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Nick Soapdish
Apr 27, 2008


https://twitter.com/JimLaPorta/status/1711820488735932784

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Bell_
Sep 3, 2006

Tiny Baltimore
A billion light years away
A goon's posting the same thing
But he's already turned to dust
And the shitpost we read
Is a billion light-years old
A ghost just like the rest of us

CommieGIR posted:

Yeah they both loving suck. Whoever wins, we all lose.
I think that will hold true even for them.

LtCol J. Krusinski
May 7, 2013

I wonder if they sent the entire silver bullet or if theyíre keeping delta or the SEALs in reserve.

Thatís a goddamn lot of hostages, but Israel has a goddamn lot of special operations and so do their few ďAlliesĒ.

I gotta imagine itís no more than a squadron and associated enablers / C2 strictly for the American hostages.

JSOC ainít kicking in Gaza doors for Saul Rosenblatt unless he owns property in palm beach.

Ya know?

Grip it and rip it
Apr 28, 2020

Arione posted:

I mean, it worked out pretty well for us in WW2, all the times after that we didnt do the WC thing and we lost.

ah yes, the Korean war. An engagement notable for its lack of war crimes.

Crab Dad
Dec 28, 2002

behold i have tempered and refined thee, but not as silver; as CRAB


I would so loving pissed if I had to die for anything related to either side.

Arione
Aug 19, 2013

by Athanatos

ThisIsJohnWayne posted:

You didn't do war crimes in Viet Nam? Who taught you english, Josef Stalin?

Personally? No I wasnt born until 87.

To more pointedly answer your question. The general notion of "war crimes" has been applied as early as 1474 in the holy roman empire. Today's notion stems from the 1949 geneva convention common article 3.

But even then its a treaty, and treaties are only applicable between signatories.

Under IHL, anyone who is not a combatant is considered a civilian.138 Reserve or off-duty soldiers are considered civilians unless they take part directly in hostilities, or become subject to military command. Civilians lose their civilian protection if they directly participate in armed hostilities, but only during the period of that participation; they regain civilian status once they are no longer directly engaged in hostilities.

138 Under article 50(1) of Protocol I a civilian is defined as someone who is not a member of any organized armed forces of a party to a conflict. The same article adds that "[i]n cases of doubt whether a person is a civilian, that person shall be considered to be a civilian." Under article 51(3), civilians that directly participate in hostilities lose civilian protection for the duration of such participation.


Seems like trying to pick up the clean end of a turd.

McNally
Sep 13, 2007

Ask me about Proposition 305


Do you like muskets?

Arione posted:

Personally? No I wasnt born until 87.

To more pointedly answer your question. The general notion of "war crimes" has been applied as early as 1474 in the holy roman empire. Today's notion stems from the 1949 geneva convention common article 3.

But even then its a treaty, and treaties are only applicable between signatories.

Under IHL, anyone who is not a combatant is considered a civilian.138 Reserve or off-duty soldiers are considered civilians unless they take part directly in hostilities, or become subject to military command. Civilians lose their civilian protection if they directly participate in armed hostilities, but only during the period of that participation; they regain civilian status once they are no longer directly engaged in hostilities.

138 Under article 50(1) of Protocol I a civilian is defined as someone who is not a member of any organized armed forces of a party to a conflict. The same article adds that "[i]n cases of doubt whether a person is a civilian, that person shall be considered to be a civilian." Under article 51(3), civilians that directly participate in hostilities lose civilian protection for the duration of such participation.


Seems like trying to pick up the clean end of a turd.

what the gently caress even is this post

Radical 90s Wizard
Aug 5, 2008

~SS-18 burning bright,
Bathe me in your cleansing light~
Re Hamas numbers, there's gotta be heaps of them, I mean if you look at the number of Hamas military buildings Israel keeps Bombing finding in Gaza, sometimes they take up entire blocks or neighborhoods!

Nick Soapdish
Apr 27, 2008


https://twitter.com/AuroraIntel/status/1711839404723953963

Why would CENTCOM announce the arrival of the Ford Strike Group when Israel is in EUCOM's AOR?

Cugel the Clever
Apr 5, 2009
I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA
Maybe the real Hamas was the friends we made along the way

bulletsponge13
Apr 28, 2010

Arione posted:

Personally? No I wasnt born until 87.

To more pointedly answer your question. The general notion of "war crimes" has been applied as early as 1474 in the holy roman empire. Today's notion stems from the 1949 geneva convention common article 3.

