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What happens if so.e lady with a cardboard sign jumps out and makes them all crash again lol
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Jul 25, 2021 08:08
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A HORNY SWEARENGEN posted:No one holds 1st the whole time. And you'd straight up die trying to. You absolutely have to fall back for recovery no matter what. Long range solo breakaway wins are rare, but wins from small breakaway groups happen. How much support goes up up to those riders depends on how good their chances look.
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Jul 25, 2021 08:10
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loving crazy win for Austria in the women's road race, dang
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Jul 25, 2021 09:17
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Rarity posted:loving crazy win for Austria in the women's road race, dang It was unbelievable, an incredible ride start to finish from her. This has to be the biggest upset ever in Olympic road cycling, she doesn't even have a pro contract.
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Jul 25, 2021 09:19
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 the rider that got the silver medal thinking she won the race cause the gap was so big.
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Jul 25, 2021 09:19
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Rarity posted:For these long road races I gather the bikers have cars at the back behind the peloton they can drop to for picking food/water but what happens to the people who break away and lead? Are they just hosed if they need to re-up on water? As people have said there are cars, but they can only interpose between the peloton and the breakaway if you open up enough of a gap. You don't want to be in a breakaway 25 seconds ahead of the bunch.
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Jul 25, 2021 09:21
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Found a better shot She totally thought she won from the broadcast. SLICK GOKU BABY fucked around with this message at 09:30 on Jul 25, 2021 |
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Jul 25, 2021 09:28
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SLICK GOKU BABY posted:
lmao I don't care about this sport at all but it was still thrilling to see Kiesenhofer win gold
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Jul 25, 2021 09:31
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turned on the BBC coverage just in time to be told that something mindblowingly amazing had happened 10 seconds before, the classic unplanned olympic watching experience. still so gleeful this person I hadn't heard of 30 minutes ago won what's the anti-indoor-cycling story, they'll be trying to push that here
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Jul 25, 2021 09:38
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incredible ive definitely see someone think they've won with a rider in the break up the road before but never in a race this important lol
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Jul 25, 2021 11:05
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No team radios allowed, so I can totally see someone loosing track of a lone breakaway in the scrum of the peloton.
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Jul 25, 2021 13:16
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tbh the bigger problem was them letting a relatively good break get 10 minutes when absolutely no team was going to help set pace and chase it down when the Dutch had three of the four pre-race favorites on their team
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Jul 25, 2021 14:14
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kimbo305 posted:Long range solo breakaway wins are rare, but wins from small breakaway groups happen. How much support goes up up to those riders depends on how good their chances look. the most famous one (similar to today) was when a random French guy won the Tour of Flanders (one of the most important one-day bike races) when a total breakdown in peloton leadership between the two leading teams saw the early no-hope break get an absurd gap of like 25 minutes here one of the problems was that the Dutch were the heavy favorites and would have been expected to set pace for that reason. but since they misread the race situation, things totally fell apart when the Dutch stopped chasing, and the teams that knew there was a rider up the road (Italy, apparently) didn't particularly feel like chasing it down for the benefit of the Dutch there are a bunch of reasons you want to breakaway even if it has virtually no hope. one is that if you aren't a pre-race favorite, going in a no-hope break and hoping the peloton screws it up is legitimately the best chance you have to win (which happened today). the more important reason is that if you're in the breakaway, your team can chill out in the peloton without setting pace, because why chase a group of leaders when one of your teammates is in it? cycling is cool for that kind of thing, the peloton is basically a big game-theory-based rolling negotiation on who sets pace to bring the breakaway back Feels Villeneuve fucked around with this message at 14:30 on Jul 25, 2021 |
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Jul 25, 2021 14:20
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The only reason I can see why the Dutch did what they did was they didn't know someone was up the road. But they had 4 riders with Marianne Vos, one of the greatest of all time, essentially riding as a domestique, the team car should have told them at some point in the 40km before the finish. It was so bizarre to watch.
