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McNally
Sep 13, 2007

Ask me about Proposition 305


Do you like muskets?
Much like how there's a separate thread for the war in Ukraine, this is an offshoot of the Current Events thread because the CE thread can be too easily flooded with posts on one topic.

As ever, no snuff, etc.

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Cugel the Clever
Apr 5, 2009
I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA
Gotta say, an ouroboros of "what if we responded to war crimes with our own war crimes" does not lead to great results.

Grip it and rip it
Apr 28, 2020

Cugel the Clever posted:

Gotta say, an ouroboros of "what if we responded to war crimes with our own war crimes" does not lead to great results.

But maybe... this time...?

bulletsponge13
Apr 28, 2010

Cugel the Clever posted:

Gotta say, an ouroboros of "what if we responded to war crimes with our own war crimes" does not lead to great results.

We just have to war crime harder than the other guy in the second half.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glow is a feature, not a bug


Pillbug

Grip it and rip it posted:

But maybe... this time...?

"If we war crime hard enough we can cleanse.....er, gain more land!"

ThisIsJohnWayne
Feb 23, 2007
Ooo! Look at me! NO DON'T LOOK AT ME!



"Also the big crimes have to be done this week, next week Thursday at the latest, because after that there'll be another UN resolution making it too expensive. Like last time. Again."

psydude
Apr 1, 2008

Heartache is powerful, but democracy is *subtle*.
Thread's off to a great start so far.

Actual content:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/10/hamas-prepared-for-a-long-war-with-israel-as-concerns-for-hostages-in-gaza-grow

Israel is claiming that they've killed more than 1500 Hamas troops inside of Israel.

Even if that number is inflated a bit, that's way more than the "dozens" of troops that were initially reported to have crossed the border.

ASAPI
Apr 20, 2007
I invented the line.

psydude posted:

Thread's off to a great start so far.

Actual content:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/10/hamas-prepared-for-a-long-war-with-israel-as-concerns-for-hostages-in-gaza-grow

Israel is claiming that they've killed more than 1500 Hamas troops inside of Israel.

Even if that number is inflated a bit, that's way more than the "dozens" of troops that were initially reported to have crossed the border.

Holy crap. That is a whole bunch of guys doing things across the border, like more than were found already amounts of people. I have a feeling that Israel is going to be in for a bunch more random explosions in the next few weeks.

Crab Dad
Dec 28, 2002

behold i have tempered and refined thee, but not as silver; as CRAB


psydude posted:

Thread's off to a great start so far.

Actual content:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/10/hamas-prepared-for-a-long-war-with-israel-as-concerns-for-hostages-in-gaza-grow

Israel is claiming that they've killed more than 1500 Hamas troops inside of Israel.

Even if that number is inflated a bit, that's way more than the "dozens" of troops that were initially reported to have crossed the border.

Hamas/civilian it's all really just labels and we like to think it's all fluid - Israeli propaganda. likely

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glow is a feature, not a bug


Pillbug

Crab Dad posted:

Hamas/civilian it's all really just labels and we like to think it's all fluid - Israeli propaganda. likely

Yeah, its far more likely they are killing non-combatants as they have in the past and going "Oops, all Hamas"

Its not like the dead can defend themselves...

bulletsponge13
Apr 28, 2010

Israel needs to prepare to fight a real insurgency, not just shooting unarmed rioters. I have little doubt that they have experienced and trained guerrillas in Israel, along with sleeper elements. These guys will have either experience or trained by guys with experience fighting the US in the region.

From a military science standpoint, Hamas has impressed and really had their poo poo together. From the symbolism of the date, to Unconventional and conventional warfare tactics used so far.

LtCol J. Krusinski
May 7, 2013
I mean, I hate Israel as much as the next Jew, but Jesus gently caress some of you people have some brain worms Re: Israel.

I know itís not antisemitism, you folks arenít like that, but goddamn.

M_Gargantua
Oct 16, 2006

STOMP'N ON INTO THE POWERLINES

Exciting Lemon
Hamas, much like Wager, is about the strength of an oversized infantry division, right?

facialimpediment
Feb 11, 2005

as the world turns
[IDF Headquarters, October 2023]

Halevi: [chanting] crimes, crimes-

Other officials: crimes, CRIMES

Netanyahu: [pounding his clipboard] CRIMES, CRIMES, CRIMES!

ASAPI
Apr 20, 2007
I invented the line.

M_Gargantua posted:

Hamas, much like Wager, is about the strength of an oversized infantry division, right?

I'm not sure anyone actually knows. I would imagine it is hard to make a count of Hamas members, I don't believe they have membership cards or anything.