But even then its a treaty, and treaties are only applicable between signatories.

Under IHL, anyone who is not a combatant is considered a civilian.138 Reserve or off-duty soldiers are considered civilians unless they take part directly in hostilities, or become subject to military command. Civilians lose their civilian protection if they directly participate in armed hostilities, but only during the period of that participation; they regain civilian status once they are no longer directly engaged in hostilities.

138 Under article 50(1) of Protocol I a civilian is defined as someone who is not a member of any organized armed forces of a party to a conflict. The same article adds that "[i]n cases of doubt whether a person is a civilian, that person shall be considered to be a civilian." Under article 51(3), civilians that directly participate in hostilities lose civilian protection for the duration of such participation.


Seems like trying to pick up the clean end of a turd.

If you want to be technical, the idea of war crimes started with organized warfare. They weren't formalized, but they existed. The idea of civilians in warfare is relatively recent; in conflict throughout history, the civilian populace was part of the conflict- and pay- of the armies.

War Crimes involve more than civilains, and civilians deaths aren't always a war crime, so I'm a little confused on that. If civilians are killed in a legitimate hit against legitimate targets, it isn't a war crime. And that ignores the reality of irregular warfare, where forces may not be uniformed. America with it's GWOT also created a new Grey area of the legal treatment of 'enemy combatants' which gives the precedents for others to follow. That's before we get into the intricacies of the conflict itself.

Also, not sure if you were being sarcastic about your US War Crimes synopsis, but uh...we are the loving Pros at it. There isn't a single country or conflict the US entered into that didn't have the US commit pretty deplorable poo poo- our history makes it look like bombing civilians is a hobby. WW2 was practice, post WW2 was the game. Reminder- the US has a law that we will bomb the loving ICC of they attempt to arrest/try any American. It was passed in 2003 to protect US leadership from consequences of Iraq and AFG. I can't think of a single war where the US didn't violate the agreed upon laws of warfare.

Arione
Aug 19, 2013

by Athanatos

bulletsponge13 posted:

If you want to be technical, the idea of war crimes started with organized warfare. They weren't formalized, but they existed. The idea of civilians in warfare is relatively recent; in conflict throughout history, the civilian populace was part of the conflict- and pay- of the armies.

War Crimes involve more than civilains, and civilians deaths aren't always a war crime, so I'm a little confused on that. If civilians are killed in a legitimate hit against legitimate targets, it isn't a war crime. And that ignores the reality of irregular warfare, where forces may not be uniformed. America with it's GWOT also created a new Grey area of the legal treatment of 'enemy combatants' which gives the precedents for others to follow. That's before we get into the intricacies of the conflict itself.

Also, not sure if you were being sarcastic about your US War Crimes synopsis, but uh...we are the loving Pros at it. There isn't a single country or conflict the US entered into that didn't have the US commit pretty deplorable poo poo- our history makes it look like bombing civilians is a hobby. WW2 was practice, post WW2 was the game. Reminder- the US has a law that we will bomb the loving ICC of they attempt to arrest/try any American. It was passed in 2003 to protect US leadership from consequences of Iraq and AFG. I can't think of a single war where the US didn't violate the agreed upon laws of warfare.

Yeah I'm pretty sure the strike group didnt just enter the med to distribute flowers.

Handsome Ralph
Sep 3, 2004

Oh boy, posting!
That's where I'm a Viking!


Nick Soapdish posted:

https://twitter.com/AuroraIntel/status/1711839404723953963

Why would CENTCOM announce the arrival of the Ford Strike Group when Israel is in EUCOM's AOR?

Israel was moved into CENTCOM's AOR 2 years ago.

https://www.defensenews.com/global/mideast-africa/2021/09/07/us-central-command-absorbs-israel-into-its-area-of-responsibility/

Aertuun
Dec 18, 2012

This was reposted by one of the journalists on the BBC Verify team. I haven't seen this anywhere else:

https://twitter.com/manniefabian/status/1710980029977424295

Coming from an observer's perspective, I would very happy if this thread continued to stick closely to reporting on the events taking place. Every other part of the Internet appears to be full of people giving their bad, poorly informed opinions on an incredibly complex conflict with a history that goes back (at least) a century.

ASAPI
Apr 20, 2007
I invented the line.

