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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Not really unless you consider Northern Virginia to be the entire war, and besides having them be useless pushovers is really boring gameplay-wise. If I have the option to, without great difficulty, avoid massive losses with minimum inconvenience I will take that option. This lets me engage with other challenges the game presents, such as conquering Britain.
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May 26, 2021 23:42
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true, I could have ironclad duels with the CSA or send the entire British navy to the bottom in a single battle
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May 26, 2021 23:45
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:I'm baffled that people do the gamey yankee soldier play in a game like Vicky. It's not like you're going for an EU cheevo. Similarly I don't understand people who powergame in CK. IMO the US should just have pretty stringent restrictions on their army size (and thus the number of soldier pops) that remains in place until either after the civil war has broken out, they get into a war with a great power or you complete some kind of "strengthen the central government" chain of events after having navigated the slavery crisis peacefully. While the pre-war army played some part in providing some experienced officers to both sides in the civil war, both the Union and the Confederacy essentially built their armies from scratch.
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May 26, 2021 23:55
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Randarkman posted:While the pre-war army played some part in providing some experienced officers to both sides in the civil war, both the Union and the Confederacy essentially built their armies from scratch. If that's the case, why not make it so when the civil war fires all soldier pops are demobilized so both sides start with nothing. You can also give the feds a debuff to soldier buildup and mobilization speed to allow the CSA to gather strength faster so it can actually put up a fight
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May 26, 2021 23:59
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really queer Christmas posted:If that's the case, why not make it so when the civil war fires all soldier pops are demobilized so both sides start with nothing. You can also give the feds a debuff to soldier buildup and mobilization speed to allow the CSA to gather strength faster so it can actually put up a fight That's pretty much how HoI4 does it, you get event troops
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May 27, 2021 00:06
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really queer Christmas posted:If that's the case, why not make it so when the civil war fires all soldier pops are demobilized so both sides start with nothing. You can also give the feds a debuff to soldier buildup and mobilization speed to allow the CSA to gather strength faster so it can actually put up a fight Possibly, it's not really as though the pre-war army ceased existing, it's more that in terms of the size of the armies involved the civil war just blew it out of the water (not to mention the casualties). I still think the actual restriction should be army size, however that could be set up more organically in the US not having any interest groups of consequence that really support militarism in terms of high military spending or conscription, I imagine that these are going to be policies that you need support from IGs to implement. Then actually turning it around to get IGs supporting such policies should require alot of effort on the part of the player or a more existential struggle such as war with a great power, or a big civil war.
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May 27, 2021 00:06
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Randarkman posted:Possibly, it's not really as though the pre-war army ceased existing, it's more that in terms of the size of the armies involved the civil war just blew it out of the water (not to mention the casualties). The only problem I could see with this is that the US in most games it is going to fight the Mexican-American War right before the Civil war and they shouldn't be crippled in a way that's gonna get in the way of fighting that war
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May 27, 2021 00:11
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Randarkman posted:Possibly, it's not really as though the pre-war army ceased existing, it's more that in terms of the size of the armies involved the civil war just blew it out of the water (not to mention the casualties). for example, the number of troops actually engaged in battle at first bull run was 28% larger then the number of all men in the army the previous year. including the troops that didn't see any fighting blows the number up to 190% e: there were more soldiers at first bull run then there were US soldiers involved in the mexican american war Raskolnikov38 fucked around with this message at 00:19 on May 27, 2021 |
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May 27, 2021 00:15
