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BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica
Infrastructure costs are way too expensive in the US, in order to have a large networks of passenger trains you need to be able to build such a system affordably and quickly, but unfortunately that doesn't seem like it's going to occur any time soon.

An example of this is the new gateway project that was just announced recently in NY. Costs have ballooned to be more than $16 billion dollars and the project will take more than a decade to build. In NYC just maintaining the aging subway system is a monumental task seemingly far beyond the expertise of the MTA.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/03/nyregion/gateway-tunnel-amtrak-hudson-river.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gateway_Program_(Northeast_Corridor)

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BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica

Xiahou Dun posted:

Sure but itís not like the US has a magic field that makes infrastructure expensive.

One of the "magic fields" that keeps infrastructure costs prohibitively high in the US is the fact that city, state, and federal agencies usually rely on extremely expensive outside consulting firms to design and plan infrastructure projects, instead of relying on in-house expertise. This is one of the major reasons why relatively poorer cities like Barcelona or nations like Morocco have utterly surpassed the US in train infrastructure- they rely their own talent and not consultants for their infrastructure designs, so their costs don't explode out of control and constant delays. The pace of infrastructure construction in this country is pitifully slow as a result of this.

quote:

Morocco now has Africa's fastest trains, 300km/h (186mph) Al Boraq high-speed trains based on France's TGV, linking Tangier, Rabat & Casablanca every hour over a new high-speed line. Classic trains link Tangier & Casablanca with Meknes, Fes & Marrakech.

The fastest train in the richest most advanced nation in the history of the world (Amtrak Acela) can barely travel at 150 MPH and only links like half a dozen cities in the East Coast.

haveblue posted:

Of course we could have gotten started on it a decade earlier and been near completion now if Chris Christie hadnít canceled the first version for conservative points

You seem to be confusing the ARC project with the Gateway project.

It also bears repeating that pedestrian deaths and injuries from automobiles have hit a record high in recent decades and this trend doesn't seem to be slowing down, so the reliance on automobiles in the US is not just bad for the environment but also bad for everyone that doesn't drive. Americans driving fast and heavy electric SUVs is not going to make this any better.

BUUNNI fucked around with this message at 05:15 on Nov 5, 2023

BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica

Acebuckeye13 posted:

Here's the problem: Are they actually stupid, on an individual basis? Because in this realm, I don't think they are.

At this point in my life, I've lived in a pretty wide variety of areas. I grew up in suburbs, I've lived in cities, and I've also in deeply rural areas where it takes an hour just to drive to the nearest grocery store. I've driven cross-country multiple times, taken regional both regional and urban rail on a regular basis, and currently ride a combo of train and bus for my daily commute. I've also ridden mass transit in both Toronto and Paris, so I've got a pretty wide experience in getting around various places.

And all of this is to say: Mass transit, for the most part, is just more of a pain in the rear end to use than simply having your own car. Yeah, traffic sucks ó but you know what else sucks? Having to run screaming after a bus because it blew past you without stopping, walking to a train station and finding out it's closed because of a city holiday, or just having to remain standing after a long and lovely day of work because the seats on the bus are all full. When I have a car, it's easy to sit down, crank up the A/C, and turn on a podcast or some music. And if there's no traffic, I genuinely enjoy driving, especially if it's in a rural area with some nice, twisting roads. And having a car also makes it a hell of a lot easier to get groceries, run errands, or go places on my on time, on my own schedule ó as opposed to sitting, sweating, and waiting for a bus that was supposed to get here ten minutes ago but never loving arrived, so I guess I may as well just loving walk instead.

Building more mass transit is important. Car-centric infrastructure, in most cases, is both bad for people and the environment. But most people will still pick cars over mass transit because cars are still typically the less lovely option for themselves, personally, and when the solution is to make using a car more lovely so the mass transit is more appealing... it's not a surprise that people aren't thrilled with those solutions.

Making public transit lovely is a deliberate choice that we make and it only serves the owners of car dealerships and fossil fuel companies at the expense of literally everyone else and the environment.

In places like NYC the majority of people donít even need to own a car because transit is convenient and much more affordable than a car payment, insurance, gas money, and parking. Other industrialized nations invest in public transit so their levels of car ownership are not as high, and they have much healthier lives as a result. There is an interesting psychological phenomenon called motor normativity that can help explain why people who use cars literally have their brains rewired to ignore the negative externalities that stem from car dependency.

https://twitter.com/TheWarOnCars/status/1620405536843010048

BUUNNI fucked around with this message at 06:17 on Nov 5, 2023

BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica

Acebuckeye13 posted:

on the other hand, I've never had to deal with someone pooping in my car. Not the case in my experience with the New York Subway!

