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Hello and welcome to this amazing thread about The Legend of Zelda, the coolest game ever made! I kind of want a place to converse about visual storytelling and subtext in these things. These games are full of recurring symbols and archetypes and references to fantasy literature, interconnected texts that are rich down to all the jokes. You may also Post Silly. Here are some questions to start discussion: How does the effect of real life aging change the story of Ocarina of Time? How did the Gorons create a Balrog? In the same game, why is the water temple a big empty mansion? In all the games, what are the implied functions of the big empty temples? Why, in the Wind Waker, do harmless pigs replace harmless chickens? Why, in Twilight Princess, does the wind tribe transform into harmless chickens? Is Hyrule good? What are Tingle's crimes? How does music heal the world? And more! Posting is fun have fun posting.
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Dec 11, 2021 05:51
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FunkyAl posted:Here are some questions to start discussion: quote:How did the Gorons create a Balrog? quote:In the same game, why is the water temple a big empty mansion? quote:In all the games, what are the implied functions of the big empty temples? quote:Why, in the Wind Waker, do harmless pigs replace harmless chickens? quote:Why, in Twilight Princess, does the wind tribe transform into harmless chickens? quote:Is Hyrule good? quote:What are Tingle's crimes? quote:How does music heal the world? Hope that helps op Asterite34 fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Dec 11, 2021 |
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Dec 11, 2021 16:39
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FunkyAl posted:
I loving wish I could go back to being 10 years old again. Just running around having a good time. Adult responsibility sucks
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Dec 11, 2021 16:45
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The entire Zelda series has been uneeded since Gannons I coveted that wind speech, and the fact that keep making them is a personal insult
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Dec 11, 2021 17:28
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Wind Waker is super duper fun. 10/10 I hope they make a sequel.
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Dec 11, 2021 20:49
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Asterite34 posted:
Actually a Fused Shadow, which is an important distinction! The fused shadows are ancient, wicked, goddess insulting technology, based on Chinese Ritual Bronzework, so it's significant that you fight balrog after progressing through a fairly high-tech mine. quote:Former palace of Queen Zora that was left derelict upon her death And I don't think this is actually the case in the games or even as subtext, but I like the idea that it represents a barren-ness after Link fails to marry Ruto. Barudak posted:The entire Zelda series has been uneeded since Gannons I coveted that wind speech, and the fact that keep making them is a personal insult But to this point, I think TP is showing the rotten, pre-flood version of the world. Metaphorically at least. It's pretty droughty.
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Dec 11, 2021 20:53
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I'd like to see Zunari's homeland.FunkyAl posted:Why, in the Wind Waker, do harmless pigs replace harmless chickens? Because they were already going to make harmless chicken functionality into its own item, so they decided to put in digging and make the livestock do that.
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Dec 11, 2021 22:19
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SlothfulCobra posted:I'd like to see Zunari's homeland. You do go to somewhere called an Isle of Frost in Phantom Hourglass, which has penguin guys with antlers who wear the same kind of coat.
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Dec 12, 2021 02:08
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FunkyAl posted:
Each LOZ game is very empty. An obvious one is the Shadow Temple in OOT is accessed immediately via Kakariko Village, which it absolutely dwarfs. And it is of course not being used by the people of Kakariko Village. It was clearly not built by them - the people of Kakariko Village, one of the two settlements of any size in OOT, are living in a an area that was probably the bathrooms or concession stands for construction workers on the Shadow Temple. And yes yes "oh they're just not representing all the people literally" I mean obviously OOT has like 40 people it's not even a viable population. Even with that the Shadow Temple is enormous and a public works project well, well outside anything Hyrule could have pulled off, and they forgot about it. So the function of temples at the game-present is "ruins of a much larger civilization." As for the past I mean they were at least at some point worship centers and complexes or else they'd called something else. Some of these temples seem designed around worship of a divine being that is physically there (see: Fire Temple), which implies that since they're largely forgotten that these divinities find all the comforts they desire to be satisfied by the construction and self-maintenance of the temple. Put another way it seems that they were built by a much larger, long-forgotten civilization (could be several different ones) that built them to successfully appease powerful immortals. Temple as "house of the god" rendered very literally. IDK I don't think there's a lot of textual support but I think its cool and not contradictory so I guess its what I've got.