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The size of the US army in the lead up to the Civil War should only really be limited due to emergent gameplay reasons that keep to the spirit of the US's geopolitical and domestic political situation but not something that's enforced rigidly on you. For example, suppose after the US-Mexico war the vast majority of your pops and their interest groups just hate the idea of tax payers funding expensive wars; especially northern pops who don't want to fund the expansion of slavery. Eeeeeeh? Eeeeh? Eh? See how that works out? Then you have to pay political costs with your political capital (perhaps a resource that accumulates according to various modifiers and actions, like Grace in CK2), opportunity costs where maybe funding a larger US army means making concessions with Southerners to get around Northern intransigence. But if you want to have a larger army and give slavers the bird then you need to make gaurantees that the new states are free states which of course risks provoking the US Civil War a decade early, perhaps before you're ready for it. Also honourary mention that an improved version of the substate system could model something like the National Guard units that would form the initial core of the Confederate Army; you could make a system that whenever states/districts break away and form a breakaway nation/rebellion the local units get donated to the "main" army of the rebelling army so they start with a army directly under their control made up of the guard/militia units and the states regen the units they just donated; ala the levee system from CK2 in a way. And if you don't want to have to play by those rules then you can keep the Federal forces as-is at their post Mexico War draw down size and not have to settle the issue of slavery immediately and instead kick the can down the road! Just like in real life! AnEdgelord posted:The only problem I could see with this is that the US in most games it is going to fight the Mexican-American War right before the Civil war and they shouldn't be crippled in a way that's gonna get in the way of fighting that war The way I imagine it should work is that when you go to war you have some sort of subsystem to pass War Time wars to raise funds, expand the army etc that similar to the policies in Hoi4 only become available due to high jingoism/revanchism or because you're at war; but once you're out of the war there needs to be a political or economic pressure to start a draw down until your tech/laws/etc get to the point you can keep that expansion going (like the European states engaging in an arms race and Germany/UK passing social welfare reforms to have the political support and healthy population to sustain that build up). The US historically demobilized quite significantly after each conflict keeping an easily expandable core of officers and NCOs which is somewhat of a special case but that can be modeled by the US's interest groups/pops being firmly anti-military until around WW1 to force that sort of elastic snapback to the pre-war normal. Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 00:22 on May 27, 2021 |
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May 27, 2021 00:17
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Not really unless you consider Northern Virginia to be the entire war, and besides having them be useless pushovers is really boring gameplay-wise. Because it's really funny crushing the unpleasant Pro slavery state easily
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May 27, 2021 00:18
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AnEdgelord posted:The only problem I could see with this is that the US in most games it is going to fight the Mexican-American War right before the Civil war and they shouldn't be crippled in a way that's gonna get in the way of fighting that war In the Mexican-American war, both sides fielded about 80,000 men total and the total number of military casualties wasn't much higher than ~10,000 (killed and wounded, both sides). It just doesn't come close. Raenir Salazar posted:The size of the US army in the lead up to the Civil War should only really be limited due to emergent gameplay reasons that keep to the spirit of the US's geopolitical and domestic political situation but not something that's enforced rigidly on you. For example, suppose after the US-Mexico war the vast majority of your pops and their interest groups just hate the idea of tax payers funding expensive wars; especially northern pops who don't want to fund the expansion of slavery. Eeeeeeh? Eeeeh? Eh? See how that works out? Then you have to pay political costs with your political capital (perhaps a resource that accumulates according to various modifiers and actions, like Grace in CK2), opportunity costs where maybe funding a larger US army means making concessions with Southerners to get around Northern intransigence. Yeah, I think if you do something like this then it should be as dynamic as possible and actually play with the game's systems rather than just be hard limits/restrictions. And yeah, finding ways (engaging ones that tie into the game's political gamepaly and the historical situation as you're suggesting) to limit the size of the US's military forces, especially the army, prior to the civil war should be a priority I think. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 00:23 on May 27, 2021 |
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May 27, 2021 00:18
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forkboy84 posted:Because it's really funny crushing the unpleasant Pro slavery state easily You must have a lot of fun in HoI
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May 27, 2021 00:22
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I know I do
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May 27, 2021 00:25
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Really I think the best way to model things is to severely limit any sort of mass conscription mechanic for most all countries in the early game, with notable exceptions being the big European powers that were pioneering the concept at the time (so I guess France and Prussia?). Mass conscription can be something a country develops willfully either through tech or political maneuvering or whatnot or can be a consequence of major events, in the US's case the Civil War forcing the hand of both sides. If done right this would also remove the need to arbitrarily railroad the world into a "Great War" scenario by the turn of the 20th century. Great Wars wouldn't really be possible before that time period even if all the diplomatic conditions are in place because the military tech and ability to employ mass conscription on your people and also move and supply millions of said people wouldn't be a thing. Having professional armies fighting each other in isolated battlefields with decisive victors does not a forever hell war make after all, even if everyone is doing it to each other.