Aertuun posted:

This was reposted by one of the journalists on the BBC Verify team. I haven't seen this anywhere else:

https://twitter.com/manniefabian/status/1710980029977424295

Coming from an observer's perspective, I would very happy if this thread continued to stick closely to reporting on the events taking place. Every other part of the Internet appears to be full of people giving their bad, poorly informed opinions on an incredibly complex conflict with a history that goes back (at least) a century.

That opening drone footage was both interesting and scary. I don't like how easily they attacked infrastructure and kept the drone (presumably) after delivering the payload.

I never thought Hamas would end up with "airstrike" capability.

Wasabi the J
Jan 23, 2008

MOM WAS RIGHT

Cugel the Clever posted:

Gotta say, an ouroboros of "what if we responded to war crimes with our own war crimes" does not lead to great results.



Grip it and rip it posted:

But maybe... this time...?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tIdCsMufIY

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glow is a feature, not a bug


Pillbug

ASAPI posted:

That opening drone footage was both interesting and scary. I don't like how easily they attacked infrastructure and kept the drone (presumably) after delivering the payload.

I never thought Hamas would end up with "airstrike" capability.

I wonder how many lessons Hamas has taken from seeing it done in Ukraine.

A.o.D.
Jan 15, 2006

The Suffering of the Succotash.

This really should be in the OP set to autoplay

Stultus Maximus
Dec 21, 2009

USPOL May
I've decided this thread is going to be my main source of news and opinion because holy poo poo the internet is full of the worst possible takes and somehow a bunch of broke brained vets on a dead comedy site are the most sane I'll encounter.

It's unsettling as gently caress seeing Jewish friends and acquaintances whose political social media activity doesn't usually go beyond pro-Democratic politician reposts start putting up poo poo about since Hamas schools train Palestinian children to be terrorists so it's morally justified to wipe out Gaza.

Radical 90s Wizard
Aug 5, 2008

~SS-18 burning bright,
Bathe me in your cleansing light~
For real though is this the first time (not counting Mad Max 2) that loving motorized paragliders have been used as assault vehicles?

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers





Radical 90s Wizard posted:

For real though is this the first time (not counting Mad Max 2) that loving motorized paragliders have been used as assault vehicles?

I was gonna say they're even outdoing C&C Generals at this point

Soylent Pudding
Jun 22, 2007

We've got people!


Stultus Maximus posted:

holy poo poo the internet is full of the worst possible takes and somehow a bunch of broke brained vets on a dead comedy site are the most sane I'll encounter.

Aertuun
Dec 18, 2012

CommieGIR posted:

I wonder how many lessons Hamas has taken from seeing it done in Ukraine.

There's two other videos posted by the same journalist. One from Hamas and one from the IDF.

One is from Hamas, showing tanks getting attacked (by drones). The second is from the IDF, showing some buildings being levelled by single airstrikes. No bodies or gore and Twitter doesn't even show them as NSFW, but I'll mark them as NSFW just in case.

:nms:https://twitter.com/manniefabian/status/1711330417507197141

https://twitter.com/manniefabian/status/1711305174570938523

These haven't been reposted by BBC Verify, but they're from the same journalist. There are a LOT of videos of IDF airstrikes over the past few days from the same account.

Cugel the Clever
Apr 5, 2009
I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA
Setting aside the dire humanitarian catastrophe unfolding at the moment, I just have to say, what really gets my goat about this is the abject unreadiness of Israel's border troops. This is a relatively small border—how were there not sufficient automated systems in place to detect unusual activity and pull in humans to review and slam the "WAKE THE gently caress UP AND GET YOUR GUN" at the border outposts?

Tiny Timbs
Sep 6, 2008

Itís going around. The USís own internal security agency ignored insurrectionists posting detailed plans in public and then blamed it on their IT contract.

Mr. Nice!
Oct 13, 2005

c-spam cannot afford



Iím friends with a guy whose parents are Palestinian refugees, and heís really struggling as close friends are calling for his peopleís genocide.

Nick Soapdish
Apr 27, 2008



Interesting, thanks for the update. Having worked on both sides covering the Levant, it was always annoying that Israel and the Palestinian Authority were separated out. Although it was good they were with EUCOM for the longest time since CENTCOM did not give a poo poo about the Levant since having Iraq and Afghanistan already didn't leave a lot of oxygen in the room.