This isnít a universal human problem, itís a problem with your countryís culture. .

BUUNNI fucked around with this message at 10:34 on Nov 5, 2023

BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica

Gyges posted:

Especially since we're continuing to see population concentration from rural to established urban/suburban areas.

I would love to see what data you extrapolated this from. As far I remember the opposite is true, the cities with the biggest pop. increases are mostly in the south and are certainly not what any reasonable person would consider an ďestablished urban areaĒ

quote:

Following the population increase of 14.4% in Georgetown, Texas, was Santa Cruz, California, with a 12.5% increase, adding roughly 7,000 people to its population. The next three fastest-growing cities were also in Texas ó Kyle, Leander, and Little Elm.
https://www.census.gov/newsroom/pre...2C000%20people.

Also there are no fighter jets that cost hundreds of trillions of dollars as far as I know.

BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica

Ms Adequate posted:


I'm not convinced that it would be prohibitively expensive, I mean it absolutely would if it was done under the current status quo, but a government able to implement such a sea-change in the first place would be capable of creating a state-run corporation or similar to do it efficiently and which could leverage massive economies of scale. As for some lines being unprofitable, I mean, maybe? I don't think that matters given that efficient and accessible public transportation is an essential public good. The whole point is to make it serves as many people as possible, as well as possible, not to run the largest profit possible.

you need to have an army of people that have to know how to plan, design and build and wonít simply leave to work at a consulting company that offers 2x the salary. The issue isnít materials or land, itís knowledge.

BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica

Edgar Allen Ho posted:

Just fyi the idea that Europe is train heaven is overblown.

The US transit system needs changed but there is no obvious Thing everyone else does

I think itís obvious that vanishingly few countries are going to have trains be the main and only method of transport but in Europe car ownership rates are a tiny fraction of what they are here in the US, cars are not as colossally huge and expensive as they are in the US, and relative to the US Europeís passenger and commuter rail networks leave the our clunky and aging infrastructure behind in the dust.

BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica

Mid-Life Crisis posted:

Polling is meant to influence the elections. People want to vote for winners

If this is true then why did Donald Trump win the 2016 election

BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica

The Lone Badger posted:

We're headed for the comedy universe where Trump is president but the dems hold both the House and the Senate.

Wasnít this setup what got us things like expanded child care tax credit, student loan pause, thousands of dollars in cash to every working adult, and a ton of other progressive poo poo?

I kinda doubt Americans are stupid or forgetful enough to ignore the fact that the Dems were constantly talking about things like DC/PR statehood, reparations, green new deal, and lots of big sweeping changes when the last guy was sitting in the Oval Office. Since Biden was elected none of those things were ever mentioned again :shrug:

BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica

CapnAndy posted:

No no, Trump is the real progressive and Manchin and Sinema didn't have unlimited veto power for the first two years, it's an extremely intelligent analysis

No, Trump is a bumbling authoritarian fool but he was the president when Americans got all that amazing free
government stuff that would be unthinkable just a few years before.


Zoph posted:

Pretty sure the Republicans would rather commit suicide en masse than run on any of these things.

Theyíre not going to run on it, their voter base consists mostly of hateful small business owners, car dealership scions, and assorted proud-boy types that recoil in horror at the kind of stuff Dems talk about whenever Trump was in charge.

FCKGW posted:

It's true Biden has never mentioned student loans once his entire time in office

Yea but ultimately what people will likely remember is how helpful it was to have the loans put on pause while and how lovely it was to see them restart and who was in charge while both those things happened.

BUUNNI fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Nov 8, 2023

BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica

killer_robot posted:

You forgot the killer virus that was offing people by the millions.

I donít think the virus went anywhere though :v:

BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica

Killer robot posted:

Somehow I seriously doubt many people who have been bombarded with four years of "Biden wants to forgive those freeloaders' loans, STOP HIM!" with updates on how conservative courts and Republican officials fight the ongoing forgiveness and payment reform are going to go in on Election Day and think, "Yeah, that Biden guy is to blame for this!" Barring those who just want to rehabilitate Trump, there's always plenty of "Vote R to save your Social Security and Medicare!" stuff.