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Jul 25, 2021 14:42
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even without that mistake it was a moronic move for them to give a not-particularly-weak break 10 minutes. you can do that in a race with more high quality teams and teammates, but in a Woman's Olympic race where a majority of the pre-race favorites comprise the Dutch team, that's one where you really should be giving them a 4-5 minute leash. the men's WC race can get away with a 20 minute breakaway because it almost always consists of semi-pro riders from smaller nations who want exposure. also unlike the woman's field, multiple teams will have pre-race favorites and be willing to set pace, and the peloton is full of world class roleur domestiques. you can't do that at the womans Olympic race e) also the dutch really should have been expecting to chase all day and not set their team up with three pre-race favorites. i honestly think they wanted to sweep the podium Feels Villeneuve fucked around with this message at 14:52 on Jul 25, 2021 |
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Jul 25, 2021 14:48
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None of them were dutch, but would there ever be a benefit for the other breakaway riders that got caught to yell "hey, there's one more" or is yelling things out something that never happens?
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Jul 25, 2021 15:00
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Feels Villeneuve posted:There's a woman's road race. Woman's cycling is cool as hell but the Dutch will win it because they always do. Rarity posted:loving crazy win for Austria in the women's road race, dang Came in here after unexpectedly being absolutely hooked on watching both of the road races to ask: can someone explain what the hell was going on with the peloton? The Australian commentator was dragging on them the whole time going "what the hell is the peloton doing, why aren't they attacking, they are so disorganized, this is unbelievable". Then in the post-interviews, the Dutch team are still going "no, our strategy was fine, we were just working off the wrong information". What exactly was their strategy? How do you lose count of the people who were ahead? Like I get if you're riding in the middle of the crowd it's hard to count but most of the Dutch team were up front the whole time! Also, how does not having race radios matter? Wouldn't at least one person in each team car just be streaming the live coverage of the race on their phone? Was the race held in a dead zone and nobody had reception? (we legit didn't expect to be so interested; mainly because road cycling scares me and Serious Cyclists in Race Lycra really, really intimidate me and also trying to ride any closer than 1m from the rear wheel of another bike in front of me is terrifying and even my husband who is way more into bikes than I am at this point thought we would be bored after 2 mins and wow, road cycling turned out to be super exciting and fun to watch) EDIT: also kind of a shame that van Vleuten's race has been eclipsed, especially after she stacked it earlier in the race. That looked painful. https://www.eurosport.com/cycling/t...612/story.shtml Leng fucked around with this message at 15:06 on Jul 25, 2021 |
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Jul 25, 2021 15:02
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Leng posted:(we legit didn't expect to be so interested; mainly because road cycling scares me and Serious Cyclists in Race Lycra really, really intimidate me and also trying to ride any closer than 1m from the rear wheel of another bike in front of me is terrifying) fun fact: this is something you share with the winner, who quit the WWT level a few years back and instead rides for an austrian national level team cause she doesnt like riding in a peloton
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Jul 25, 2021 15:14
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professional races have the riders carrying radios and live updates on the gap. international races (the olympics/european championships/world championships) don't. in a situation like that it wouldn't be unusual for the Dutch team car to ride up to the peloton and yell out the window (or informing one of the Dutch riders when she dropped back for a feed) so i'm going to assume that somehow the Dutch team car wasn't aware of the situation either (a few team members from other teams chimed in online saying they were fully aware of a rider up the road and had no idea what the Dutch were doing). a lot of the info floating around is dubious (possibly CYA from the Dutch team) but they also mentioned that the time gaps they were getting were to the next chasing group and not the lead of the race. frequently you have dudes with chalkboards on motorbikes giving time gaps, but that's a courtesy to the riders and not required in the rules, iirc.
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Jul 25, 2021 15:15
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Leng posted:Came in here after unexpectedly being absolutely hooked on watching both of the road races to ask: can someone explain what the hell was going on with the peloton? The Australian commentator was dragging on them the whole time going "what the hell is the peloton doing, why aren't they attacking, they are so disorganized, this is unbelievable". So in general the Dutch tend not to push the pace at the front of the race. They've got great sprinters and with 4 riders they can effectively lead 1 or 2 riders out for the finish line. (Leading out is where someone goes to the front and you tuck in right behind them to shield yourself from the wind and you conserve your energy). It seems what happened here was the Dutch team thought they had caught the breakaway so went back to sandbagging the peloton because they knew they'd be able to deliver someone to win the race. Whats really wild about it is I do not doubt of a moment that if the Dutch knew there was someone up the road they could have caught them.
