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I want to have a discussion with the forum at large about this issue without it breaking down into a pissing contest or derailing existing threads. First, a few rules that will be enforced: 1. This isn't a thread to be a dickhead 2. This isn't a thread to shitpost 3. This isn't a thread for personal attacks 4. Post whatever evidence or opinions you want to on the matter, so long as you follow the first three rules. You will not be probated for genocide denial or anything here. I know a lot of you have been upset at the way mods have handled talking about Xinjiang lately and I think it's something we ought to hash out and decide as a forum how we want to handle it. There are a few points I wanted to start with from my perspective on the issue: 1. As I've looked into this more I've realized that there is a lot more disinfo about it in mainstream press from Western anti-communist sources than I first thought. I think that I've attributed a lot of denial to knee-jerk reflexive defense of actual existing communism and/or anti-imperialism without considering that it may be a more targeted and legitimate response to bogus claims. 2. I'm not sure that I agree with the free speech arguments that some posters have been using, saying that the thread should sort it all out by accepting or rejecting opinions internally. C-SPAM has never been a free speech zone and has always been a place where certain opinions are simply not welcome. To me, the emotional reaction I have to people saying China is not at the least severely repressing Uyghurs is that it reeks of War on Terror anti-Muslim bullshit with the proper nouns switched. But I understand that many smell the same War on Terror bullshit when people insist on the opposite. 3. I am just a volunteer moderator on a forum I have been posting in for 5 years. I am not trying to toe the CIA line or whatever the gently caress. I've been acting nearly exclusively on reports from other C-SPAM users for "genocide denial" so I'm really just trying to see how the forum thinks about acting on reports like that. Please post what you think about the issue and whether you think C-SPAM moderators should draw the line anywhere when people are discussing it.
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Mar 24, 2021 18:48
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I guess I can lead off with a simple question: are the reports received inline with the people posting in the thread, or is there an invisible and aggrieved audience calling out allegations with dead silence? People can lurk threads, sure, but there's something off when the people not participating are the ones calling the shots.
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Mar 24, 2021 18:55
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Unban a Loving dog pls
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Mar 24, 2021 18:55
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I mostly stick to the Teunp thread and haven’t noticed any significant discord caused by the situation, but I’m going to throw in my two cents cause posting is more fun than working. The Chinese are probably doing a genocide. It seems like a bit worse of a genocide than the one America is doing at our southern border. Both empires are evil.
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Mar 24, 2021 18:55
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commielingus posted:Unban a Loving dog pls this isn't the thread for this Victory Position posted:I guess I can lead off with a simple question: are the reports received inline with the people posting in the thread, or is there an invisible and aggrieved audience calling out allegations with dead silence? People can lurk threads, sure, but there's something off when the people not participating are the ones calling the shots. I'd say it's mostly lurkers but plenty are active in other threads. I agree with you in principle but there's certainly a line to be drawn somewhere wrt a particular thread vs the rest of the forum. I'm not saying that's the case here but I'm hoping we can come to an understanding about it by opening it up to forum as a whole.
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Mar 24, 2021 19:00
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Flavius Aetass posted:1. As I've looked into this more I've realized that there is a lot more disinfo about it in mainstream press from Western anti-communist sources than I first thought. I think that I've attributed a lot of denial to knee-jerk reflexive defense of actual existing communism and/or anti-imperialism without considering that it may be a more targeted and legitimate response to bogus claims. What specific claims have been made that are disinformation?
