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 About This Game: Warcraft 3 is an obscure game by a little-known studio called Blizzard. If you've heard of them, it was probably because of their puzzle game series Lost Vikings rather than for anything in the Warcraft Universe (or Starcraft or Diablo or...) Although not the sort of famous game that would spawn an even more famous MMO spinoff (or a fan-made mod that goes on to birth a new videogame genre), Warcraft 3 certainly has its charms. As a strategy game aficionado, I would describe it as the best RTS ever made. The story, graphics, multiplayer, level-design, and other features all still hold up quite well today. What's more, the game solves or at least ameliorates several problems which are endemic in most of the RTS genre. For example, many RTSes have a fairly boring and repetitive buildup phase. Warcraft 3 cut that phase down to 117 seconds. After that, the player will have have chosen a unique hero unit and the game becomes more like an RPG while the buildup continues in the background. Players send out their hero to slay monsters, gain new spells and magic items, or buy things from NPC merchants. Warcraft 3 very skillfully blends such RPG elements into more typical (and very well-designed) RTS gameplay. I fell in love with the game immediately after seeing someone play it in a middle school computer lab, and even more so after finding out just how many wonderful mods and fan-made games there are. Since it's so great already, I had no interest in the recent remaster. Just as well, since that's apparently not very good. I'll keep on happily playing the original version! About This LP: In all my previous Let's Plays (Fire Emblem 7, Fire Emblem 6, Civilization 2, Skyrim, Age of Mythology and its expansion), I began with a clear goal: completing some sort of challenge run of the game's story mode. In this case though I got back into the game spontaneously and started recording whatever struck my fancy. I didn't even decide I would make this Let's Play thread until I'd already recorded 5 or 6 videos. I'm not sure whether I will record the entire campaign or not. Warcraft 3's campaign is excellent, but some of its levels don't lend themselves to the strengths of my commentary style, which usually include speed and efficiency. Almost every Warcraft campaign mission is full of secrets and hidden goodies begging for a slow, completionist run. I enjoy doing that, but I'm not certain I would bring something new to the table. If it turns out that a lot of people do want to see me go through the campaign with a fine-toothed comb then I might well do so, but for now I think I will hand-pick a few favorite missions where I have a lot to say or an interesting strategy to show off. I may also branch out and show bits of warcraft outside the campaign, such as some of the game's special scenarios, fan-made scenarios I enjoyed, or even multiplayer (I used to be pretty good on the multiplayer ladder, though I'm a washed-up has-been after all these years!) Table of Contents: Human 5: March of the Scourge Undead 8: Under the Burning Sky Orc 3: Cry of the Warsong Orc 3: Cry of the Warsong (a different approach) Echo Isles Insane Computer, No Exploits, No Casualties Night Elf 3: The Awakening of Stormrage Special: Warchasers, 'Impossible' Singleplayer Special: Skibi's Castle TD, No Leaks Melth fucked around with this message at 19:03 on May 21, 2023 |
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Aug 16, 2021 07:46
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Well now I feel silly for always stocking up on permanent attack-increasing items and barely ever bothering with consumables.
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Aug 16, 2021 18:44
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Carpator Diei posted:Well now I feel silly for always stocking up on permanent attack-increasing items and barely ever bothering with consumables. Another thing I forgot to mention in the video is that, unlike in The Frozen Throne, orb items like the orb of fire don't even let you hit air units. People often seem to believe they do, which would admittedly be a decent argument in the orb of fire's favor.
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Aug 16, 2021 22:20
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Honestly, the big reason the Orb of Fire continues to be so hyped up is more of a legacy thing - it used to give twelve damage a swing, which was pretty huge for how early you get it. Beyond that, people tend to look at it doing splash damage (They changed it in multiplayer at some point, forget when, but I don't think that particular change made it to the campaign? Not sure where things sit in the Reforged campaign, been a while since I poked my head in there.), and think YAY SPLASH DAMAGE AWESOME, except the problem is the actual damage that splashes to other targets is tiny.