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Jul 25, 2021 15:44
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also i think the dutch sent riders on the attack after they caught what they thought was the leading group because their riders are strong enough to make it to the end from a relatively long distance (see: https://howtheracewaswon.com/2019/world-championships-women ). surge-and-stop attack and regroup tends to screw up a chase and actually be slower than riding at a high steady pace.
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Jul 25, 2021 15:51
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Leng posted:Also, how does not having race radios matter? Wouldn't at least one person in each team car just be streaming the live coverage of the race on their phone? Was the race held in a dead zone and nobody had reception? In this particular case, there’s little excuse for the Dutch car not correcting the obviously bad intel their riders were running on — the last 20k were on a wide (for cycling) road with a diminished peloton — the team could easily have flagged their riders down with plenty of time to get their act together. quote:trying to ride any closer than 1m from the rear wheel of another bike in front of me is terrifying Lots of one day races in the spring end up having cool upsets (though from slightly more nuanced tactical mistakes, if not from a difference in raw performance), so you should give the next season a shot. People thinking they’ve won also happens, but usually from someone miscounting lap, sprinting, and celebrating just before the peloton surges past them.
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Jul 25, 2021 15:59
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kimbo305 posted:As long as you can dissociate how you ride on the street with strangers from how pros navigate a much more (usually) closed off and prepared course, you should be able to enjoy their exploits with being distracted by the very real element of danger. They also practice a lot and still get it wrong sometimes, see Geraint Thomas crashing again. I do Triathlons and in that you're not even allowed to draft.
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Jul 25, 2021 16:17
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The info that the Dutch didn't know about the Austrian rider is false and its just them trying to cover their rear end. Cecilie Uttrup Ludwig has given an interview where she said she was screaming at everyone to get organised and chase it down 40km out because of the rider still so far in front but the Dutch just didn't want to do any work and instead kept trying to attack. This is a perfect example of why you shouldn't take the 'best' riders you have in every situation and should instead build a team. Especially since The Netherlands have won the last 2 world championships by doing exactly the same thing they tried today, just this time the other nations didn't help them chase at all. For example they finished 1st, 2nd and 4th in the world championships last year with this same team. I agree with Feels, I think the Dutch wanted at least the gold and silver medal, and hopefully all 3.
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Jul 25, 2021 16:23
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Weather w they knew or not the Dutch absolutely hosed it. If you don't watch a lot of cycling it's hard to describe just how much of an upset this was. People just don't win with long range breakaways, far less solo and absolutely not if they don't even have a top pro contract. So as much as the Dutch got it wrong Anna rode and incredible race and it we shouldn't diminish that.
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Jul 25, 2021 16:55
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yeah it happens in stage races quite a bit but it's extremely rare for an early break to stick in a major one-day race someone won from the early break at Paris-Roubaix in 2016 but that was a bizarre race, the early break was unusually strong, it wasn't a "real" solo break because he was joined by riders attacking from the peloton and Paris-Roubaix is borderline uncontrollable anyway. Flanders '92 is the closest thing i can think of in the modern era.
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Jul 25, 2021 16:58
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Yeah stage races are their own beast and the reasons for breakaways working are different. I think Flanders 92 is really the only comparable thing.
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Jul 25, 2021 17:07
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serious gaylord posted:The info that the Dutch didn't know about the Austrian rider is false and its just them trying to cover their rear end. quote:I agree with Feels, I think the Dutch wanted at least the gold and silver medal, and hopefully all 3.
