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I like LOU1 and parts of 2. I don't like to play them but the story stuff is good, mostly.
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Jan 13, 2023 15:40
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Oh man, some of the level designs in the second one really impressed me. The Ellie sequence with the overgrown housing conurbation with three or four multi level, fully explorable houses, pretty soon after you get the bow and arrow? loving hell I had a wild experience navigating that.
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Jan 13, 2023 16:03
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roomtone posted:The majority of this was fuelled by gamergate type people, or whatever they're called nowadays. There's always going to be a portion of the audience which is mega vocal about things like that, but I think the HBO audience would mostly be grown up enough to handle a meaningful character death. Fwiw I really don’t like TLOU2’s story for reasons that have nothing to do with the Joel stuff. Druckmann has gone so far as to say that a lot of TLOU2 is inspired by the Israel/Palestine conflict, and I think the way that Abby’s guardianship of a trans child is used to hand wave away a fuckton of violence against what the game presents as tribal people is pretty cynical. Even though Abby eventually rejects the wolves, iirc she never even is forced to face the conflict with her superior officer (can’t remember his name) because the trans kid’s sibling kind of deus ex machinas her out of the encounter. For someone who is first introduced bragging about how many scars she can kill, she gets some pretty massive free passes imo. Like the game bends over backwards to make sure you know how backwards the scars are, but also doesn’t once acknowledge that the wolves have surrounded their free city with landmines, and it doesn’t seem particularly interested in exploring that contradiction. Abby also never has to rectify the fact that her father was going to murder a girl off of some wild speculation and perhaps his death was a bit more justified than she would like to admit, but I don’t expect someone to be reasonable about that…. Just another example of her being a shallow character imo. For context, I called the TLOU my favorite game for a long time and was super excited about the second. I can still recognize the second as a great game from many aspects. a new study bible! fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Jan 13, 2023 |
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Jan 13, 2023 16:32
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But maybe if they adapt the second they can actually fix some of those issues so IDC. I probably won’t watch the show unless it gets crazy good press.
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Jan 13, 2023 16:33
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I think that is kind of expored on Abby’s side, that while the Scars aren’t good the Wolves are often just as bad, from killing their leader at a peace treaty to torturing prisoners, leading to their leader sending them all on a suicide charge on the scars at the end.
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Jan 13, 2023 17:21
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Yeah I’m not sure how you could play that game and leave with the impression that the wolves are presented as the “right” ones
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Jan 13, 2023 17:33
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Jan 13, 2023 17:37
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Filming a zombie show during a pandemic in the province with the worst pandemic response still makes me chuckle.
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Jan 13, 2023 17:52
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the end of TLOU2 is extremely ambiguous. What does ellie do next? What impact did these events have on her? Who does she blame for the events of the last year? It's a much less conclusive story than 1 if anything, while 1 resolves its themes well enough 2 leaves them open ended with the true thesis statement up for interpretation. Which is I think why people saying "I get what they are going for" is such a joke because unlike the first game there is no Message, and people looking for one landing on "revenge is bad" is some ninth grade english class poo poo. As long as Part 2 is, it feels like a middle chapter in almost every way. Costco Meatballs fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Jan 13, 2023 |
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Jan 13, 2023 20:03
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Open Source Idiom posted:Oh man, some of the level designs in the second one really impressed me. The Ellie sequence with the overgrown housing conurbation with three or four multi level, fully explorable houses, pretty soon after you get the bow and arrow? loving hell I had a wild experience navigating that. Yes. If nothing else TLOU2 is one of the best games ever for that dynamic interplay of combat and environment. The apartment block with the holes in the walls where you can jump between buildings. That suburban area with the gas station and low rise buildings. The bit you mention. The entire trip through the sky. Incredible stuff
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Jan 13, 2023 20:05
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bobjr posted:The only thing I really don’t like about 2 is making the Fireflies seem like they had a shot at a cure, instead of 1 where it feels like they were taking a blind shot in the dark and hoping it worked out. I took this as revisional historicism on their part. Of COURSE big bad joel came and took their only shot at repairing the world. Even if it was a 1% shot the difference between 1 and 0 is infinite.