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Aug 17, 2021 21:05
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A comment on something you talked about in the video: there's a version of something similar to upkeep in WC3 that I prefer. Rise of Legends has escalating costs for units: your first foot soldier costs 50 minerals, say. Then the second costs 60. Third costs 70. And so on and so forth, with more advanced units having larger price increases. And as units die, the escalation goes back down. I think it not only creates the same economic/military tension that Upkeep does, but also provides a strong incentive to mix up the composition of your army and diversify the units you use.
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Aug 17, 2021 21:11
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BlazetheInferno posted:Honestly, the big reason the Orb of Fire continues to be so hyped up is more of a legacy thing - it used to give twelve damage a swing, which was pretty huge for how early you get it. For myself, I think one reason I still tend to go for +damage items is that their practical effects are easier for new/inexperienced/not very good(self included) players to get their minds around. "More damage = good" takes less brain power to process than using numerous consumables in a strategic fashion, or trying to remember what other stat-boosting items do. Also carry-over habits from most other RTS games where the thinking is "I need that gold to build units and upgrades; I can't waste it on a measly one-use healing scroll." Another part of the problem, I think, is players conceiving of heroes as main attacking/damage-dealing units rather than support units who can tank a bunch of damage that would otherwise be directed at your army. One tends to look at ways of increasing their raw power, rather than at how they can best enable a fighting force to sustain its capability. As stated, I still tend to play this way because it's easier for me to grasp even though I know it's a sub-optimal play style. It's not like one has to be very good at this game to beat it, after all. Meaty Ore fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Aug 17, 2021 |
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Aug 17, 2021 22:53
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BlazetheInferno posted:except the problem is the actual damage that splashes to other targets is tiny. You're sure right about that! I was amazed when I found out how small and bad both the area of effect and the amount of damage are. Cythereal posted:A comment on something you talked about in the video: there's a version of something similar to upkeep in WC3 that I prefer. Rise of Legends has escalating costs for units: your first foot soldier costs 50 minerals, say. Then the second costs 60. Third costs 70. And so on and so forth, with more advanced units having larger price increases. And as units die, the escalation goes back down. I think it not only creates the same economic/military tension that Upkeep does, but also provides a strong incentive to mix up the composition of your army and diversify the units you use. That sounds like an interesting system, but unless I'm misunderstanding something, that would create very different incentives than upkeep does. Meaty Ore posted:For myself, I think one reason I still tend to go for +damage items is that their practical effects are easier for new/inexperienced/not very good(self included) players to get their minds around. "More damage = good" takes less brain power to process than using numerous consumables in a strategic fashion, or trying to remember what other stat-boosting items do. Also carry-over habits from most other RTS games where the thinking is "I need that gold to build units and upgrades; I can't waste it on a measly one-use healing scroll." Another part of the problem, I think, is players conceiving of heroes as main attacking/damage-dealing units rather than support units who can tank a bunch of damage that would otherwise be directed at your army. One tends to look at ways of increasing their raw power, rather than at how they can best enable a fighting force to sustain its capability. As stated, I still tend to play this way because it's easier for me to grasp even though I know it's a sub-optimal play style. It's not like one has to be very good at this game to beat it, after all. I think you're correct about all those points. It's definitely easy for new players in particular to be seduced by the shiny green number next to their attack and think that they've got something powerful. And it's easy to see something like +5 attack over 25 base attack and think you've got a 20% boost in effectiveness, while forgetting that the rest of the army exists and the hero is going to be outdamaged by even 1-2 strong units. I'm hoping that with videos like mine, I can nudge a few new people into boosting their armor number and their intelligence stat number rather than their attack number. Oddly enough for me it was actually playing on the ladder that made me realize claws of attack etc. weren't worth it (even though on ladder they're much more useful than in the campaign). In some of my earliest ladder games I thought I had a crucial battle in the bag, only to suddenly be crushed when the enemy healed every single one of their wounded units by a huge amount with a single scroll of healing. Or got their hero who I had painstakingly surrounded and trapped out by just drinking an invincibility potion and hacking away at me for 7 seconds. That opened my eyes to what a small amount those consumables cost in this game and how much value they can have. And then I realized that they're even more powerful in the campaign where your economy is infinite and your army is often huge. (I would also add that I think it's great that warcraft succeeds where so many games fail by actually making consumables worthwhile) Melth fucked around with this message at 04:01 on Aug 18, 2021 |
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Aug 18, 2021 03:47
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Melth posted:You're sure right about that! I was amazed when I found out how small and bad both the area of effect and the amount of damage are. Lol, I definitely had to restart the last orc mission as a kid because the entire map got mined out and I couldn't afford the force I needed to push the final objective. I don't think I was managing my upkeep which probably didn't help things.