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Jul 25, 2021 17:09
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flanders 92 was hilarious, the French teams back then (and still now, to an extent) didn't give a poo poo about the Belgian races so the riders they sent there were either really young or mostly there as punishment for being out of shape. And they ended up winning
Feels Villeneuve fucked around with this message at 17:26 on Jul 25, 2021 |
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Jul 25, 2021 17:10
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also im still pissed about the world championship men's race where the field nearly got lapped on the finishing circuit by the breakaway before the race officials politely informed the the riders that the entire peloton would be eliminated if the leaders lapped them
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Jul 25, 2021 17:13
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as someone who knows nothing about cycling I have to ask why didn't one of the Dutch cyclists just go faster and win? The narrative seems to be that Kiesenhofer won it as much as the Dutch riders lost it, but if the Dutch cyclists easily have a better time than Kiesenhofer's in their locker then why didn't they do it? It's not like Kiesenhofer had much if any advantage from being in a pack, she was in a tiny group and then split from them anyway
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Jul 25, 2021 18:17
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it's possible they could have attacked from the peloton and tried to bridge to the break, but all the dutch cyclists would have been heavily marked by the leaders of the other teams who hadn't spent the race riding on the front and would be relatively fresh, meaning they'd likely be followed by one of the Italians/Americans who'd sit on her wheel and neutralize the attack. also they had by far the strongest team and there's no need for fancy tactics there, you catch the break and launch your late attack.
Feels Villeneuve fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Jul 25, 2021 |
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Jul 25, 2021 18:24
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serious gaylord posted:The info that the Dutch didn't know about the Austrian rider is false and its just them trying to cover their rear end. So if you're the second best from your country, the country shouldn't even give you a shot at winning? I don't understand. If I want to watch some of this replay but not the whole thing, where should I start it?
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Jul 25, 2021 18:25
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KingKapalone posted:So if you're the second best from your country, the country shouldn't even give you a shot at winning? I don't understand. cycling has the weird dynamic where it's a team sport even though individuals win it's understandably more difficult with small teams but given how strong the Dutch have been they should have expected that they'd be forced to ride on the front all day. just as an example the men's Belgian team were the favorites yesterday, they had two potential winners in Van Aert and Evenopoel but also had really valuable utility riders in GVA (who was never going to get over the climbs, but is great at towing the group), Benoot, and Vansevenant as support. and the Belgians weren't nearly as strong race favorites as the Dutch are. They didn't take a rider like Stuyven or Wellens because they didn't need another potential winner, they needed domestiques.
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Jul 25, 2021 18:38
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Feels Villeneuve posted:it's possible they could have attacked from the peloton and tried to bridge to the break, but all the dutch cyclists would have been heavily marked by the leaders of the other teams who hadn't spent the race riding on the front and would be relatively fresh, meaning they'd likely be followed by one of the Italians/Americans who'd sit on her wheel and neutralize the attack. also they had by far the strongest team and there's no need for fancy tactics there, you catch the break and launch your late attack. what I mean is that Kiesenhofer got like 3:52 or something if the Dutch cyclists can do faster, why didn't they? I understand there are tactical elements involved but doesn't it ultimately come down to how fast you can complete the track? If you're the strongest cyclist I don't really get why the peloton is that relevant, Kiesenhofer was never in it and won by a margin despite not being the strongest cyclist. or is it just that they fully believed she'd slow down/forgot about her?
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Jul 25, 2021 18:40
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Paperhouse posted:what I mean is that Kiesenhofer got like 3:52 or something there's a lot of bad info about whether or not they knew she was up the road, though even without that, they sat up and gave the break way too wide of a margin. 10 minutes in a woman's race of that distance is a gap you give a no-hope break, not one that had a few legitimately good riders in it, especially when you should know you'll be setting pace all day. it would have been difficult for any of the Dutch riders to be allowed to break away. the entire group would have freaked out and tried to bring them back. this kind of thing does occasionally happen, and it's not impossible for them to do that because they're the strongest riders in the peloton (and that practically happened at the 2019 World Championships), but it's much easier to let a weak break go, pace the field to a late catch and win in a late attack.