Hannibal Rex
Feb 13, 2010
There's a line dating back to the Kosovo War that has stuck in my mind ever since. I think it was from an article written before the NATO air campaign, about some teenagers that got killed in a massacre by Serb paramilitaries (or maybe police or regular army, there wasn't much difference at the time.)

They weren't killed despite being young. They were killed because they were young.

See, Kosovo is 'hallowed Serbian land' ever since they lost a decisive battle against the Ottomans there. Except, by the late 20th century, it was settled mostly by Albanians, who are mostly Muslim. By the late 80s and beyond, there was some nasty Serb version of the 'Great Replacement' theory making the rounds, how Albanian peasants had more children, and would outgrow and displace the Serbs eventually.

I've tried not to look at the footage coming out of Israel too closely, but I just caught a picture of a blood-soaked crib and that line came back to me.

Big K of Justice
Nov 27, 2005

Anyone seen my ball joints?

Nick Soapdish posted:

https://twitter.com/AuroraIntel/status/1711839404723953963

Why would CENTCOM announce the arrival of the Ford Strike Group when Israel is in EUCOM's AOR?

Yeah itís strange since the Ford was showing up on Turkish TikTok chilling next to the beach a week ago.

With Ukraine ongoing Iíd assume there would be at least one Carrier group in the eastern Med regardless.

orange juche
Mar 14, 2012



Big K of Justice posted:

Yeah it’s strange since the Ford was showing up on Turkish TikTok chilling next to the beach a week ago.

With Ukraine ongoing I’d assume there would be at least one Carrier group in the eastern Med regardless.

Carriers are the implement of soft and hard power, having a CSG off the coast carries the implication to Israel's neighbors i.e. Lebanon to keep minding their own business. A single CSG can devastate most countries in the world so announcing its presence is saying "here's our big stick, stay in your lane"

Kesper North
Nov 3, 2011

EMERGENCY POWER TO PARTY
And there's going to be two soon, right? IIRC the USS GW is heading in that direction now

Handsome Ralph
Sep 3, 2004

Oh boy, posting!
That's where I'm a Viking!


https://twitter.com/Faytuks/status/1711913141934645757?s=20

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/biden-urges-israeli-leader-minimize-civilian-casualties-war-hamas-rcna119826

Cugel the Clever
Apr 5, 2009
I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA
I sure hope the proposal would involve an ironclad guarantee of return and recompense, or else the United States would be directly complicit in ethnic cleansing... And I don't see why any Palestinian would trust such promises, even were they issued.

Bored As Fuck
Jan 1, 2006
Be prepared
Fun Shoe

Soylent Pudding posted:

Some quick napkin math for perspective, but in in terms of civilian casualties relative to total population Hamas's attack is an order of magnitude worse than 9-11. Or to put it another way, if Al Qaeda killed the same rough percentage of the population as Hamas just did then 9-11 would have been on the order of twenty to thirty thousand dead.

Absolutely a complete failure by the Israeli government to let this happen on their watch.

Yeah. If the story of the Egyptian intel chief warning Israel 10 days before the attack is true, then holy poo poo there will be hell to pay for those in power. They'll have every victim's blood on their hands. Again, if true.

Bored As Fuck
Jan 1, 2006
Be prepared
Fun Shoe

LtCol J. Krusinski posted:

I wonder if they sent the entire silver bullet or if they’re keeping delta or the SEALs in reserve.

That’s a goddamn lot of hostages, but Israel has a goddamn lot of special operations and so do their few “Allies”.

I gotta imagine it’s no more than a squadron and associated enablers / C2 strictly for the American hostages.

JSOC ain’t kicking in Gaza doors for Saul Rosenblatt unless he owns property in palm beach.

Ya know?

I'd imagine there's quite a bit of support to the State Dept to augment the DSS.

I'd also think you're correct - it's probably a lot of enablers like TFO rather than squadrons of Delta.

Proud Christian Mom
Dec 20, 2006
READING COMPREHENSION IS HARD

orange juche posted:

Carriers are the implement of soft and hard power, having a CSG off the coast carries the implication to Israel's neighbors i.e. Lebanon to keep minding their own business. A single CSG can devastate most countries in the world so announcing its presence is saying "here's our big stick, stay in your lane"

its there to make sure no one else presumably tries to intervene when Israel cranks the genocide knob from 2 to 11. thats what we're doing.

golden bubble
Jun 3, 2011

yospos

Aertuun posted:

This was reposted by one of the journalists on the BBC Verify team. I haven't seen this anywhere else:

https://twitter.com/manniefabian/status/1710980029977424295

Coming from an observer's perspective, I would very happy if this thread continued to stick closely to reporting on the events taking place. Every other part of the Internet appears to be full of people giving their bad, poorly informed opinions on an incredibly complex conflict with a history that goes back (at least) a century.