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May 27, 2021 02:51
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Just based on the experience of other Paradox titles, the hard thing is going to be finding a way to stop every war from turning into a total war as the AI (and player) throw every army they have into every fight.
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May 27, 2021 03:28
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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PittTheElder posted:Just based on the experience of other Paradox titles, the hard thing is going to be finding a way to stop every war from turning into a total war as the AI (and player) throw every army they have into every fight. fortunately vicky has a built-in solution to this; your manpower is drawn from pops and getting soldiers killed can have real demographic effects on your nation. you're encouraged to think about your level of commitment much more than in other paradox games, where soldiers are magical extra dudes that live only for war there's a reason people clamor for paradox to include real pop systems every time they announce a new game; a lot of ahistorical problems with the standard paradox gameplay go away when your people are a real factor in how you play Jazerus fucked around with this message at 04:06 on May 27, 2021 |
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May 27, 2021 04:02
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https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/401472926312038412/847322739563429888/STOP_POLITICISING.mp4 Wiz how does it feel to be a meme
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May 27, 2021 05:01
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Jazerus posted:fortunately vicky has a built-in solution to this; your manpower is drawn from pops and getting soldiers killed can have real demographic effects on your nation. you're encouraged to think about your level of commitment much more than in other paradox games, where soldiers are magical extra dudes that live only for war whoops i built a jingoist government with the armed forces as the political base for that jingoism and then all my soldiers died and now all my nation of widows and orphans has radicalized against me
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May 27, 2021 06:23
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Ofaloaf posted:ha ha i'm a dev on this Officially, this means that Vicky 3 is a goon project now.
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May 27, 2021 06:28
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wiz is like a couple of pages up the thread man, lol
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May 27, 2021 06:31
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Takanago posted:whoops i built a jingoist government with the armed forces as the political base for that jingoism and then all my soldiers died and now all my nation of widows and orphans has radicalized against me as long as there remains one loyal pop with a maxim gun then all the world's widows and all the world's tiny, pathetic orphans will not be enough to make this government move
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May 27, 2021 06:32
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one goon on a project and it might not qualify as a goon project. 2 goons though? that's fuckin' guaranteed goony
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May 27, 2021 06:45
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ANOTHER SCORCHER posted:Unironically, because time spent developing dumb goggles-and-gears scenarios could be better spent modeling the unique real world economic and political circumstances of 19th century Persia. If the influence of corpse traffic in Karbala and Najaf on Persian resettlement of Iraq isn't properly modeled I'm gonna write an incredibly angry note to Wiz.
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May 27, 2021 06:56
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Mantis42 posted:as long as there remains one loyal pop with a maxim gun then all the world's widows and all the world's tiny, pathetic orphans will not be enough to make this government move Whatever happens, we have got the Maxim gun, and they do not.
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May 27, 2021 06:57
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things i loved about vicky II: If you play as independent new england, you can accidently launch a lovecraft sideplot jan mayen has the potential to be an incredibly powerful state
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May 27, 2021 08:31
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really queer Christmas posted:https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/401472926312038412/847322739563429888/STOP_POLITICISING.mp4 Feels good man.
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May 27, 2021 08:53
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really queer Christmas posted:Wiz how does it feel to be a meme The best part of that announcement was definitely Mikael dropping a Mao quote
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May 27, 2021 09:22
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Having all of your military be of a single culture (like Yankee or Dixie) should upset the other cultures in your country who rightfully believe the state no longer represents them or their interests. It'd be a soft barrier to gaming things like the American civil war by recruiting all-Yankee pops; you can do that, but the Dixies won't be happy about it and might get events raising their own militias in response or something like that.
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May 27, 2021 09:49
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Did Vicky 2 model any pandemic events? Cholera became a real headache for the western world starting at 1820ish.