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Aug 18, 2021 04:38
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FoolyCharged posted:Lol, I definitely had to restart the last orc mission as a kid because the entire map got mined out and I couldn't afford the force I needed to push the final objective. I don't think I was managing my upkeep which probably didn't help things. Oof, that final orc mission can be tough since destroying the enemy bases doesn't stop the constant Infernal spawns. Even so, I'll bet that upkeep was indeed the big problem. The mechanic demands some thought and will really hurt the economy of a player who just starts building units willy-nilly.
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Aug 22, 2021 18:17
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Can't find the thread for it, but I'm really glad you're still going through Age of Mythology, that LP is a thing of beauty. Really looking forward to the final Undead mission.
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Aug 25, 2021 13:43
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anilEhilated posted:Can't find the thread for it, but I'm really glad you're still going through Age of Mythology, that LP is a thing of beauty. https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3976637 It's a great mission! Warcraft 3 had some really great survival chapters in general
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Aug 25, 2021 20:53
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The new episode is finished, clearing all human bases on Undead Mission 8, a survival chapter: Undead 8: Under the Burning Sky
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Aug 29, 2021 18:57
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Bloody hell. Never realized mines could damage buildings. Awesome video, as always! e: I wonder if it is possible to do something like this with the final mission. Probably not, given Archimonde. anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Aug 29, 2021 |
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Aug 29, 2021 20:05
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Melth posted:The new episode is finished, clearing all human bases on Undead Mission 8, a survival chapter: These are incredible displays of intelligence and creative thinking even more so than they are of good micro and economics. I remember looking up guides and they would always recommend things like wasting the landmines on defence or suiciding the Felhounds.
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Aug 29, 2021 20:57
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anilEhilated posted:Bloody hell. Never realized mines could damage buildings. Awesome video, as always! I haven't watched the video, but you can absolutely rush the initial undead base with mines and invuln potions. Since it actually builds it's attack waves if you can take out their necropolis and workers first(so they can't rebuild) and then gun down their production you'll just sit out the timer not getting attacked. Speed runs actually call time before the mission ends because of this.
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Aug 30, 2021 03:48
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anilEhilated posted:Bloody hell. Never realized mines could damage buildings. Awesome video, as always! I've never done it, but I did once take out Archimonde. I'm trying to remember from years ago now, but I think that the enemy Crypts on that mission are modified so that they produce the ultra demons. If you could destroy their town hall, acolytes, and crypt that alone should cripple the enemy to the point where it's not even difficult to stonewall their waves indefinitely. The altar would be a nice secondary target. FoolyCharged posted:I haven't watched the video, but you can absolutely rush the initial undead base with mines and invuln potions. Since it actually builds it's attack waves if you can take out their necropolis and workers first(so they can't rebuild) and then gun down their production you'll just sit out the timer not getting attacked. Speed runs actually call time before the mission ends because of this. That's cool! I never knew invuln potions were available on that mission, which would certainly be a great way to win it. My own way was more complicated. I noticed that when the enemy took a new base on that mission, they removed their old base and cheated to set up a new one by instantly moving in their acolytes to the new base and having them build a few things super fast. So my strategy was to set a giant trap in Thrall's base with a terrifying number of Ancient Protectors stationed around his great hall. And some Druids of the Talon too. Then I would kill Thrall's great hall myself, at which point all the acolytes came in to try to build his new base and were immediately killed, leaving Archimonde with nothing but his heroes. I would cyclone all but one of those at a time to focus fire them down. Then I beat him down slowly with masses of ancient protectors and archers. The hilarious thing was that, as a failsafe, they apparently gave Archimonde a single Ankh of Reincarnation item. So he would rise from the dead with a pitiful sliver of health just to get killed again. Not sure what they were going for with that. They could have just given him the bog-standard reincarnation ability that plenty of monsters have.
