Gospels, the author of John directly says so, and we also know that there's stories in the Gospels that are unlikely to have actually occurred, so even if this was just a good story circulating in some early Christian community that a copyist added in, I don't see how that makes it any less "true" than canonical stories written by other non-apostle authors who themselves were not eyewitnesses. I definitely like it as historical as much as the passage from Paul about how women can't be leaders and need to be silent when just a couple chapters earlier Paul refers to an apostle named Junia, which conservative theologians have undertaken Olympic-level mental gymnastics to explain as not referring to a woman. Edit: fixed a typo Azathoth fucked around with this message at 00:30 on Jun 3, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2023 23:58
|
|
|
Azathoth posted:I definitely like it as much as the passage from Paul about how women can't be leaders and need to be silent when just a couple chapters earlier Paul refers to an apostle named Junia, which conservative theologians have undertaken Olympic-level mental gymnastics to explain as not referring to a woman. The thing to have in mind is that Greek thinking men won the fight for leadership in the church and the canon reflects changes made by them . But they aren’t complete changes because there was a lot of this stuff. You can even see it in Paul letters with Prisca / Priscilla and Phoebe (in addition to the previously mentioned Junia)
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2023 00:35
|
|
|
Bar Ran Dun posted:The thing to have in mind is that Greek thinking men won the fight for leadership in the church and the canon reflects changes made by them . But they aren’t complete changes because there was a lot of this stuff. Yep. There's solid evidence that women had a prominent role in the early church, not just because that but also because if they didn't have such a prominent role, Paul (or someone putting words in his mouth) wouldn't have had to tell the churches he was writing to not to allow women in leadership. Women not leading was the norm and so he wouldn't have had to mention anything, but yet he is compelled to rail against it. Like, if in 1000 years they dig up a law code for Anytown, USA and there's a law on the books that makes it a felony to trap squirrels for sexual purposes and another law against loving squirrels, it's pretty reasonable to assume that a significant portion of Anytown, USA was loving squirrels, or at least trying very hard to do so.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2023 00:56
|
|
|
Well ok if I can't bag on Paul can I at least do Irenaeus? Also every time I read Polycarp I think lots of fish
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2023 00:56
|
|
|
How about Eusebius for poo poo-talking Papias?
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2023 00:58
|
|
|
Bar Ran Dun posted:The thing to have in mind is that Greek thinking men won the fight for leadership in the church and the canon reflects changes made by them . But they aren’t complete changes because there was a lot of this stuff. Bilirubin posted:Well ok if I can't bag on Paul can I at least do Irenaeus? In fact, I was going to quote Irenaeus earlier on the subject of taking Bible passages out of context (in which he may have helped invent a poetic form). I'll just do it now. St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Bk 1, Ch. 9 posted:Then, again, collecting a set of expressions and names scattered here and there [in Scripture], they twist them, as we have already said, from a natural to a non-natural sense. In so doing, they act like those who bring forward any kind of hypothesis they fancy, and then endeavour to support them out of the poems of Homer, so that the ignorant imagine that Homer actually composed the verses bearing upon that hypothesis, which has, in fact, been but newly constructed; and many others are led so far by the regularly-formed sequence of the verses, as to doubt whether Homer may not have composed them. Of this kind is the following passage, where one, describing Hercules as having been sent by Eurystheus to the dog in the infernal regions, does so by means of these Homeric verses — for there can be no objection to our citing these by way of illustration, since the same sort of attempt appears in both:—
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2023 01:04
|
|
|
Yeah that’s fair. By Greek I was meaning mean Greek thinking not like orthodox Greek.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2023 01:22
|
|
|
Bilirubin posted:Well ok if I can't bag on Paul can I at least do Irenaeus? Was it Tertullian who was gleeful all the pagans were in Hell?
