COVID-19: People on the internet are judging me for going outside. It used to be the reverse.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > COVID-19: People on the internet are judging me for going outside. It used to be the reverse.

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SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

Professor Beetus posted:

Objective Action posted:
Given the mechanism of action for half mask valves it should be on par with the disposables they tested for droplet blocking but may not be sufficient for aerosols.

Once again: this is speculative at best.

# ¿ Sep 13, 2021 23:06

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# ¿ Apr 26, 2024 15:38

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

Professor Beetus posted:

Thanks for the reminder. I meant to include both posts in the OP because despite the correction, I felt like there was a lot of good info in both, and I also thought it was useful to see the exchange.

I guess. I think presenting a back and forth on unfiltered exhalation valves on FFRs vs EHMRs kinda buries the lede, though. Which is that it's kinda a moot point because you really shouldn't be relying on an unfiltered exhaust valve on an FFR for source control either. Like instead of a back and forth on the subject I kinda feel like the important information is that masks with unfiltered exhaust valves shouldn't be used for source control at all. That's the lede. We're only talking about FFR vs EHMR exhaust valves because people keep getting confused by that NIOSH paper on FFRs and are assuming it says something it does not. But even if it did apply to EHMRs...it still wouldn't matter because you shouldn't be relying on unfiltered exhalation on FFRs for source control either.

I mean given that we have good data on the efficacy of N95s/KN95s I kinda think the fixation EHMRs is a little weird. I understand that they make sense in some situations, but it seems like the better general advice for most people is to just get an N95/KN95, learn how to wear it correctly, and then to always do so. I mean MacGyvering a 7500 to have one reversed valve or whatever is fine, but I kinda feel like if you weren't already familiar with the SA covid cinematic universe or whatever (in which we hash this poo poo out every couple days) then if you stumbled into the thread and read the OP you'd come away thinking that doing a roll-your-own solution involving EHMRs was part of the default recommended covid prep routine or whatever.

# ¿ Sep 14, 2021 13:18

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

Professor Beetus posted:

I personally feel that N95s are good enough for me, but not everyone is living in the same place with the same current covid situation. But I'm happy to look back over the OP and make it clear what current guidance is, because it is a little messy right now just due to the way I sourced it with the thread's participation.

I personally feel the level of discourse in here is decent enough for that kind of conversation, but you're probably right about someone lurking the OP and I'll look into a better way to present that. I am definitely hoping to have enough energy to maintain a frequently updated OP simply due to the nature of an ongoing pandemic.

I mean the last page has been mostly people arguing about whether or not you should care about source control (!), asking questions about what kind of protection EHMRs provide, and people reiterating the information about the 3M 6000 series with a 604 exhalation filter, and so on. Which seems to be what happens every time any of those subjects comes up. So it seems like exactly the sort of thing that would make sense to be in the OP. And...and this is a question...does the thread have a no misinformation rule? Like if someone came in and started extolling the virtues of Ivermectin would the be told to cut it out? If so, it might make sense to actually assert a position on e.g. masking.

Vasukhani posted:

Even with the valve uncovered they offer better protection to others than surgical masks

https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2021-107/default.html

The main push against them is preventing medical workers from having them, and scaring people too much.

That paper does not offer any guidance on EHMRs.

# ¿ Sep 14, 2021 23:07

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

Vasukhani posted:

True, but I guess this is just lay speculation, why would a better, sturdier mask preform worse?

This is literally discussed in the OP.

Potato Salad posted:

Hold up, is this a problem with the CDC's readily-available literature on NIOSH, or something else?

I'm not sure what you're asking here, but the general problem is:

N95s/KN95s are good at source control
Surgical masks are not good at source control
There's a single paper that suggests that an unfiltered exhalation valve on an FFR is about as good for source control as a surgical mask
The paper explicitly does not include EHMRs in their conclusions

So there's no data suggesting unfiltered exhalation on EHMRs is equivalent to FFRs. But even if there was, then you still wouldn't want to rely on it for source control. Despite this, people keep extolling the virtues of EHMRs, and offer that NIOSH paper as a defence of using one despite it having an unfiltered exhalation valve (unless you're using a 3M 6000 series with a 604 filter, or one of the small number of similar setups).

So it's not that NIOSH is spreading misinformation, it's just that information from NIOSH is frequently (I think it's safe to say consistently) in a misleading way.

# ¿ Sep 14, 2021 23:21

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

Platystemon posted:

I don�t have any personal doubt that it would easily surpass unfitted surgical masks at stopping virus‐containing respiratory viruses, but, well, we don�t have any actual data saying it does.