I think at a deeper level people who are affected by this or know someone who is affected will also recall that there was a prolonged pause for all student debtors, no matter what amount they owed, versus what debtors ended up (not) getting later, which was iirc like $10k max. Also I donít think itís possible for anyone to rehabilitate someone like Trump, fwiw.

Anyway there seems to be a student loan thread so my apologies for this derail.

BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica

Main Paineframe posted:

I don't think the Dems were constantly talking about reparations or a Green New Deal. In fact, I believe the latter was a proposal by a single House Dem.

As for DC statehood, that's already been passed by the House twice (2019, 2021), and has been introduced to the Senate with 45 cosponsors three times (2019, 2021, 2023). A far cry from "never mentioned again". I'm not going to bother googling PR statehood because I think the point has been pretty well made already.

GND wasnít just AOC though, since Markey is a Democrat iirc. As for the reparations question, it definitely was in the forefront of every debate. Even the horrid US media reported it as such.

quote:

Openly talking about reparations for the descendants of enslaved men and women is a notable shift for Democrats

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/3/11/18246741/reparations-democrats-2020-inequality-warren-harris-castro

Seems like Rep. Cori Bush was making some noise in this front but noticeably absent was the same clamor that every presidential candidate in the 2020 elections brought to the issue.

I mean I guess itís nice to have reps like AOC and Cori Bush still bringing attention to these bills but itís kind of sad thatís evidently all there ever will be.

Gyges posted:

I think looking at popularity numbers between the two needs an asterisk. People, generally, don't like Biden like they don't like Little Caesars. Not their first choice, and they're not psyched about it, but they might eat a slice of they're hungry. Meanwhile Trump is concentrated Durian Fruit. Some people love it, but the vast majority will flip the gently caress out of you bring that poo poo around.

is durian fruit supposed to be bad or something? Itís literally called the King of Fruits for a reason!

koolkal posted:

https://twitter.com/yashar/status/1722105016415342702

House censured Tlaib today with 22 Dems voting for it (and 4 Republicans against)

Been hearing about Pat Ryan and tried to see what his deal was and yepÖ makes sense heíd do something like thisÖ

quote:

Pat Ryan (D)
Ryan served in the United States Army as a military intelligence officer from 2004 to 2009, including two tours in Iraq.[8] From 2009 to 2011, he worked as the deputy director of Berico Technologies, as a subcontractor for Palantir Technologies in Afghanistan.


BUUNNI fucked around with this message at 10:58 on Nov 8, 2023

BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica

Main Paineframe posted:

According to this article, the "clamor that every presidential candidate in the 2020 elections brought to the issue" was really just Williamson saying she supported reparations, Bernie saying he didn't support reparations, and a couple of the no-hopers saying they supported the idea of potentially being open to maybe being willing to sign a bill that puts together a research committee to study the issue of reparations. Not sure why you think there's anything special about the media reporting on that.

That said, the issue was definitely not "in the forefront of every debate". It came up for a bit in early to mid 2019 when the Senate held its first ever committee hearings on a reparations-related bill, but faded into the background later in the cycle once the primary really got going.

Because I think these types of statements are always better when they come with some sort of evidence so we know it's not just some poo poo we made up, just take it from Google:


That's not everything, of course, but there's only a handful more articles that come up as results, and all of them fall into the same date range. Notice the dates. There was a flurry of coverage that started in early 2019 when a Senate committee took up the question, and then there was another brief burst of headlines in summer 2019 when Williamson made some bold pronouncements about reparations in the second debate, but then it completely vanishes from the news. Reparations completely vanish from 2020 primary coverage in mid-August 2019, and stay gone until after the election.

As for whether Dems have actually done anything about it, the Commission to Study and Develop Reparation Proposals for African-Americans Act got just 2 House co-sponsors in 2015, but in 2021 it got 196 House co-sponsors and 22 Senate co-sponsors along with an endorsement from Pelosi. It didn't go any further than committee hearings, but that's not shocking considering the very tight margins Dems have had in Congress since 2020; they've had trouble moving forward on a number of positions far more popular than reparations are.

You're absolutely correct that those dates match the time period that they were talking about it, because Trump was in office during this period and they actually had to make an effort to highlight the differences between them and the GOP. They knew what was at stake and had no issue bringing these ideas to the forefront of the debate. I guess time will tell whether the president or any of his subordinates or really anyone else that has a D next to their name keeps loudly pushing for DC/PR statehood, reparations, the GND, and all the other progressive things that they were openly debating when it seemed like we were about to get another 4 years of Trump. There WAS a period of time where the Dems felt comfortable highlighting the atrocities of the Trump administration while pushing for amazingly progressive ideas that unfortunately got shut out the second the Dems secured their control of the three branches of government.