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Jul 25, 2021 18:45
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Paperhouse posted:as someone who knows nothing about cycling I have to ask So it's incredibly hard to bridge (as it's called) by yourself Kiesenhofer had a 2:30 min lead at 10km to go I want to say? I can't remember but lets use that, and lets pretend it's on a straight flat road. If Kiesenhofer is doing 40km/h and you're 2.5 min behind her then you're about 1.6km back, at 40km/h she will finish in 15 mins so to catch her you need to do 46 km/h flatout for 15 min alone. That's a really tough ask, as a team you could do that by taking turns on the front so you put in an effort then get to rest a little. Solo very very hard and as someone said if you set off to try and bridge people are just going to sit in your wheel and let you make that effort and not take a turn. That's a really over simplified example but once someone is out in front, you have to cycle a lot faster than them to catch up and thats hard. You'll see in races, like the mens road race someone just loses the wheel as it's called, a gap opens up between them and the rider immediately in front and that's them gone they wont be able to catch up again.
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Jul 25, 2021 18:48
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Aramoro posted:So it's incredibly hard to bridge (as it's called) by yourself Kiesenhofer had a 2:30 min lead at 10km to go I want to say? I can't remember but lets use that, and lets pretend it's on a straight flat road. If Kiesenhofer is doing 40km/h and you're 2.5 min behind her then you're about 1.6km back, at 40km/h she will finish in 15 mins so to catch her you need to do 46 km/h flatout for 15 min alone. That's a really tough ask, as a team you could do that by taking turns on the front so you put in an effort then get to rest a little. Solo very very hard and as someone said if you set off to try and bridge people are just going to sit in your wheel and let you make that effort and not take a turn. that makes sense, but I still don't get why they wouldn't have just gone earlier if they knew she was ahead. But maybe they didn't since Van Vleuten looked like she thought she'd won it lol in a way I still feel like it should just be "you're the best cyclist, go and get the fastest time and ignore everyone else" but I suppose that's a very simplistic and dumb way of thinking for this sport
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Jul 25, 2021 18:56
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like fundamentally, the reason for the peloton/breakaway dynamic is control. when the group is together the race is unstable, because anyone who jumps off the front is instantly in the race lead. everyone in the race is a lazy rear end in a top hat and doesn't want to ride hard for the entire race, so what happens is that a relatively weak group of riders is let up the road, meaning there's almost no incentive to attack out of the group anymore (in big races, you have domestiques ,basically: utility players, whose specialty is to police the breakaway and chase back breaks that they think are too dangerous, or chase down riders they don't want up the road). then you can rely on your rouleurs to tow the peloton all day and gradually bring the breakaway back, while your star riders chill out away from the wind, and then race for the win in the final x kilometers when the break is caught, or close enough to bridge to. when you're the outright favorites, you don't really "need" to do any fancy tactics- you want a controlled race that ends with your favorites attacking for the race win. it's the other teams who have more incentive to shake the tree tactically. there's also the question of who chases. in a stage race it's conventionally (though not always) the leader's team, because they have the most to lose if the break gets a bunch of time- in a one-day race, it's the race favorites because none of the other teams are going to set pace for their benefit. this was an unusual one because men's cycling rarely has the dynamic woman's cycling does now where one national team is such a blatant favorite that absolutely no other team would be willing to work to tow the field. the problem the dutch had was a) they let a relatively strong break go b) they gave the break way too much time c) they didn't have enough utility riders who'd be great at setting pace to control the break d) they apparently lost track of the time gap
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Jul 25, 2021 18:59
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| # ? Apr 27, 2024 06:24 |
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Paperhouse posted:in a way I still feel like it should just be "you're the best cyclist, go and get the fastest time and ignore everyone else" but I suppose that's a very simplistic and dumb way of thinking for this sport So that's what the Time Trials are that you'll see later in the week. That's one at a time over an empty course. Just fastest wins. The Road race has the Peloton which makes everything more complicated, you can save 40% of your effort if you're in there which is huge over a 1-200km race. The women were out there knocking on for 4 hours. Drafting changes everything. The most insane demonstration of drafting is in the Individual sprint in the indoor cycling. Watch that and then a lot of the road tactics will make more sense.
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Jul 25, 2021 19:01
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