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Dec 12, 2021 20:14
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I have only every played one Zelda, the first Zelda, on a shining golden cartridge.
josh04 fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Dec 12, 2021 |
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Dec 12, 2021 20:28
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I've only every played Majora's Mask and that was on my friend's N64. I never beat it and kid me was loving furious at it. I made a really embarrassing scene, and the only thing I really remember otherwise is the evil moon and the scarecrow you turn the days back with. The art design in that game is good af though. Nowadays my friend has Smash Bros on Switch and mains Link. He usually beats me. I'm not bitter.
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Dec 12, 2021 20:47
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The purpose of the fire temple in oot was a mosque until Nintendo changed the music
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Dec 12, 2021 22:46
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Link to the Past for SNES is still the best game in the series, fight me.
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Dec 13, 2021 09:41
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It does boggle the mind how loving old Hyrule is, that it keeps going through multiple cycles of grand civilization with super-advanced magitech and cyclopean megastructures that are all reduced to dusty enigmatic ruins of unknown purpose in-game. And this happens no matter where in the timeline you are. Like BotW is set like ten thousand years after anything else in the timeline and even though there is evidence that at SOME point they advanced to the point of having mechas and ipads and stuff, everything's been reset back to a medieval tech dark age. It's even weirder with Skyward Sword, in theory the first game in the timeline. Even before the founding of Hyrule, in some lost antediluvian age when people lived in the sky, there are broken down sentient robots in even more ancient ruins built by... who the gently caress even knows? Even at the dawn of history lost to future ages, there are Goron archeologists digging around through the mysteries of an even FURTHER past full of unknown advanced civilizations, who are themselves predated by some mythic time when Gods and Demons walked the earth like men.
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Dec 13, 2021 16:05
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Asterite34 posted:It's even weirder with Skyward Sword, in theory the first game in the timeline. Even before the founding of Hyrule, in some lost antediluvian age when people lived in the sky, there are broken down sentient robots in even more ancient ruins built by... who the gently caress even knows? The yellow dragon built the robots and the robots built those mines and ships and stuff
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Dec 13, 2021 16:16
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Asterite34 posted:It does boggle the mind how loving old Hyrule is, that it keeps going through multiple cycles of grand civilization with super-advanced magitech and cyclopean megastructures that are all reduced to dusty enigmatic ruins of unknown purpose in-game. And this happens no matter where in the timeline you are. Also complicated by the idea that the Sheikah possess a time machine. Lemniscate Blue posted:Link to the Past for SNES is still the best game in the series, fight me. Better than Minish Cap?
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Dec 13, 2021 23:47
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FunkyAl posted:Better than Minish Cap? Yes, but Minish Cap is dang good. Neither are as good as Wind Waker though.
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Dec 14, 2021 00:28
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My own theory regarding Zelda is that the geography would make a little more sense if you take the time passing in-game as not real-time and the distances scaled down by the real time factor. So instead of Castle Town being like 500 meters away from Kokiri Forest, and a "day" being like five minutes, the real distance is that that journey takes about a day. Still world's smallest kingdom though. If you do the same for BotW then the map gets almost country sized. Also here's a musical reference the zelda brain lords over at youtube haven't figured out yet. The piano arpeggios at the start of this memory https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_x074Yt63Aw are the same the ones as in the intro to Zelda 2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2zxGm4cUB4 I recall it might be the same number too but can't be arsed to count them again
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Dec 14, 2021 00:28
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The zelda timeline kind of sucks other than forming vague mythical references to the to the other games and I'm glad that Nintendo thinks so too because they put BotW so far into the future that any timeline reference is meaningless
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Dec 14, 2021 15:45
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I think only 7.5 Zelda games actually directly reference other games in the series as having happened as events as opposed to just indirect references. 4 of those aren't actually made by Nintendo. Oracle of Ages and Oracle of Seasons were developed by Capcom and have a whole gimmick of connecting with eachother as direct sequels. The Hyrule Warriors games are made by the Dynasty Warriors people as kind of cross-temporal/dimensional crossovers with characters being pulled from other times and places to all fight in the same place, so the characters are explicitly from other games. Then there's Wind Waker, which is fairly explicit in acknowledging Ocarina of Time somehow happening before it, and then Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks are both pretty explicitly sequels to Wind Waker as they searched for a new land and then found a big continent to make trains on (at least, I think that's the implication?). Majora's Mask is kind of implied to be taking the same Link from Ocarina of Time to another dimension, but I don't think anything ingame actually says it, so it only sorta counts. Presumably when Breath of the Wild 2 comes out, it'll reference BOTW1. Lots of Zelda games imply ancient societies before their Hyrule came along, sometimes fantastically advanced, but there's no actual connections there to other Zelda games. Maybe they could try adding more implication someday by doing a game in a high-tech setting, which could be interesting, but really all of the games are meant to stand on their own. And that's in contrast to Metroid, which is the big Nintendo series that does have a close connection between its games happening in a linear story and Metroid 2 on the Gameboy has a pivotal place in the overarching plot.