If you're going to claim that actually reparations were never seriously being discussed then that's a different argument entirely.

Dapper_Swindler posted:

good point. my view is the moms for liberty poo poo worked when you could point to some sex filled teen book

Isn't this literally the exact framing those religious book burners use as an excuse to ban books?

BUUNNI fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Nov 8, 2023

BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica
I don't think "teen books" are actually filled with vivd sex descriptions is what I'm saying.

BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica

Dapper_Swindler posted:

sure no poo poo. but boring moderates and non political people don't know that. its way easier to spin that kinda imaginary poo poo then "actually ruby bridges made me i mean my child who i totaly have cry, ban it".

I'm trying to follow what you're saying but I'm having a hard time parsing your writing, your post just made it seem like the "teen books" were actually filled with sex descriptions.

BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica

Main Paineframe posted:

Was Trump not in office during fall 2019 or spring 2020? I'm not sure if you misinterpreted my post, but to be clear, reparations were only in the news cycle for a couple of brief periods during the 2020 primaries, and had completely dropped out of the primary field by August 2019,

Iím not following your math here, how can you claim that reparations was a topic that the Dems were pushing in 2020 then go on to state that they had completely dropped the subject in 2019?

Can you clarify what exactly youíre arguing, other than this weird claim that the time frame doesnít matter because Trump was in office?

BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica

PeterWeller posted:

The Democrats did not secure control of the three branches of government.

You're right, I meant control of the executive and the two chambers of congress, not control of the three branches of government, since evidently the judicial will never be under anything except far-right control :v:

Vahakyla posted:

How is this a ĒyepĒ when way more ex-army officers and rangers and fighter pilots voted no to censure?

Was referring to this heck of a doozy:

https://twitter.com/PalantirTech/status/1712248580558246065

BUUNNI fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Nov 8, 2023

BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica

Main Paineframe posted:

Ah, I think I see the disconnect here. The 2020 election cycle doesn't just take place in 2020, it goes from Jan 2019-Nov 2020. Even the article you posted was from mid-2019.

Reparations came up early in the 2020 cycle (the first few months of 2019) because the new Congress was pushing reparations-related bills and the media was pushing candidates to weigh in on the controversial issue. After summer 2019, the issue had largely fallen away, and was not really brought up again for the rest of the 2020 cycle ("the rest" means Sept 2019-Nov 2020).

Again, I'm referring to the debates and not individual reps introducing bills purely for show that ended up nowhere.

BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica

Main Paineframe posted:

It came up in the debates because individual reps introduced bills, although we'll have to agree to disagree about whether they were "purely for show" and "ended up nowhere".

That was the entire reason the candidates were talking about reparations at all. A reparations bill was debated by a Senate committee (which made the news, because it was farther than reparations had ever gotten before) and then reporters started asking the candidates for their stances on reparations, which led to the question being asked in the second debate, after which it was pretty much dropped from the discourse entirely because the media was satisfied with the headlines they'd gotten and none of the candidates were really interested in talking about it further (except Williamson, who desperately needed all the free press she could get).

Looking forward to having lively primary debates next election cycle, since Iím super interested in seeing whether the Dem presidential candidates support basic progressive policies like reparations and DC/PR statehood.

BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica

zoux posted:

Not if they're telling you obviously wrong things like Trump is going to outperform fivefold every Republican candidate in history among black voters .

e: unrelated: I was saying the other day I was interested in a more detailed breakdown of how the insane school board candidates fared since CRT became a thing and this thread has data for this cycle, at least
https://twitter.com/reportbywilson/status/1722379833228063219

ďMore than 1/3 of the fascists selected and funded by M4L were victoriousĒ doesnít sound awesome tbh

BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica

Combed Thunderclap posted:

I know these all feel very fresh right now but I just can't but help but think you're overestimating the average November 2024 Georgia/Michigan voter's knowledge of national child poverty statistics, feelings about only receiving $1,400 in March 2021, levels of resentment about making loan payments capped at 5% of their discretionary income with an exemption for all income below 225% of the poverty line and 0% monthly interest, and memory about something that happened a year ago somewhere overseas (to reflect the average level of knowledge of an American about anything happening on another continent, apologies in advance).