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May 27, 2021 11:58
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BigglesSWE posted:Did Vicky 2 model any pandemic events? Cholera became a real headache for the western world starting at 1820ish. There were random events, which became less likely the more you researched medicine techs
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May 27, 2021 12:00
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What was the timeframe of Vicky 2 again? The Spanish Flu wasn't modeled? That seems like a strange oversight, coming from my current point of view. I sometimes wonder how Paradox games in 100 years will portrait the recent past. How do you do a natural break-up of the Soviet Union, and things like German unification and Czechoslovakia's dissolution without railroading the player? How would they model Israel's occupation of Palestine, Chinese genocide of the Uighurs, etc.? Or the huge impact economic sanctions had in Iraq, Iran, Cuba and North Korea? Will there be a scripted Coronavirus pandemic? Edit: Can there even be a Paradox game set in the recent past, where border changes were so, so much less common than in the pre-WW2 period? Perhaps Vicky 3's focus on growing your own nation will be a blueprint for such a game.
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May 27, 2021 12:26
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100 years is an incredible amount of time. We literally can't know what will be possible to program that far in the future. And assuming Paradox will be around is fairly bold. Like, Disney isn't 100 yet.
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May 27, 2021 12:31
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In the year 1900 people thought it was literally impossible for airplanes to become a thing of serious note. 1950 people predicted that we’d all be on the moon by now. What I’m saying is that the dedicating future events is pretty arbitrary and simply not possible. We don’t have the information needed. We’re also less than a hundred years from splitting the atom.
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May 27, 2021 12:43
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Super Jay Mann posted:Really I think the best way to model things is to severely limit any sort of mass conscription mechanic for most all countries in the early game, with notable exceptions being the big European powers that were pioneering the concept at the time (so I guess France and Prussia?). Mass conscription can be something a country develops willfully either through tech or political maneuvering or whatnot or can be a consequence of major events, in the US's case the Civil War forcing the hand of both sides. The Union didn't even implement conscription until 1863. I think it'd be cool to have a "call for volunteers" button, at least for certain governments, that would be a sort of soft mobilization. It gives you fewer units but pisses people off less. Or maybe instead of straight giving you units it just massively increases conversion to soldiers and reduces training time or something like that. Another example would be Britain that tried to go into the Great War without a draft. For that matter I wonder if conscription terms will be a law. On the opposite side you had the confederacy, which due to a combination of low war support and extremely pro-wealthy conscription terms was fighting an ongoing guerilla war the whole time against men who didn't want to fight for it.
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May 27, 2021 12:44
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Cholera really should be a major event I feel, since it caused a whole lot of ruckus in Europe. Hundreds of thousands died in Paris alone; primarily from the poorer classes, ensuring that rumors started to spread that the upper classes were poisoning them.
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May 27, 2021 12:46
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Not really unless you consider Northern Virginia to be the entire war, and besides having them be useless pushovers is really boring gameplay-wise. People play games for different things, i powergame the gently caress out of CK, i dunk on that game a lot.
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May 27, 2021 12:56
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Torrannor posted:What was the timeframe of Vicky 2 again? The Spanish Flu wasn't modeled? That seems like a strange oversight, coming from my current point of view. How would it be modeled besides a boring pop up event about losing 3% of craftsmen or something
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May 27, 2021 13:17
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Raenir Salazar posted:
CK1 had a good system for making you demobilize/sending the levees home afterward: they made them expensive as f*ck and if you kept them raised too long you went super bankrupt. I can't remember if that was true in Vicky 1 as well (It's true in EU4, for sure). In CK2 I feel like they really failed to model that, if you want to see big countries demobilize after a war make armies super expensive to maintain.
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May 27, 2021 13:27
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Vasukhani posted:I hope that the confed actually puts up a meaningful fight though. In Vicky II it was really anti-climatic. There was one game I played as ultra conservative Austria where they somehow survived and ended up being the sixth great power. I allied them so the world war was a monstrosity where Germany and Austria fought Russia and France while civil war 2 ran on the other side of the Atlantic.
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May 27, 2021 13:43
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Torrannor posted:What was the timeframe of Vicky 2 again? The Spanish Flu wasn't modeled? That seems like a strange oversight, coming from my current point of view. There is a thread on CSPAM that should be right up your alley!! 
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