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Mar 24, 2021 19:03
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I think this is a good idea and I wish you all the best, also I should be allowed to browbeat you all into doing what I want whenever E: sorry, didn't read the op
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Mar 24, 2021 19:04
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genocide has a few different definitions, and i think that's a huge part of the issue of trying to moderate around it. using a different genocide as an example to dilute some of the poisoned well: is the usa committing a genocide against african americans? under the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, the answer seems likely yes. but i don't think the idea is to ban anyone who says "the usa isn't genociding african americans, its just mass repression" because there are other definitions of genocide that make that statement valid. instead moderate around: 1. moral judgement. saying "the way the usa treats african americans is good" seems clear cut enough to be moderated on 2. denial of specific facts of some degree of certainty. this is less clear than moral judgement, but seems reasonable to moderate on someone saying "actually black people aren't shot by police"
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Mar 24, 2021 19:06
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Hairy Marionette posted:I mostly stick to the Teunp thread and haven’t noticed any significant discord caused by the situation, but I’m going to throw in my two cents cause posting is more fun than working. So what qualifies you to speak out about the other threads in the forum if you don't participate in any of them? This isn't a troll or attack, it just seems to me that a lot of people post solely in that thread, pop out to start a fight in another thread, and then go back to the trump thread to rally people for them. Hairy Marionette posted:The Chinese are probably doing a genocide. It seems like a bit worse of a genocide than the one America is doing at our southern border. Both empires are evil. It's been constantly been proven that many of the articles stating Ugiyur genocide have been sourced from Adrian Zenz or the state department. Zenz is a born again evangelical who believes god has given him/the US the goal of destroying the CPC. Additionally he's a scholar for the victims of communism foundation. The victims of communism foundation is most known for blaming the death of corona virus on the CPC, and also trying to mark down every nazi killed in WW2 as a victim of communism. Ontop of this Zenz doesn't speak a lick of Chinese which seems very odd for someone who is so invested in China.
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Mar 24, 2021 19:06
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If you want to call it genocide then everything should be called genocide. It's insane that a mention of China gets a "bu bu genocide" as some kind of an own when USA is carrying out multiple genocides by the same standard. Edit: Also obviously this applies to Canada and other countries. I am not keeping a running taly of all the genocides they are doing. It's probably a lot. Lostconfused has issued a correction as of 19:09 on Mar 24, 2021 |
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Mar 24, 2021 19:07
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Has there been active moderation of people getting slapped for "genocide denial" and if so can I see some examples?
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Mar 24, 2021 19:09
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Is the purpose of the thread to factually determine whether or not China is committing genocide? Because I think all we can do is quote Internet sources at each other, unless we want to send a delegation to Xinjiang to see if there's any genocide going on, and China is like sure guys come right in.
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Mar 24, 2021 19:10
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Cao Ni Ma posted:Has there been active moderation of people getting slapped for "genocide denial" and if so can I see some examples? There have been several people slapped in the covid/climate change threads I believe.
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Mar 24, 2021 19:13
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Has there been any mod action on xinjiang stuff? I haven't seen anything and I post a lot in the east asia / succ threads. E: answered above
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Mar 24, 2021 19:13
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Dustcat posted:Is the purpose of the thread to factually determine whether or not China is committing genocide? Because I think all we can do is quote Internet sources at each other, unless we want to send a delegation to Xinjiang to see if there's any genocide going on, and China is like sure guys come right in. Send me over, ill figure it all out and report back to the thread
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Mar 24, 2021 19:15
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I don’t think there is any way to setup a poll of active CSPAM posters that wouldn’t be abused, but anecdotally the active participants of the threads do not have an issue with the topic as it was being discussed, or at least do not consider banning it as being appropriate even if they disagree. If someone from the Trump thread or D&D or GBS can’t handle a discussion of China that doesn’t obsessively manufacture consent for the new cold war with China, they should probably not read the LF or China threads in CSPAM. I really think the mods, including Flavius, have been so flippant and arbitrary on this issue to a degree that I do not really see value in having an “honest discussion” about this topic. I argued my points in the LF thread already. This is a private forum, though, and so all I can do is grovel - so I plead that you use your buttons less on this topic and generally. Moderation in a forum like this should be reserved for distinctly toxic actors who manage to make the entire forum about them and have no interest in contributing to discussion. It isn’t for enforcing a line. Lastly, you say you aren’t enforcing the “CIA line” - but anyone with an understanding of how ideology functions should know you don’t have to consciously do this when the mainstream coverage of China is as warped and pro-western as it is. FREE ALL CSPAM POLITICAL PRISONERS
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Mar 24, 2021 19:15
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Dustcat posted:Because I think all we can do is quote Internet sources at each other, unless we want to send a delegation to Xinjiang to see if there's any genocide going on, and China is like sure guys come right in. Kashgar is on the shortlist for me so maybe later this year I dunno.
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Mar 24, 2021 19:16
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AnimeIsTrash posted:So what qualifies you to speak out about the other threads in the forum if you don't participate in any of them? This isn't a troll or attack, it just seems to me that a lot of people post solely in that thread, pop out to start a fight in another thread, and then go back to the trump thread to rally people for them. I have discussed the issue in the Trump thread and the climate change thread. I wasn’t commenting on other threads, nor have I gone into other threads to start fights. I am not responsible for the actions of other posters who happen to post in the same threads that I post in. Regarding my qualifications, I was a bit of a Chinaphile when I was younger. Studied Chinese language and history in college and even went on a study trip to Beijing, Chengdu, Shanghai, and Tibet back in 04. Since you’ve brought it up, what are your qualifications for having an opinion on this matter.