There was a famous line that a guy who was able to win the presidency by focusing on economic issues used to say as a mantra.

ďItís the economy, stupidĒ. Thereís no need to get so granular about the economic variables that are too complex for the average American citizen. Just look at how the majority of the population feels about the economy when polled. Americans are not happy.

BUUNNI fucked around with this message at 03:09 on Nov 10, 2023

BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica
I donít think union members will matter electorally as much as people think they will. Donít get me wrong, itís nice to see an octogenarian conservative white guy putting on a UAW jacket for a photo op but union membership rates still are nowhere close to the numbers the US used to have just a few decades ago. I think weíre roughly back to where we were in 2020.



BUUNNI fucked around with this message at 12:02 on Nov 10, 2023

BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica

socialsecurity posted:

It matters in Michigan which was the area being discussed. And it's more relevant then some outlier poll a year out.

The lowest union membership rates in MI ever measured by the BLS were in 2021 and have increased less than a percentage point since then. But if you have more up to date data it would be very helpful.

https://www.bls.gov/regions/midwest/news-release/unionmembership_michigan.htm

BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica

socialsecurity posted:

Doesn't mean they aren't a solid motivated voting block in a very close state. What do you think peoples point here is that Union voters are the sole factor or something?

Whoís saying anything about the motivation levels of individual union members who vote? The data simply points to the declining role of unions in the US political landscape that has been occurring for decades, in MI and in the rest of the country. The good news is the latest data shows a slight increase in union members in the last couple of years.

Time will tell if the US returns to the historical union membership rates we saw before both parties decided neoliberalism was the way to go.

BUUNNI fucked around with this message at 12:31 on Nov 10, 2023

BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica

The Artificial Kid posted:

Thatís a pretty disingenuous y axis. In just 23 years union membership has plummeted from a stratospheric 16.3 million to a near-zero level of 14.3 million. If this trend continues (instead of the current rising trend) unions will be extinct in only 140 years.

Thatís why I posted the second graph showing the same trend for the past 40+ years :v:

BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica
I had no idea the Eric Adams poo poo went this deep

https://twitter.com/JCColtin/status/1721728789728637070

BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica

James Garfield posted:

I mean if you're just trying to get catharsis by yelling at someone you can yell at your representative, that's okay. If you want to change their mind about policy you should use techniques that sometimes work to change people's minds.

Like giving them huge donations to their campaigns using your Super PAC!

BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica

Raenir Salazar posted:

It's a bit more complicated then that because of how polarized US politics is, that the Israeli lobbying is disproportionately effective. See for example what went on under Obama where Bibi was interfering a lot in domestic US affairs and relations between Obama and Bibi were very cold.

I donít think itís accurate to say that the major US political parties are polarized on the issue of military aid to Israel, or to any other regime that we support for that matter

BUUNNI fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Nov 11, 2023

BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica

Raenir Salazar posted:

Sure they are, its a zero sum game where whichever party is less "strong" on issues regarding Israel and supporting them are hurt more electorally. If Dems were much more dominant, Israeli lobbying would be much less effective.

They are not polarized at all, both parties evidently on board with Palestinian genocide. Unless youíre claiming that Joe ďIf Israel didnít exist the US would invent itĒ Biden and his party are actually secretly pro-Palestinian. Iím not saying the entirety of the Dems are as Zionist as Biden and his ilk but both parties largely agree in funding Israelís war machine. And Israelís not the only problematic military that the US funds, unfortunately.

BUUNNI fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Nov 11, 2023

BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica

Nenonen posted:

Especially when POTUS is the chief in command,

The what now?

BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica
The whole lack of meaningful healthcare for expectant mothers also impacts people of color way more than white people.

quote:


In 2021, the maternal mortality rate for non-Hispanic Black (subsequently, Black) women was 69.9 deaths per 100,000 live births, 2.6 times the rate for non-Hispanic White (subsequently, White) women (26.6) (Figure 1 and Table). Rates for Black women were significantly higher than rates for White and Hispanic women.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hesta...spanic%20women.

Just another one of those things that when you break it down by the racial groups you begin to realize itís much worse for everyone who isnít white. The way the US functions particularly in relation to healthcare outcomes just isnít sustainable. And we still pay way more for our lovely healthcare than other industrialized nations. Doesnít seem like anything is going to change anytime soon.

BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica

Misunderstood posted:


An aside: the ACA has reduced the growth in US healthcare spending (as it was designed and projected to do) and the gap between us and the rest of the world, while still gigantic, is closing a bit.





I do wonder how much of the reduced healthcare spending stat is due to the massive drop in life expectancy in the United States in the past few years.



Besides the horrid maternal mortality rates plus our drop in life expectancy and increased median age definitely make the US an outlier in industrialized nations. Again, it doesnít seem like itís going to change anytime soon since both parties largely support the status quo.



Iím sure the more recent maternal mortality rates are much much worse.

BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica

Tiny Timbs posted:

Itís really not that hard to throw a couple bucks at the ďinfluencerĒ crowd to do a quick video for you: https://www.vice.com/en/article/epxken/russian-tiktok-influencers-paid-propaganda

This works both ways though, as the Biden/Harris campaign also uses social media influencers to spread US propaganda and sway young people into voting for them.

quote:

Biden's digital strategy team will connect with influencers across the nation to target those who may not follow the White House or Democratic Party on social media ó or who have tuned out mainstream media altogether.
Four Biden digital staffers are focused on influencers and independent content creators. The staffers officially work for the White House, not Biden's campaign ó but reaching young and suburban voters is clearly a priority.
Young voters (ages 18-29) preferred Biden over Trump by a 26-point margin in 2020, and Democrats over Republicans by 28 points in the 2022 midterms.
A measure of the importance Team Biden is placing on its digital strategy: Rob Flaherty, who leads the effort, has been named assistant to the president ó the same rank as the White House communications director and press secretary.

https://www.axios.com/2023/04/09/bidens-digital-strategy-an-army-of-influencers

Were people despairing this much when they saw the amount and intensity of social media propaganda when the current administration did it or is it bad only when other countries do it?

BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica
My bad, I forgot US hegemony isnít bad for everyone involved :v:

BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica

small butter posted:

Good, honest information is freely available and has been freely available for everyone for a long time now. It's a problem when kids say their eyes have been opened by an anti-Semitic screed. I think that media literacy has gotten very poor amongst everyone, but especially younger people.

Did the generations that supported the Global War on Terrorism have more or less media literacy than the Zoomers?

BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica

zoux posted:

Everyone has less media literacy now because the methods of influence have become so ubiquitous and sources of information so plentiful that it's very, very difficult to discriminate between signal and noise, even for the very media savvy. Your average 19 year old has no loving chance.

If everyone has less media literacy now then it follows that older generations have much less of it since they have spent more time being subjected to government propaganda and foreign agents in legacy and social media.

BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica

zoux posted:

I understand, and where we disagree is the "and then go turn on CNN" part. My contention, based on the significant number of under-30s that get their news only from social media, is that they don't go turn on CNN to see the lies. That's why I don't see the two issues as related.

Pretty sure CNN uses TikTok to promote their content.

Looks like they have literally millions of followers too.

https://www.tiktok.com/@cnn?lang=en#:~:text=CNN%20(%40cnn)%20Official%20%7C%20TikTok

BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica

small butter posted:

Can you give me an example of the "media lyting to them" about what I assume is the Israel-Palestinian conflict? I didn't pay attention much to the media when I was a kid in the early 2000s, but I see a generally even-handed approach to the conflict in non-far-right media right now.

They are going down the rabbit hole not only about this, but everything. Not even young kids. My brother, for example, who is not a kid, has been conspiratorial about everything from Ukraine to a "cover-up in East Palestine" for a long time now, and he's a widely-read leftist. Imagine if you're even younger and more malleable, how easy it is fall into bullshit nowadays, even with a world of good information at your fingertips.

Like, it's actually pretty easy to get a good high-level understanding of the conflict just by reading Wikipedia. You won't be a scholar and you won't be very nuanced, but you will more or less understand what's happening. Instead, people get their info from Tik Tok and YouTube.

You could start by analyzing the kind of media your socialist brother consumes. You say heís a ďwidely read leftistĒ so what kind of books is he reading?

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BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica

Baronash posted:

If someoneís exposure to a particular news source is 1 minute snippets created by whoever happens to pop up in their feed, then they are in no way in a position to be assessing the credibility of those sources. What a bizarre argument.

1-minute snippets arenít what creators want, itís what consumers choose.

Forcing social media creators and consumers to abide by stringent regulations that control the size and content of the media products they consume would be what authoritarian nations like Cuba do.

BUUNNI fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Nov 16, 2023

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