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Dec 14, 2021 19:08
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The Link in Link's Awakening is the same as in A Link to the Past, the manual or something says he got bored after saving Hyrule and decided to sail away to other lands. Also I think the Link in Zelda 2 is the same Link as in Zelda 1? I never really played those games.
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Dec 15, 2021 09:36
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they should give link a gun
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Dec 15, 2021 10:02
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If Link joined a street gang and used a chain as his weapon they would have to call him Chain-Link.
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Dec 15, 2021 15:42
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Lazy Fair posted:The Link in Link's Awakening is the same as in A Link to the Past, the manual or something says he got bored after saving Hyrule and decided to sail away to other lands. That's basically the same sorta-related kinda-sequel, but not in any way that matters that Majora's Mask was to Ocarina of time. For similar reasons too, since they both were reusing the engine, assets, and mechanics from their predecessors.
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Dec 15, 2021 17:29
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1920s gangster link with speakeasy dungeons. Alternately, Huckleberry Finn Link. You could bring back Lineback!
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Dec 15, 2021 19:38
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Zelda 2 is a great Zelda game in dire need of an expanded remake with a more developed sword-and-shieldplay 2D fight system. Zelda 3 is the best. Breath of the Wild was an amazing idea that needs refinement which hopefully 2 gives it. Skyward Sword is apocryphal and heretical. Zelda's origins is in Christianity which means that in simplest truth the Three Goddesses are the Trinity, and they all did a Jesus and incarnated into mortal forms, their divinity given up to become the Triforce. However it got out of control and now they can't stop reincarnating, drawn together forever in cycle of semi-human urges and violence driven by their divine magnetism, the constant reunity with the Triforce splintering time and remaking existence in one of their wills with its wishing. They sweep up other mortal souls in their endless current, dragging them into reincarnation too.
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Dec 15, 2021 22:57
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I like Zelda, they're fun games and some of my earliest gaming memories 
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Dec 16, 2021 00:26
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Lazy Fair posted:The Link in Link's Awakening is the same as in A Link to the Past, the manual or something says he got bored after saving Hyrule and decided to sail away to other lands. Its pretty highly implied that oracle of ages / seasons link is the same one as well, as if you link the two together and do the true ending the final screenshot is link leaving on his doomed LA raft
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Dec 16, 2021 04:28
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OoT also depicts the imprisoning war of LttPs intro TP has OOTs hero in it too
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Dec 16, 2021 04:56
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I'm pretty sure Midna is a skull kid.
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Dec 16, 2021 07:58
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SlothfulCobra posted:That's basically the same sorta-related kinda-sequel, but not in any way that matters that Majora's Mask was to Ocarina of time. It's a vague connection, but also I think Link's Awakening is enhanced by it being a sequel. A big theme in LA is obviously dreams, and the island is supposed to be dream-like in it's strange familiarity which only works if you've played other zelda and nintendo games, and the character is a Link from a previous Zelda game.
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Dec 16, 2021 23:29
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Link Between Worlds is also a (far future) direct sequel to LttP and it rules, fairly easy but a fun mechanic
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Dec 18, 2021 19:18
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How do people feel about the decidedly sci-fi plot point from Tears of the Kingdom's intro cutscene that the royal family line of Hyrule (and by extension, Zelda and probably most Hylians in the same way most people in Europe can somehow trace their ancestry back to Charlemagne) are descended from the intermarriage of humans and "divine" goat-men from outer space who showed up thousands of years ago with their advanced technology to harvest minerals, like some Ancient Aliens Annunaki deal?