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Mar 24, 2021 19:16
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AnimeIsTrash posted:So what qualifies you to speak out about the other threads in the forum if you don't participate in any of them? This isn't a troll or attack, it just seems to me that a lot of people post solely in that thread, pop out to start a fight in another thread, and then go back to the trump thread to rally people for them. Posters can be pretty aggro if you're fairly ignorant to certain issues, I don't know about China much and I've wanted to ask questions about the region cause I know next to nothing but I also don't want to deal with some of the more toxic posters so I just lurked it most of the time. Pulling up people's post histories just to shut down discussions is pretty dumb imo and that should stop if people actually want to try and discuss things and not just yell at each other.
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Mar 24, 2021 19:16
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Grapplejack posted:Has there been any mod action on xinjiang stuff? I haven't seen anything and I post a lot in the east asia / succ threads. here's some recent examples Bathtub Cheese posted:China will have always been along for the ride with respect to carbon intensive modernization because the alternative was some flavor of neocolonial relationship with the West. Lostconfused posted:So are you just going to stay mad or will you finally post some more propaganda here? Rated PG-34 posted:no really, post the source so I can be convinced or unconvinced Zeno-25 posted:
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Mar 24, 2021 19:18
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There has been a large amount of banning and probating regarding Acceptable China Opinions in the last couple months. If you aren’t aware of that you probably aren’t in the discussions where this is occurring. That’s why this thread exists.
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Mar 24, 2021 19:20
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I was one of the people arguing with Bathtub Cheese when they got that probe. That post didn’t seem probe worthy to me at the time, and it doesn’t seem probe worthy now.
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Mar 24, 2021 19:23
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Hot Karl Marx posted:Posters can be pretty aggro if you're fairly ignorant to certain issues, I don't know about China much and I've wanted to ask questions about the region cause I know next to nothing but I also don't want to deal with some of the more toxic posters so I just lurked it most of the time. Pulling up people's post histories just to shut down discussions is pretty dumb imo and that should stop if people actually want to try and discuss things and not just yell at each other. I don't think this is true at all. I definitely was a dick to someone I didn't think was operating in good faith when asking questions about China in the communism thread, but other people engaged earnestly and there was good discussion. The same happens in the China thread. I know that greenwald is charged topic but when someone stumbles into the greenwald appreciation thread and goes "greenwald dumb" you can kind of assume that they're not operating in the best of faith. I don't think that all trump thread posters are bad, the ones that are more active in threads that I post/lurk in a lot seem to be the ones that start a lot of fights.
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Mar 24, 2021 19:23
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Zeno-25 was a dumb "yay gulags" moron but he's considerably better than the people screaming about "daddy xi". I don't think I've ever used any chinese or chinese adjacent sources to argue anything. Frankly the western sources themselves are weak enough that they begin melting the second you apply scrutiny to them.
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Mar 24, 2021 19:24
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I don't particularly care about "free speech" and am happy to see genocide deniers probated or banned, but I think it's clear at this point that the empirical facts of Chinese (re)education and repression programs are unclear enough, and inflected enough by propaganda from either side, that it is not natively obvious what is happening over there. Therefore, it's subject to political discussion and debate, and someone raising questions about it in either direction should not be understood to be stirring poo poo in bad faith or to be doing the equivalent of holocaust denial.
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Mar 24, 2021 19:29
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THS posted:I don’t think there is any way to setup a poll of active CSPAM posters that wouldn’t be abused, but anecdotally the active participants of the threads do not have an issue with the topic as it was being discussed, or at least do not consider banning it as being appropriate even if they disagree. If someone from the Trump thread or D&D or GBS can’t handle a discussion of China that doesn’t obsessively manufacture consent for the new cold war with China, they should probably not read the LF or China threads in CSPAM. This is a good post, i'd add that Brutalist McDonalds was a mod for quite a while and no one was complaining about him.