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Aug 30, 2021 05:28
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Melth posted:I've never done it, but I did once take out Archimonde. Yeah, the guy that beat sc2 on brutal without losing a unit figured that one out. I'd always snipe the building necropolis/workers with hippo archers when I was a kid. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTnsilUI5hw Here was the take on the cheese from agdq a while back. Forwarning, the dude playing has... well he has a laugh. Timestamp 37:28 for the last mission.
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Aug 30, 2021 05:56
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The next mission I'll be tackling is one of my favorites. I've found a lot of ways to approach it and I will actually post two of them. The first one will be here: Orc 3: Cry of the Warsong I'm planning to maintain an update schedule of a video at least every 2 weeks. Speaking of which, I'm open to suggestions about which chapters or scenarios or the like to show.
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Aug 30, 2021 23:51
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Melth posted:The new episode is finished, clearing all human bases on Undead Mission 8, a survival chapter:
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Aug 31, 2021 00:36
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Melth posted:The next mission I'll be tackling is one of my favorites. I've found a lot of ways to approach it and I will actually post two of them.
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Aug 31, 2021 08:06
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Carpator Diei posted:Amazing as always. And some confirmation of my suspicion that it probably wasn't very smart of me to never bother with Mana Burn purely because it seemed to have such an underwhelming damage output.
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Aug 31, 2021 08:59
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Xander77 posted:Ah. I'm assuming you won't imprison Gorm in his own base? Even better! I'll post at least 2 strategies for that one, there are lots of fun ways to tackle it. Edit: just watched that video. I think he made things waaaay more complicated than he needed to. If you want to win with no casualties, all you need to do is run Thrall through the enemy base solo with a few healing items and/or mana potions. He can solo the harpy guards (easily with level 2 chain lightning) and then the mission is over before Grom can even think about provoking the humans. Melth fucked around with this message at 16:10 on Aug 31, 2021 |
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Aug 31, 2021 15:57
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Could you do Night Elf 3? I've always struggled with that one on Hard. I get hung up and take too long trying to break through the Orc base, never having time to finish.
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Aug 31, 2021 21:19
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Meaty Ore posted:Could you do Night Elf 3? I've always struggled with that one on Hard. I get hung up and take too long trying to break through the Orc base, never having time to finish. Sure! I've had a couple of close calls on that mission myself, but I learned a few different ways to approach it.
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Sep 2, 2021 17:52
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Astounding displays of analysis, strategy and skill all around. Melth, I love seeing you eviscerate each scenario and more broadly the game down to its minutiae. This also goes for your AoM videos. I can't imagine the amount of time and effort you've sunk into it, but it shows, and you truly do make a spectacle of it each time.
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Sep 2, 2021 18:58
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Melth posted:Even better! I'll post at least 2 strategies for that one, there are lots of fun ways to tackle it.
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Sep 12, 2021 21:28
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The new episode is out today: Orc 3: Cry of the Warsong The first of two strategies I'll be showing for this interesting mission. This approach is probably the best conventional one, following the basic intent of the mission.
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Sep 12, 2021 23:31
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Yeah, this looks about right. It's not quite as surgical when I use this basic tactic, but the basics of it is nice and simple. Follow Grom on his initial strikes, hit hard enough to obliterate the base so they can't send a counter-attack, rinse and repeat. I don't tend to bother grabbing the expansion, but whatever works - speeding up production certainly isn't a bad thing. Incidentally, I find it interesting that the base labelled "Gilneas Brigade" is actually manned exclusively by Dwarves - with the exception of peasants, they build nothing but Riflemen, Mortar Teams, and their Mountain King.
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Sep 13, 2021 00:12
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Grom really suffered by his change between Warcraft 2 and 3. Guy was much better off as a super-Grunt with a funny voice.
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Sep 13, 2021 13:02
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I tried to do this tactic once, on normal difficulty. It kinda didn't go as well but I blame it all on that it was years ago and I totally didn't stay bad ever since. 