Asterite34 fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Jun 4, 2023 |
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Jun 4, 2023 16:45
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Legend of Zelda has really been explicitly hammering away for a while now at the idea of an ancient advanced civilization who littered the land that would become Hyrule with impossibly advanced magical technology. Rauru is at best a lateral move from the previous lone survivor from the ancient, inscrutable, impossibly advanced age: The fact that the Zelda games keep having these diversions into sci-fi is why some people keep saying that Nintendo should just pull the trigger on like a cyberpunk Zelda game, but it's only ever really a motif or an aesthetic in the background. And it seems like every time they introduce an ancient more advanced civilization, it's totally unrelated to the previous ones, which makes all the attempts to tell the story of the start of the Ganon cycle annoying because they keep contradicting (possibly intentionally out of outright spite towards the idea of story and continuity). And the ancient tech aesthetic isn't bad, but the way it keeps taking focus off the characters who are there in the present in favor of the long passed doesn't seem to do many favors for the story. When the story spends its time worldbuilding elements that you know that the later franchise will just entirely ignore, it just feels like a waste of time.
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Jun 4, 2023 18:44
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Asterite34 posted:How do people feel about the decidedly sci-fi plot point from Tears of the Kingdom's intro cutscene that the royal family line of Hyrule (and by extension, Zelda and probably most Hylians in the same way most people in Europe can somehow trace their ancestry back to Charlemagne) are descended from the intermarriage of humans and "divine" goat-men from outer space who showed up thousands of years ago with their advanced technology to harvest minerals, like some Ancient Aliens Annunaki deal? I'm excited for it because it feels like they've been building up this idea since at least the Minish Cap.
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Jun 4, 2023 18:47
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SlothfulCobra posted:Legend of Zelda has really been explicitly hammering away for a while now at the idea of an ancient advanced civilization who littered the land that would become Hyrule with impossibly advanced magical technology. Rauru is at best a lateral move from the previous lone survivor from the ancient, inscrutable, impossibly advanced age: Clearly the Oocca are some horrible Zonai pet (equivalent to a pug or something) that went feral in the floating ruins of their former masters' civilization, deluded into thinking they'd built it in the murky past despite not having hands. Either that or the Skyloft equivalent of rural sheep farmers got a bit too intimate with their Loftwings and these wretched things are the result millennia later.
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Jun 4, 2023 20:06
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While I don't think Nintendo ever envisaged a timeline for most of the series' history, it is worth noting that until Twilight Princess the mainline games were a series of duologies. Zelda 2 is very clearly a direct sequel to Zelda. Link's Awakening is clearly a sequel to ALTTP. Majora's Mask is clearly a sequel to OOT. It's only with TP where the trend breaks. And granted, it's worth noting that WW is the first one to really try and bring all of the games together, with Ganondorf clearly being aware of his doomed fate to keep playing out the same song and dance due to fate.
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Jun 5, 2023 07:11
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I haven't played Tears of the Kingdom yet, but I like the idea that the Legend of Zelda is literally a legend that gets passed around via cultural diffusion. A lot of the games have the same basic plot with characters that fulfill identical roles (Ganon[dorf] and Vaati are basically interchangeable), but each fictional culture tells the story in a way that conforms more to their way of seeing the world. The original NES game is the basic skeleton of the story; ALttP expands on it; OoT tells it slightly differently, etc. Some games, like Zelda 2, Link's Awakening, Majora's Mask, are just stories about the further adventures of Link. Of course, the games themselves explicitly contradict this idea at some points (notably the stained glass murals in Wind Waker depicting the sages from Ocarina of Time, and probably other points as well), so I might be full of poo poo. Well, that's my Zelda timeline theory. Also, Wind Waker is best Zelda. That's not even nostalgia, as I never had a Gamecube, and didn't play Wind Waker until well after the Wii came around.
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Jun 10, 2023 00:05
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It's not really sci fi until the author injects their sexual fetishes as fundamental aspects of society
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Jun 28, 2023 14:29
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ikanreed posted:It's not really sci fi until the author injects their sexual fetishes as fundamental aspects of society 
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Jul 2, 2023 05:11
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