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Jan 13, 2023 20:08
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Costco Meatballs posted:I took this as revisional historicism on their part. Of COURSE big bad joel came and took their only shot at repairing the world. Even if it was a 1% shot the difference between 1 and 0 is infinite. I think the important part is that Joel doesn't care if Ellie holds the key to repairing the world. His response to the fireflies saying that Ellie will die isn't "I don't think this will work" or "this is highly unethical", his response is "get another". bobjr posted:I think that is kind of expored on Abby’s side, that while the Scars aren’t good the Wolves are often just as bad, from killing their leader at a peace treaty to torturing prisoners, leading to their leader sending them all on a suicide charge on the scars at the end. One of the journals you can find reveals that the wolves killed a young girl for vandalizing their banners. The wolves are not portrayed as good or even justified in their actions.
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Jan 13, 2023 20:45
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Costco Meatballs posted:the end of TLOU2 is extremely ambiguous. What does ellie do next? What impact did these events have on her? Who does she blame for the events of the last year? It's a much less conclusive story than 1 if anything, while 1 resolves its themes well enough 2 leaves them open ended with the true thesis statement up for interpretation. I hope we find out what happens next in the multiplayer shooter.
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Jan 13, 2023 20:47
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The blind shot thing takes all the weight out of the final choices and boils down to an audio clip that you can find in the final shootout… kind of feels like a late addition to make the player feel less bad about shooting the place up, as if the game needed that. I always assume it was an addition by the other co-director. Is it in the remake? I didn’t find it when I played through on the PS5. Edit: I believe the Israel/Palestine angle gets overblown. Druckmann said the initials seeds of an idea that lead to the game came from his own experience as an Israeli born kid learning that the 2D view he’d been given of the conflict was wrong and he wanted to put that kind of awareness of perspective in a game. It’s not an actual allegory for the real world conflict. Bugblatter fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Jan 13, 2023 |
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Jan 13, 2023 23:32
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Bugblatter posted:The blind shot thing takes all the weight out of the final choices and boils down to an audio clip that you can find in the final shootout… kind of feels like a late addition to make the player feel less bad about shooting the place up, as if the game needed that. Like that other guy said frankly it doesn't matter, the important thing is Joel's choice versus ANY chance of a cure. But it absolutely was a blind shot. Even without that note, it was clear. This was one doctor cutting into a brain to see if he could find anything. They had no idea what they were even going to find in Ellie, just that she was immune and they needed to get into her skull to see if she was worth anything agreed on the i/p conflict being an influence not an allegory for sure, and I think the game delivered exactly on what you're saying - it presented a conflict that had no right side, or 2 right sides, or at least people on both sides that deserved to live and were doing their best.
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Jan 14, 2023 00:06
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That is by no means "clear," as evidenced by the fact that people are still arguing about it. I always regret getting into this argument, but come on. If there's no (or functionally no) shot at a cure, there's no dilemma. Also the audio log that people point to as evidence it's a long shot doesn't say or imply that.
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Jan 14, 2023 00:20
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The people who disliked the second game I honestly don’t believe actually liked the first one
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Jan 14, 2023 00:55
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Danger posted:The people who disliked the second game I honestly don’t believe actually liked the first one The first one has some really simplistic levels to get into it so I believe people liked it if they didn't like the second, I just think they were into either joel or the simple father/daughter bonding story - which are both huge parts of the appeal of the first game, but they ignore the complexity of Joel being a very hosed up man who does bad things not just at the end but throughout the game and heavily implied he was basically a wandering murderer for years before he met Tess. Tommy too, but he worked on himself and became civilised. Joel just sort of falls into that in part 2 and becomes civilised himself, but his horrible life and decisions come back to get him. The more complex issue of people becoming awful in the absence of order is something that percolates in the background of TLOU1, and it can be sort of handwaved for most of it if you are just there for the relationship road trip story. People are saying it but I really don't see how it's even a departure from TLOU1 in terms of following the characters actions and consequences, it all fits in perfectly. Joel saved Ellie because he loves her, but that action being loving doesn't just make it good. He killed a bunch of people, left a lot of loose ends, because he just wanted to be a dad again, and in doing so he kind of cursed his relationship with Ellie. He doesn't seem to ever fully take that on, even in their reconcilliation, he just wants things to be right with her. And then, golf club. loving Ellie, who was just starting to consider forgiving the guy because he needs it so much, and sending her on a complete spiral which last throughout the entire game until the ending when she accesses an actual nice feeling about Joel and realises she doesn't need to fully jump into the abyss. As far as the israel/palestine thing goes - I think people jump on this again as a rationale for why they don't like the game, because in the actual game there is really no comparison. I think it's an internet take, one of those things where people apply real life to fictional stories directly when the application is actually really vague and doesn't fit. I'm not saying it isn't there, Druckmann said himself it was an idea he had in mind while writing the wolves v scars, but it is something you can absolutely ignore and just take it as fiction unless you are determined to find problematic elements, which is what I do in that case.