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Sep 13, 2021 13:30
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BlazetheInferno posted:Incidentally, I find it interesting that the base labelled "Gilneas Brigade" is actually manned exclusively by Dwarves - with the exception of peasants, they build nothing but Riflemen, Mortar Teams, and their Mountain King. That is interesting. Seems like a couple of lore contradictions might be going on there at once. Or maybe there are a few later retcons to explain it. And then unexplain it. And then re--explain it. anilEhilated posted:Grom really suffered by his change between Warcraft 2 and 3. Guy was much better off as a super-Grunt with a funny voice. Somehow I never knew that he got his start in warcraft 2. Never played that game.
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Sep 13, 2021 16:18
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Melth posted:Somehow I never knew that he got his start in warcraft 2. Never played that game.
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Sep 13, 2021 16:26
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Channelling Miss Piggy.
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Sep 13, 2021 18:10
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Warcraft orcs were done a huge disservice in general by the retcons and changes from WC2 to WC3, imo. The whole noble savage shtick doesn't really land well at all besides Thrall, especially when most of the really awful stuff was kept in or even added and embellished later on.
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Sep 13, 2021 18:32
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The Shortest Path posted:Warcraft orcs were done a huge disservice in general by the retcons and changes from WC2 to WC3, imo. The whole noble savage shtick doesn't really land well at all besides Thrall, especially when most of the really awful stuff was kept in or even added and embellished later on. I agree with that. It also seemed redundant with the Tauren and several other races having the exact same shtick (often done better).
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Sep 13, 2021 21:14
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Metzen's official reasoning at the time was that he felt that "This race is a race of evil, violent savages" was a racist and colonialist storytelling trope, which is a decision I do respect. I just don't think he executed the change well in the orcs' case. Though I'll never forgive what WoW, and the Warcraft franchise in general, did with my beloved night elves after WC3.
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Sep 13, 2021 21:20
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Melth posted:That is interesting. Seems like a couple of lore contradictions might be going on there at once. Or maybe there are a few later retcons to explain it. And then unexplain it. And then re--explain it. While there's no real explanation for the base's military being exclusively Dwarven units, a short story written some time during or after Cataclysm claims that it was Darius Crowley, in defiance of Genn Greymane, sent the "Gilneas Brigade" to support Jaina Proudmoore. The reason he's so mad at Genn is that when Genn Greymane cut off Gilneas from the rest of Lordaeron by erecting the Greymane Wall, that wall went right through the middle of Crowley's lands. It turned into a rebellion. Melth posted:Somehow I never knew that he got his start in warcraft 2. Never played that game. Grom Hellscream, Deathwing, Teron Gorefiend, Dentarg, and Kargath Bladefist were the five Horde Heroes added in Warcraft 2's expansion, Beyond the Dark Portal. Though the manual and the game and voice acting in general all seem to flipflop over whether his name was Kargath, or Korgath. But yeah, there's a surprising amount of lore in various games that can actually be traced back to Warcraft 2. A whole bunch of different Orc Clans, for one thing. In Tides of Darkness, we have the Blackrock Clan, Stormreaver Clan, Bleeding Hollow Clan, Twilight's Hammer Clan, Burning Blade Clan, Black Tooth Grin Clan, and Dragonmaw Clan, and then the expansion gave us the Warsong Clan, Bonechewer Clan, Thunderlord Clan, Shadowmoon Clan, Shattered Hand Clan, the Laughing Skull, and a debatably canon "Flowerpicker" clan. The reason for that being the Beyond the Dark Portal clan names are *only* used in the campaign, and the Flowerpicker is the BTDP name for the Blue orc player, which never appears in the expansion's campaigns. Each clan outside the Flowerpickers (being a dummied-out programmer joke most likely), and the Burning Blade for not having one, all list the clan's Chieftain in the manual(s). BlazetheInferno fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Sep 13, 2021 |
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Sep 13, 2021 22:43
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I can't believe they didn't bring back Grom's VA from WC2  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb7e0RgqYaI
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Sep 14, 2021 04:52
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Man, that is a weird voice. I have no idea what they were going for.
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Sep 14, 2021 15:24
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Melth posted:Man, that is a weird voice. I have no idea what they were going for. Now imagine that voice just screaming at the top of his lungs. Like, loud enough to rupture a dude's eardrums if he screamed into his ear. And that's how he got his name! At least according to one of the early novels.
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Sep 14, 2021 21:55
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