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Mar 24, 2021 19:29
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THS posted:I don’t think there is any way to setup a poll of active CSPAM posters that wouldn’t be abused, but anecdotally the active participants of the threads do not have an issue with the topic as it was being discussed, or at least do not consider banning it as being appropriate even if they disagree. If someone from the Trump thread or D&D or GBS can’t handle a discussion of China that doesn’t obsessively manufacture consent for the new cold war with China, they should probably not read the LF or China threads in CSPAM. These two points specifically are where I'm at. I don't post a lot about China but the degree to which the moderation team in general is willing to police the discussion about the US's ongoing genocidal projects according to the US government's propaganda line and police the discussion about China's ongoing genocidal projects also according to the US government's propaganda line makes it pretty hard to take the idea of an honest discussion on these topics seriously. But that said fewer mod/ik dunks on people shitposting about provable agitprop in the shitposting forum would be welcome.
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Mar 24, 2021 19:36
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If the forums can permaban an admin for genocide denial, they can probate the tankies for genocide denial until they stop kramering in and making GBS threads up unrelated threads with very tedious and unfunny posts denying an ongoing genocide. I will continue to report posts featuring genocide denial.
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Mar 24, 2021 19:36
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AnimeIsTrash, why do I have to justify my qualifications regarding my views on China, but you do not? This isn’t a troll or attack.
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Mar 24, 2021 19:37
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holy poo poo rime still exists why
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Mar 24, 2021 19:38
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The Oldest Man posted:These two points specifically are where I'm at. I don't post a lot about China but the degree to which the moderation team in general is willing to police the discussion about the US's ongoing genocidal projects according to the US government's propaganda line and police the discussion about China's ongoing genocidal projects also according to the US government's propaganda line makes it pretty hard to take the idea of an honest discussion on these topics seriously. when you talk about the mod team policing discussion about the US's genocide projects, are you talking about cspam mods?
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Mar 24, 2021 19:41
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Hairy Marionette posted:AnimeIsTrash, why do I have to justify my qualifications regarding my views on China, but you do not? This isn’t a troll or attack. Regarding my qualifications, I was a bit of a Chinaphile when I was younger. Studied Chinese language and history in college and even went on a study trip to Beijing, Chengdu, Shanghai, and Tibet back in 04.
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Mar 24, 2021 19:42
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AnimeIsTrash posted:Regarding my qualifications, I was a bit of a Chinaphile when I was younger. Studied Chinese language and history in college and even went on a study trip to Beijing, Chengdu, Shanghai, and Tibet back in 04. What is your point?
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Mar 24, 2021 19:42
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Lostconfused posted:If you want to call it genocide then everything should be called genocide. It's insane that a mention of China gets a "bu bu genocide" as some kind of an own when USA is carrying out multiple genocides by the same standard. is anyone in cspam not actively calling out what the us is doing along it’s southern boarder to migrants genocide? or for that matter what ever evil any other country is doing?
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Mar 24, 2021 19:44
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Hairy Marionette posted:What is your point? I was just responding to your qualifications with my qualifications. Just so we're on the same footing. This isn't a thread for silly slapfights, it's for talking about CSPAM moderation. Thank you.
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Mar 24, 2021 19:44
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Gringostar posted:is anyone in cspam not actively calling out what the us is doing along it’s southern boarder to migrants genocide? D&D has been probing people for using the term concentration camp in regards to our migrant internment camps. Posters may be conflating that with CSPAM stuff.
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Mar 24, 2021 19:45
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Crusty Nutsack posted:when you talk about the mod team policing discussion about the US's genocide projects, are you talking about cspam mods? No but the China rule is not solely the province of the CSPAM mods so this conversation not addressing the wider site is part of what makes me skeptical that it's really all that honest to begin with.
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Mar 24, 2021 19:46
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Hairy Marionette posted:D&D has been probing people for using the term concentration camp in regards to our migrant internment camps. Posters may be conflating that with CSPAM stuff. why would anyone post in d&d though?
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Mar 24, 2021 19:47
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Rime posted:If the forums can permaban an admin for genocide denial, they can probate the tankies for genocide denial until they stop kramering in and making GBS threads up unrelated threads with very tedious and unfunny posts denying an ongoing genocide. the phantom of the subforum has spoken *organ sting*
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Mar 24, 2021 19:47
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AnimeIsTrash posted:I was just responding to your qualifications with my qualifications. Just so we're on the same footing. This isn't a thread for silly slapfights, it's for talking about CSPAM moderation. Thank you. If you don’t want a slap fight don’t start one. Instead, respond to people with respect and an attempt at understanding.
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Mar 24, 2021 19:47
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