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Jan 14, 2023 01:56
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It’s always a good sign when your response to sincere criticism of a media property you had no hand in making is “actually you don’t believe that and you’re lying” or “actually you just want to complain about something.” I’m sure this will be a wonderful thread.
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Jan 14, 2023 02:14
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There were a lot of measured and detailed responses to the point you were trying to make actually
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Jan 14, 2023 02:23
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To drag this out of the “are the games good?” discussion and linking back to the show, I don’t think they need to roll straight from end credits in season one into Joel getting his skull smashed in at the end of S02E01. For one thing, since the game likes to explore the whole “people are the real monsters” theme, there will be a lot of space to explore what life is like with Tommy’s community and the rest of the world, since they aren’t fascist like FEDRA, Zealots like the Fireflies, or crazy like the hunters. There is tension space there to explore. A whole season made out of Ellie growing older and realizing that Joel had lied to her about SLC and what that means to her with the backdrop of growing and protecting the Wyoming settlement could be really great. When Abby and the others first show up in the game, they originally planned to infiltrate so maybe that could happen. Would the emotional space of a friendship between Abby and Ellie work as a way to raise stakes or just be cheap? You don’t hire one of the most marketable men in Hollywood not named Johnson or Hart and kill him off after 10 hours just because your source material says so. Does Joel have to die? Maybe. There’s no reason it has to happen exactly the way it happened in the game. I’m not the boss of the thread but Christ is chewing years old soup about the games is tiresome when it’s not at LEAST tied to the upcoming show.
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Jan 14, 2023 02:35
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a new study bible! posted:It’s always a good sign when your response to sincere criticism of a media property you had no hand in making is “actually you don’t believe that and you’re lying” or “actually you just want to complain about something.” I know I'm doing that a bit, I've tried to throw a bone to the idea that TLOU2 is not good here and there, but basically I don't believe that so it'll never be more than a bone. If you don't like the game, that's fine. I just think there's so much weird negativity surrounding that game that I feel like it's a good thing to introduce the idea that the game actually rules, and I do believe that, so I've got a lot more to say about it. plus the first episode isn't out yet, we'll have a whole new series of things to applaud and boo in a few days.
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Jan 14, 2023 02:39
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Arist posted:That is by no means "clear," as evidenced by the fact that people are still arguing about it. That doesn't matter! what matters is they took the choice from her. For joel there is no dilemma. How could there possibly be a cure? Created, manufactured or distributed? These not magic bullets that appear by cutting into someone's brain. Sure, they would potentially learn more about the fungus, but a cure? Almost impossible. But again, that does not matter to the end of the game because Joel would have done it even if she was a guaranteed cure.
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Jan 14, 2023 05:19
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The dilemma isn't for Joel, it's for the audience, dude. Saying it's just impossible is the same as saying there is a correct way for you to feel about the ending. Furthermore, the creation and distribution of a cure is outside the scope of the story. It legitimately Does Not Matter because nothing about that process is ever explored in any way. The only capital-I Impossible part of there being a cure is the disease it is a response to. What I'm saying here is, it's really telling that this is the part where people just refuse to suspend their disbelief in the game about zombies happening because of brain mushrooms. You might as well ask how they managed to siphon usable gas twenty years after the apocalypse. Arist fucked around with this message at 05:38 on Jan 14, 2023 |
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Jan 14, 2023 05:36
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Fellatio del Toro posted:can you say if they make good use of Santaolalla's music? it was such a big part of the games for me, but I almost injured myself eyerolling at the Take On Me slow cover in the trailer I can't say only because the episodes weren't 100% finished, so I don't know if the score was largely temp music or not. But it was basically the game's score (or a slight variation of it). It's funny seeing the thread turn into more debating over TLOU2. I'm just wondering how people unaware of the game are gonna handle the season 1 finale.