Now that I am thinking about it, it might be impossible to get a vaguely accurate number, especially when you factor in other groups that are operating in the area. Right now, it seems like Israel is saying any corpse they come across that is Palestinian is "Hamas".

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers





Anyone that runs is Hamas

Anyone that stands still is well-disciplined Hamas

Grip it and rip it
Apr 28, 2020

LtCol J. Krusinski posted:

I mean, I hate Israel as much as the next Jew, but Jesus gently caress some of you people have some brain worms Re: Israel.

I know itís not antisemitism, you folks arenít like that, but goddamn.

You think that all 1500 of the reported killed Hamas Troops were actual combatants?

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glow is a feature, not a bug


Pillbug

LtCol J. Krusinski posted:

I mean, I hate Israel as much as the next Jew, but Jesus gently caress some of you people have some brain worms Re: Israel.

I know itís not antisemitism, you folks arenít like that, but goddamn.

I mean its a country that actively alienates and ostracizes the natives and then act like they are profoundly aghast that the natives are fighting back.

And purposefully sabotaged any sort of two state solutions so they could conduct a campaign of land seizure and ethnic cleansing.

And they have a proven habit of labelling civilians who run or hide from the military as combatants down to outright killing them and/or disappearing them. The problem is it has nothing to do with being Jewish, everything to do with the political state they've created. And they've purposefully created a system that conflates criticism of Israel as a state as criticism of Jews.

CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Oct 10, 2023

Cugel the Clever
Apr 5, 2009
I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA
Reminder to be very skeptical of anything sourced from social media right now. There's a lot of fake news spread by people looking to dial the bloodlust up to 11 that is being taken up by news agencies without due vetting.

https://bsky.app/profile/bellingcat.com/post/3kbfyohy6ql2x

Grip it and rip it posted:

You think that all 1500 of the reported killed Hamas Troops were actual combatants?
That particular report mentioned in Israel, not as part of the mass slaughter in the Gaza Strip, so combatants is probably fair.

Cugel the Clever fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Oct 10, 2023

LtCol J. Krusinski
May 7, 2013
Itís loving Hamas.

Itís also loving Israel.

They suck, hard. Both sides even, g-d help me for saying it.

But Hamas isnít just homegrown anti Israeli terrorism, and the parts that arenít homegrown are pretty awful.

Now take everything I said and find/replace with Israel because goddamn is the corollary is true.

The worst part to me? This is a democracy. Israel is a democracy. There is no such thing as good governments on long enough time lines.

God I hope this ends as quickly as it began, but I doubt very much so that it does.

TheWeedNumber
Apr 20, 2020

by sebmojo

bulletsponge13 posted:

We just have to war crime harder than the other guy in the second half.

IDF

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glow is a feature, not a bug


Pillbug

LtCol J. Krusinski posted:

Itís loving Hamas.

Itís also loving Israel.

They suck, hard. Both sides even, g-d help me for saying it.

But Hamas isnít just homegrown anti Israeli terrorism, and the parts that arenít homegrown are pretty awful.

Now take everything I said and find/replace with Israel because goddamn is the corollary is true.

The worst part to me? This is a democracy. Israel is a democracy. There is no such thing as good governments on long enough time lines.

God I hope this ends as quickly as it began, but I doubt very much so that it does.

Yeah they both loving suck. Whoever wins, we all lose.

Grip it and rip it
Apr 28, 2020

LtCol J. Krusinski posted:

Itís loving Hamas.

Itís also loving Israel.

They suck, hard. Both sides even, g-d help me for saying it.

But Hamas isnít just homegrown anti Israeli terrorism, and the parts that arenít homegrown are pretty awful.

Now take everything I said and find/replace with Israel because goddamn is the corollary is true.

The worst part to me? This is a democracy. Israel is a democracy. There is no such thing as good governments on long enough time lines.

God I hope this ends as quickly as it began, but I doubt very much so that it does.

Yeah, it's important to remember that the Israeli government only really represents a plurality of its voting citizens, and even then there have been massive demonstrations against the policy proposals that they have attempted to shoehorn through since the start of this decade.

The reality is that anytime a war breaks out, it's absolutely a failure on multiple levels for reason to carry the day. People that thirst for warfare are universally idiots, and the people who suffer the most are always going to be the most vulnerable.

Hyrax Attack!
Jan 13, 2009

We demand to be taken seriously

Non-paywall link to ongoing NYT coverage: https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/1...&smid=url-share

facialimpediment
Feb 11, 2005

as the world turns

Cugel the Clever posted:

Reminder to be very skeptical of anything sourced from social media right now. There's a lot of fake news spread by people looking to dial the bloodlust up to 11 that is being taken up by news agencies without due vetting.