Yeah. It's worth pointing out that we don't have solid data on any modification to EHMRs with exhalation valves used for covid source control. The roll-your-own thing with blocking the exhalation valve and reversing one of the inhalation valves and using a filter on it is plausible, but the wildcard is that exhalation is less efficient that way, resulting in more condensation in the mask and filters. The roll-your-own thing with putting a mask over an otherwise unfiltered exhalation valve makes intuitive sense...but as far as I know the closest thing to data we have on this is actually from that NIOSH paper on FFRs, where they report poor results from putting a mask over a FFR exhaust valve. And the NIOSH FFR paper reports great variability between different kinds of FFR exhaust valves, and there's even more variability in EHMR exhalation valves. And the methodology of NIOSH FFR paper only measures efficacy in a lab setting--it doesn't address issues like the direction the exhalation valve points in...which again is something that there's great variability in with EHMRs.

Any use of EHMRs with exhaust valves for covid source control is based on speculation.

# ¿ Sep 15, 2021 00:08

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

tagesschau posted:

I'm perfectly happy to to wear an N95 in a situation where masks are required for everyone. However, if I'm in a store where nobody's required to be masked, and maybe 5-10% of people actually are, and I choose to switch to an EHMR with better filters, the fact that I'm wearing a mask with an unfiltered exhalation valve is really not the problem in that scenario.

That's your prerogative, but I think source control is good, even when it's protecting people I disagree with.

# ¿ Sep 16, 2021 23:34

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

Phigs posted:

Did you N95s during flu season before COVID? Cause the breath of a vaccinated person who wears a respirator whenever they go outside their home has to be less of a risk to other people than the average person during flu season. Probably even outside of flu season. A half-mask respirator is source control through not becoming a source. They're cheaper, more comfortable (may vary person to person), better for the environment (probably), and provide more protection for the wearer. In the scenario you quoted I'd say the higher protection is more relevant than 1 person having their breath filtered. In that kind of environment it's like pissing in the ocean; might as well maximally protect yourself cause you aren't affecting the environment. That N95s filter your breath more is a benefit, but acting like that makes it strictly superior and implying that the half-mask is an immoral choice is wrong IMO.

Covid source control is good. You're tying yourself in knots trying to come up with rationales for not practicing source control. Don't do this. Practice source control in the middle of a pandemic, even if you don't like the people you're protecting, because the virus doesn't care.

Like I could go through point by point if you want: covid isn't the flu; the idea that EHMRs provide better personal protection against covid than N95s is speculation (if you have any reliable data to support that conclusion by all means post it, but I believe it's an open question under active investigation at the moment); "source control through not being a source" is sophistry; arguing that protecting one person more is better than source control is a rationalisation that has it exactly backwards as far as controlling disease is concerned; and I'm not arguing that using an EHMR is an immoral choice--I'm arguing that practicing source control is good regardless of who you're protecting or how much you think they have it coming, or how much you think it doesn't really matter, or anything else.

But seriously: practice source control. Don't try to come up with elaborate reasons why it's okay for you to not practice source control.

# ¿ Sep 17, 2021 00:16

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

tagesschau posted:

Yeah, and letting my car idle for any longer than strictly necessary makes me responsible for global warming.

If the relevant authorities utterly refuse to implement meaningful public-health measures, it's more important to look out for my own health. And for the record, I wasn't passing judgment on the people I was briefly sharing Walmart with.

I'm not saying you're individually responsible for the entire pandemic if you don't practice source control, I'm just saying you should practice source control because it's a pandemic. Delta's R0 doesn't care what your rationale for not practicing source control is.

# ¿ Sep 17, 2021 01:15

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

Platystemon posted:

Relying on source control is awful as a matter of public health policy, particularly as the virus is increasingly prevalent in public spaces and new variants have greater R₀.

This is true, and doesn't change the fact that practicing covid source control is good.

# ¿ Sep 17, 2021 01:27

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

jetz0r posted:

Hey, could you link the studies for your claims that elastomeric half face respirators are worse protection than disposable N95 masks? Or the ones that they're worse at source control than vented N95s? I would be interested in seeing what your statements are based on.

These are not claims that I've made.

# ¿ Sep 17, 2021 02:01

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

Phigs posted:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/29/cambridge-hospitals-mask-upgrade-appears-to-eliminate-covid-19-risk-to-staff

Unless there's some idiosyncratic usage I'm not familiar with, FFP3s aren't like EHMRs. And not in some narrow pedantic sense, in the sense that they're more like the European equivalent to an N99--the spec for the both the N99 and FFP3 is for 99% or better of >= 0.3 µm particulate matter, the more familiar N95 is 95%). The story is that they went from using FRSMs, which are surgical masks, to using FFP3s, which are like N99s, and the latter were better protection against covid. This isn't surprising, but if it has anything to do with EHMRs I'm missing something.

# ¿ Sep 24, 2021 09:14

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# ¿ Apr 26, 2024 15:38

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

Epic High Five posted:

Unless you are a race horse, alas it seems like the non-racing prediction categories all go to other charismatic megafauna...perhaps your PR person could it touch with my own?

Just had to bring race into it.

# ¿ Dec 16, 2021 04:37

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > COVID-19: People on the internet are judging me for going outside. It used to be the reverse.