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Jan 14, 2023 05:52
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Semi-related to this argument, but the main thing I've heard from previews of the show (from probably episode 1 or 2) is that Joel seems like he'll be far more hostile to the Fireflies at the start (as opposed to the game, where they're more of an annoyance) because he has his own reasons for wanting to go west, to find Tommy who he believes the Fireflies "took" from him
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Jan 14, 2023 05:55
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justlikedunkirk posted:I can't say only because the episodes weren't 100% finished, so I don't know if the score was largely temp music or not. that's nice. i was hoping they would use some of the game score.
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Jan 14, 2023 06:02
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The most important thing from the games that the series has to capture is the look. TLOU has a dedication to this aesthetic of "beautiful decay"--if the production designer can capture that, I can forgive all manner of plot weirdness.
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Jan 14, 2023 08:24
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roomtone posted:I know I'm doing that a bit, I've tried to throw a bone to the idea that TLOU2 is not good here and there, but basically I don't believe that so it'll never be more than a bone. If you don't like the game, that's fine. I just think there's so much weird negativity surrounding that game that I feel like it's a good thing to introduce the idea that the game actually rules, and I do believe that, so I've got a lot more to say about it. You keep saying it's fine but then keep telling people why they must really not like it. You can like the game dude. It's ok, I get it's frustrating that a lot of the criticism of the game was just plain misogyny and it didn't get a fair rap but stop strawmanning peoples reasons for not enjoying the second as much. Clearly it's very special game to you and you shouldn't let other peoples opinions effect that, because that's all any of this is at the end of the day, opinions. Danger posted:The people who disliked the second game I honestly don’t believe actually liked the first one 
Mega Comrade fucked around with this message at 09:45 on Jan 14, 2023 |
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Jan 14, 2023 09:36
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remember when dog the bounty hunter ko'ed lev and then chuckled do you think they'll be doing that in season two of the last of us by hbo
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Jan 14, 2023 10:05
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Mega Comrade posted:You keep saying it's fine but then keep telling people why they must really not like it. Aren’t you the person who claimed 2 was just “revenge bad”? It’s not like you’re out here giving substantial criticism that is being ignored
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Jan 14, 2023 10:21
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navyjack posted:To drag this out of the “are the games good?” discussion and linking back to the show, I don’t think they need to roll straight from end credits in season one into Joel getting his skull smashed in at the end of S02E01. I honestly think that's the worst thing that they could do. It would basically make it into the Walking Dead 2.0.
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Jan 14, 2023 10:47
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Danger posted:The people who disliked the second game I honestly don’t believe actually liked the first one That's a stupid thing to believe. Costco Meatballs posted:That doesn't matter! what matters is they took the choice from her. For joel there is no dilemma. But like, have you forgotten the ending to the first game? What with Joel telling Ellie there was no cure, her making him swear to that, and then accepting it even though she suspects it's false, because it's a lie she can make herself believe in and then live with? Everything meaningful about that scene is completely gone if there actually was no shot at anything. Just Joel needing to rescue Ellie again, before the crazy fireflies sacrifice her to the volcano god. Job done, no drama, and the ending is nonsensical now, robbed of any impact.
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Jan 14, 2023 12:22
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Mega Comrade posted:You keep saying it's fine but then keep telling people why they must really not like it. of course, i suppose it's just that i think there is one legit reason to not like last of us 2, and that is that it is just too depressing and intense, but that is me projecting my own feelings where some days i just don't want to delve into that mindset. i think the game is close to perfect so of course i'm not really gonna get in depth with the criticisms, most of which i think are illegitimate as i've said, but even the ones i can sort of see, well i just don't care because the game made me cry 3 times, i was right in the story. if you don't like it at all, other than depressing content reasons, then i just don't understand and all i can offer is we must be different.