I think this is the first really big news event since the muskian enshittification of twitter and holy gently caress is it completely, utterly unreliable. I thought I could fish through the enshittification with the sources I follow, but it's just not really possible.

Granted, this whole deal has completely overturned a lot of experts' priors about the region, so the true experts are shutting up and trying to find out as much as we are. At this point, if it's not an on-ground video with a reporter talking, it's probably not worth much, but that's risking seeing snuff footage and imma pass on that.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glow is a feature, not a bug


Pillbug

facialimpediment posted:

I think this is the first really big news event since the muskian enshittification of twitter and holy gently caress is it completely, utterly unreliable. I thought I could fish through the enshittification with the sources I follow, but it's just not really possible.

Granted, this whole deal has completely overturned a lot of experts' priors about the region, so the true experts are shutting up and trying to find out as much as we are. At this point, if it's not an on-ground video with a reporter talking, it's probably not worth much, but that's risking seeing snuff footage and imma pass on that.

Musk has openly embraced Right Wing echochambers because he thinks it will get him closer to people in power. And because Musk is a loving apartheid Right Wing moron.

Arione
Aug 19, 2013

by Athanatos

Grip it and rip it posted:

But maybe... this time...?

I mean, it worked out pretty well for us in WW2, all the times after that we didnt do the WC thing and we lost.

ThisIsJohnWayne
Feb 23, 2007
Ooo! Look at me! NO DON'T LOOK AT ME!



Arione posted:

I mean, it worked out pretty well for us in WW2, all the times after that we didnt do the WC thing and we lost.

You didn't do war crimes in Viet Nam? Who taught you english, Josef Stalin?

Lemniscate Blue
Apr 21, 2006

Here we go again.

Arione posted:

I mean, it worked out pretty well for us in WW2, all the times after that we didnt do the WC thing and we lost.

Yeah I gotta hope this is sarcastic because if not then lmao

TheWeedNumber
Apr 20, 2020

by sebmojo

Arione posted:

I mean, it worked out pretty well for us in WW2, all the times after that we didnt do the WC thing and we lost.

yeah! no war crimes in Korea either! or the Phillipines! Nothing during manifest destiny neither!

M_Gargantua
Oct 16, 2006

STOMP'N ON INTO THE POWERLINES

Exciting Lemon

CommieGIR posted:

Musk has openly embraced Right Wing echochambers because he thinks it will get him closer to people in power.

He's not wrong.

Tiny Timbs
Sep 6, 2008

M_Gargantua posted:

He's not wrong.

I feel like he's going to run into the problem that Trump did where none of the old money and old power can stand him for a nanosecond

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glow is a feature, not a bug


Pillbug

M_Gargantua posted:

He's not wrong.

Tiny Timbs posted:

I feel like he's going to run into the problem that Trump did where none of the old money and old power can stand him for a nanosecond

This. Despite the fact that he's viewed as smart, he's a techbro douchebag who has a habit of burning bridges.

That Works
Jul 22, 2006

Every revolution evaporates and leaves behind only the slime of a new bureaucracy


Not a great argument considering one of them is/was the richest person alive and the other was president for a bit.

A lot of people could live with not being liked to be either of those.

ThisIsJohnWayne
Feb 23, 2007
Ooo! Look at me! NO DON'T LOOK AT ME!



The funniest thing is neither of those two can

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers





ThisIsJohnWayne posted:

The funniest thing is neither of those two can

:pwn:

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glow is a feature, not a bug


Pillbug

ThisIsJohnWayne posted:

The funniest thing is neither of those two can

:sbahj:

Soylent Pudding
Jun 22, 2007

We've got people!


Some quick napkin math for perspective, but in in terms of civilian casualties relative to total population Hamas's attack is an order of magnitude worse than 9-11. Or to put it another way, if Al Qaeda killed the same rough percentage of the population as Hamas just did then 9-11 would have been on the order of twenty to thirty thousand dead.

Absolutely a complete failure by the Israeli government to let this happen on their watch.

That Works
Jul 22, 2006

Every revolution evaporates and leaves behind only the slime of a new bureaucracy


ThisIsJohnWayne posted:

The funniest thing is neither of those two can

hahaha

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A.o.D.
Jan 15, 2006

The Suffering of the Succotash.

M_Gargantua posted:

He's not wrong.

Remember that time Musk unbanned Trump from his media platform to toady up to him and then Trump simply didn't come back?


That was, and continues to be, fun.

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