Oh, that's not an observation tower.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/10/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-security-failure.html

quote:

The four officials said the success of the attack, based on their early assessment, was rooted in a slew of security failures by Israelís intelligence community and military, including:

- Failure by intelligence officers to monitor key communication channels used by Palestinian attackers;

- Overreliance on border surveillance equipment that was easily shut down by attackers, allowing them to raid military bases and slay soldiers in their beds;

- Clustering of commanders in a single border base that was overrun in the opening phase of the incursion, preventing communication with the rest of the armed forces;

- And a willingness to accept at face value assertions by Gazan military leaders, made on private channels that the Palestinians knew were being monitored by Israel, that they were not preparing for battle.

....

The next failure was operational.

Two of the officials said that the Israeli border surveillance system was almost entirely reliant on cameras, sensors and machine guns that are operated remotely.

Israeli commanders had grown overly confident in the systemís impregnability. They thought that the combination of remote surveillance and arms, barriers above ground and a subterranean wall to block Hamas from digging tunnels into Israel made mass infiltration unlikely, reducing the need for significant numbers of soldiers to be physically stationed along border line itself.

....

But the remote-control system had a vulnerability: It could also be destroyed remotely.

Hamas took advantage of that weakness by sending aerial drones to attack the cellular towers that transmitted signals to and from the surveillance system, according to the officials and also drone footage circulated by Hamas on Saturday and analyzed by The New York Times.

Without cellular signals, the system was useless. Soldiers stationed in control rooms behind the front lines did not receive alarms that the fence separating Gaza and Israel had been breached, and could not watch video showing them where the Hamas attackers were bulldozing the barricades. In addition, the barrier turned out to be easier to break through than Israeli officials had expected.

Those communication towers had no human defenders nearby, meaning thelinchpin of Israel's border wall was only defended by automated and remote systems, which turn off when the towers go down. They were armored against rockets and RPG fire from all sides, but had no armor on the top. So if a few small snubfighters quadcopters manage to drop grenades right down their exhaust ports communication tower open tops, the entire front line defenses turn off, and the warning system for the human soldiers on the second line also gets knocked out.

kupachek
Aug 5, 2015

This man’s brain is trembling in the balance between reason and insanity, and as he stalks on with clenched fist and sword in hand, as though he still saw those murderous Russians gunners.

golden bubble posted:

Oh, that's not an observation tower.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/10/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-security-failure.html

Those communication towers had no human defenders nearby, meaning thelinchpin of Israel's border wall was only defended by automated and remote systems, which turn off when the towers go down. They were armored against rockets and RPG fire from all sides, but had no armor on the top. So if a few small snubfighters quadcopters manage to drop grenades right down their exhaust ports communication tower open tops, the entire front line defenses turn off, and the warning system for the human soldiers on the second line also gets knocked out.

Spared no expense.

Cugel the Clever
Apr 5, 2009
I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA

golden bubble posted:

the warning system for the human soldiers on the second line also gets knocked out.
This is the bizarre part for me, coming from a dumb software background with an ops-heavy culture: if your monitoring systems suddenly stop emitting data such that you no longer have visibility into the integrity of the system, you have high-severity alarms in place to alert on-call humans who should quickly be able sound a maximum-severity alarm that activates everyone.

It sounds like their monitoring systems got destroyed, telemetry stopped emitting, and the right alarming mechanisms either weren't in place or were ignored by a human operator.

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Kith
Sep 17, 2009

You never learn anything
by doing it right.


golden bubble posted:

Oh, that's not an observation tower.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/10/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-security-failure.html

Those communication towers had no human defenders nearby, meaning thelinchpin of Israel's border wall was only defended by automated and remote systems, which turn off when the towers go down. They were armored against rockets and RPG fire from all sides, but had no armor on the top. So if a few small snubfighters quadcopters manage to drop grenades right down their exhaust ports communication tower open tops, the entire front line defenses turn off, and the warning system for the human soldiers on the second line also gets knocked out.

This is such a colossal failure that it's almost unbelievable.

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