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Jan 14, 2023 14:04
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It’s been a while, but I didn’t see TLOU2 as even being about revenge. Well, from Abby’s perspective it is, and it is the medium through which most of the story is conveyed, but it’s pretty outright stated several times that Ellie just wanted her life to be meaningful and she’s coping with extreme survivor’s guilty because of what Joel did. Now Joel is dead, so those feelings are forever going to be unresolved, and so she throws herself at everything she can, just hoping she’ll die for something even remotely as meaningful as curing the plague. That entire game is her going on self-destructive death tear, and after a certain point she doesn’t even care about Abby specifically - it’s less a cycle of revenge and more a cycle of depression where she keeps deliberately making terrible choices because she hates herself due to a choice someone else made for her, ending up wasting the thing that made her special. The whole game seemed to me to be about how Joel’s choice at the end of the first game rippled through the entire next generation, despite that not being his intention. It was selfish and cruel, and completely loving ruined Ellie’s life because of the extreme mental burden it thrust upon her. At the end of the game you get a flashback to that conversation with Joel where she outright chides him for his choice because “my life would’ve meant something” - she keeps seeing his dead face over and over throughout the game, but then just before she kills Abby, she sees the one positive and warm image of Joel with the guitar and realizes nothing she does can provide her with existential catharsis. At least that’s how I remember it, I haven’t played it since launch. I think the story takes way too long to get to that point and large parts of the game are just not that enjoyable. I loved the open world section at the beginning, but felt that nothing else in the game lived up to it in terms of gameplay, and I just got exhausted with how dour and depressive the story got after a certain point. Too long and not enough variety. Higher highs than the first game, but also lower lows, and I think the first game is a tighter experience because of it. That said, my last replay of TLOU1 ended with me being kind of cold on it. I just think I’m in a different headspace these days and I’m naturally less inclined towards that kind of ultra-dour prestige storytelling. I just can’t find the energy for it, which is why I don’t really see myself returning to 2 anytime soon either. But I’m still interested to see Craig Mazin’s take on it, particularly through the eyes of my best friend and my dad who haven’t played the games. I’m sure it’ll be interesting to see that story from a completely different perspective.
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Jan 14, 2023 14:25
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Anyway i hope they adapt tlou2 because i wanna see if they can actually get a good actress who is even half as buff as Abby
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Jan 14, 2023 14:38
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Hakkesshu posted:That entire game is her going on self-destructive death tear, and after a certain point she doesn’t even care about Abby specifically - it’s less a cycle of revenge and more a cycle of depression yes
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Jan 14, 2023 14:50
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This is all pretty fresh for me as I only just got done playing the sequel. When the original came out, I ignored it as the only other ND game I had played was UC2 and I didn’t rate it at all. Eventually I got a PS4, picked up the remaster on the cheap and - after pals and other folks I know raving about it for years - it was just okay? It didn’t blow me away and the rave reaction just hardened me into avoiding ND stuff like the plague. Fast forward to Part II’s release and other than the big spoiler, the whole thing passed me by as 2020 was clusterfuck of real life tragedies to deal with, I had no time for games full stop. But I’ve got a PS5 now, Part II was in the sale for less than I spent on 8bit cassette tape games back in the day so I figured I may as well give it a shot. I adored it. Yeah, I knew going in what Abby was responsible for (it was one of the least avoidable spoilers ever) but not how or why, and I certainly wasn’t expecting to get Raiden’d. I was fully on board with Ellie - at first. And of course by the end was begging her to let it go and stay on the farm. But I loved the experience from start to finish, even if it was gut punch after gut punch. It gave me a new appreciation for the original, and made me very hype for the TV version. One thing I will say is I never condemn Joel’s decision though, even ignoring the logistics of producing and distributing a vaccine, the general shittiness of the Fireflies, etc. Grief will mess you up in all kinds of ways when you suffer a loss like that, it’s as natural as it gets to fight tooth and nail to save someone else you care about. As for the wider question, I always found the “hE dOOmeD hUmANitY!” stuff to be overblown - Jackson is proof that people are capable of surviving, there will likely be loads of pockets that the infection never reaches, and hell, the outbreak probably happened just in time to prevent climate change turbofucking everything down the line. It’s a harder world but not an impossible one (apart from Ellie’s chances of becoming an astronaut I guess). Anyway, Part II is the best 8.74 I ever spent, Joel and Ellie own (when they aren’t going Doomslayer on anyone who looks at them funny), and I’m looking forward to the premiere tomorrow.
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Jan 14, 2023 14:59
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excellent post, i enjoyed reading it. i agree that i don't condemn joel's choice. it's comp[letely understandable, given who he is. it does make me feel like joel....you were asking for this poo poo, in part 2. ugh it's so good.
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Jan 14, 2023 15:24
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Joel is completely in the wrong, but in a very understandably selfish way that is easy to relate to, and I can’t honestly say I wouldn’t do the same thing in a similar situation. The ending of the first game really does strike such a perfect balance.
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Jan 14, 2023 15:58
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