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2023 01:42
|
|
|
I wouldn't be surprised if Hell is a significant reason some people reject Christianity. The Old Testament God is a meme of destruction and violence but at least if he or his followers killed you, you were dead. It's over. Eternal pain and torture is a New Testament invention from what I've been told by both jews and Atheists. It's why I don't really respect Dante or his work. You have to have a perverse, evil mind to celebrate Hell. Hell was a very real place to people back then and to make something like the Inferno is to traumatize and hurt others. At the start of Les Miserables, the Bishop who is the perfect embodiment of everything respectable about the Christian life, who represents humility and forgiveness, sees a traveling vicar who instead preaches fire and brimstone. A rich man in the audience then obligingly gave a penny to the poor to avoid damnation. "Buying a penny's worth of Heaven" the Bishop observed. I love that prologue and contrast. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 07:13 on Jun 3, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2023 07:07
|
|
|
Misinterpreting or defending stupid interpretations of Paul seems to happens mostly with fundies and others who can't perform biblical critique worth a drat. Paul adressed specific concerns among populations who recently converted from heathen religions - he wasn't giving literal advice to middle class American christians anno 2023. Tias fucked around with this message at 11:04 on Jun 3, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2023 10:54
|
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:Was it Tertullian who was gleeful all the pagans were in Hell? St. Sophrony of Essex, "Saint Silouan the Athonite posted:“I remember a conversation between [Silouan] and a certain hermit who declared with evident satisfaction, Prayer for the dead is actually a big reason I became Orthodox. It just makes more sense--if Christ is the conqueror of death, then why should death stop anybody from receiving help from the living? Beyond that, St. Mark of Ephesus even says (in arguing against the doctrine of Purgatory) that some go to Hades as only a temporary punishment, and St. Paisios that maybe ten out of every hundred are actually in what he calls a "demonic state."
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2023 22:01
|
|
|
Everyone goes to heaven eventually. Since just resist it more. It's like having to feed a dog its pills.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2023 22:08
|
|
|
Gaius Marius posted:Everyone goes to heaven eventually. Since just resist it more. It's like having to feed a dog its pills. I'm not going to heaven and you can't make me! >:[
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2023 00:04
|
|
|
Killingyouguy! posted:I'm not going to heaven and you can't make me! >:[ From the Pure Lands. Once I cultivate the Buddha eye in a realm free of defilements. And move to being a Bodhisattva who probably helps out in Hell. So not any time soon.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2023 00:48
|
|
|
Is being a bodhisattva like an afterlife of volunteering
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2023 01:17
|
|
|
Keromaru5 posted:By contrast, St. Silouan the Athonite: Yeah I would appreciate a comparison of the Orthodox and Catholic positions on prayer for the dead and Purgatory
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2023 01:54
|
|
|
Azathoth posted:Just because it was not in the original text of John does not make it any more or less true than the rest of John. The Gospel of John itself was not written by John (or by a different eyewitness in his name) so it's not like the rest of the stories in John that aren't in the Synoptics can make any better claim to authenticity than the woman taken in adultery.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2023 02:56
|
|
|
Killingyouguy! posted:Is being a bodhisattva like an afterlife of volunteering You stop before you reach the point when you become a buddha and strive with the incredible powers of mercy and compassion that reaching this point will grant you to liberate all sentient beings. It is unclear what will happen if ever we reach a point where the only extant sentient beings are bodhisattvas. My guess is everyone goes on the count of three.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2023 03:18
|
|
|
To answer your question: yeah, basically, but in an immensely fulfilling way!
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2023 03:26
|
|
|
Always thought it was a waste that you only meet Schrodinger, a bodhistatava, and they only use the dude for Digital Devil Saga instead of spreading the love to the rest of the series; although it would have massive metaphysical implications on the rest of the megaten universe, however seemingly so does the odd conjectures people whom haven't played the foundational games in the series does in simulacratationist terms, having only Stephen, Mido, and St.Germain allowed to cross the gulf of realities is dssapointing when you've got another dude out there vibing all semi Canon like.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2023 07:00
|
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:I wouldn't be surprised if Hell is a significant reason some people reject Christianity. The Old Testament God is a meme of destruction and violence but at least if he or his followers killed you, you were dead. It's over. Eternal pain and torture is a New Testament invention from what I've been told by both jews and Atheists. Dante is so terribly misinterpreted as to be darkly funny. The Inferno is a work of political satire taken far too seriously by people who conflated antiquity with received truth. Much like The Prince.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2023 13:35
|
|
|
Liquid Communism posted:Dante is so terribly misinterpreted as to be darkly funny. The Inferno is a work of political satire taken far too seriously by people who conflated antiquity with received truth. Much like The Prince. It's self-insert fanfiction.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2023 15:16
|
|
|
Reducing Inferno to mere political satire is absurd.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2023 15:49
|
|
|
Liquid Communism posted:Dante is so terribly misinterpreted as to be darkly funny. The Inferno is a work of political satire taken far too seriously by people who conflated antiquity with received truth. Much like The Prince.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2023 18:00
|
|
|
Arsenic Lupin posted:If this were true, there would be no Purgatorio nor Paradiso. I'm sad to inform you those are also satirical in spots. Less obviously than Inferno, but he takes potshots at the politics of Italy and Florence throughout.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2023 22:18
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 17:18 |
|
|
"Satirical in spots" is different from "the whole drat thing is a satire".
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2023 22:27
|
|