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Kazinsal
Dec 13, 2011



kupachek posted:

Spared no expense.

They learned from the best :911:

e: actually given the likely amount of graft in the procurement process it's probably more like :canada:

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Radical 90s Wizard
Aug 5, 2008

~SS-18 burning bright,
Bathe me in your cleansing light~
:stare: each one of those bullet points quoted is a massive gently caress up, holy poo poo.
Like that one about Hamas using comms channels they knew were compromised to spread misinfo is just classic.

The whole thing is basically a disaster of complacency and oversight or overconfidence by the IDF and Hamas exploited it perfectly.

Qtotonibudinibudet
Nov 7, 2011



Omich poluyobok, skazhi ty narkoman? ya prosto tozhe gde to tam zhivu, mogli by vmeste uyobyvat' narkotiki

Cugel the Clever posted:

This is the bizarre part for me, coming from a dumb software background with an ops-heavy culture: if your monitoring systems suddenly stop emitting data such that you no longer have visibility into the integrity of the system, you have high-severity alarms in place to alert on-call humans who should quickly be able sound a maximum-severity alarm that activates everyone.

It sounds like their monitoring systems got destroyed, telemetry stopped emitting, and the right alarming mechanisms either weren't in place or were ignored by a human operator.

like many software systems, if you don't expect something to fail, and it doesn't, you don't prioritize systems to monitor when it goes offline. i'll hazard a guess that most of these systems worked consistently when they weren't being bombed by drones

software, in a somewhat paradoxical way, is robust because it fails all the goddamn time, and the only way to make it reliable is to monitor the gently caress out of it and have automatic failure mitigation systems or at least active human attendants

some combination of that and very much expecting your border control measures to successfully prevent people from successfully importing small widely-available consumer products

Bored As Fuck
Jan 1, 2006
Be prepared
Fun Shoe
Holy gently caress that is such a massive loving failure.

psydude
Apr 1, 2008

Heartache is powerful, but democracy is *subtle*.

Looks like Israel's about to get their very own Fallujah.

Fragrag
Aug 3, 2007
The Worst Admin Ever bashes You in the head with his banhammer. It is smashed into the body, an unrecognizable mass! You have been struck down.
It's the Swiss cheese model, just without the cheese and just a huge gaping sewage pipe of incompetency

AreWeDrunkYet
Jul 8, 2006

psydude posted:

Looks like Israel's about to get their very own Fallujah.

Hopefully not
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2004-11-08/us-troops-ban-men-from-entering-leaving-fallujah/581886
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4442988.stm
https://www.ipsnews.net/2004/11/iraq-800-civilians-feared-dead-in-fallujah/

Borscht
Jun 4, 2011
We got a name for this conflict yet? Yom Kippur 2 is a pretty good thematic fit.

Cugel the Clever
Apr 5, 2009
I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA
Things may be heating up with Hezbollah. Both sides seem like they've tried to hold back in the last few days, with violent incidents being sporadic, but neither side is willing to fully ignore what they perceive as the other's aggression, so retaliation is ramping up. Hopefully won't boil over...

psydude
Apr 1, 2008

Heartache is powerful, but democracy is *subtle*.

Cugel the Clever posted:

Things may be heating up with Hezbollah. Both sides seem like they've tried to hold back in the last few days, with violent incidents being sporadic, but neither side is willing to fully ignore what they perceive as the other's aggression, so retaliation is ramping up. Hopefully won't boil over...

They've already threatened to throw in with Hamas if Israel invades Gaza. So things aren't looking promising.

Fivemarks
Feb 21, 2015
Huh. Looks like a bunch of early reports of Hamas atrocities were either fake, or blown out of proportion to justify a hardline "We have to kill all the vermin" stance. So, uh....

psydude
Apr 1, 2008

Heartache is powerful, but democracy is *subtle*.

Fivemarks posted:

Huh. Looks like a bunch of early reports of Hamas atrocities were either fake, or blown out of proportion to justify a hardline "We have to kill all the vermin" stance. So, uh....

Got a source for this? Because reporting coming out of well, everywhere, is that you're wrong.

Fivemarks
Feb 21, 2015

psydude posted:

Got a source for this? Because reporting coming out of well, everywhere, is that you're wrong.

have you got a legitimate confirmed source that the palestineans are beheading babies? Because that's fake
https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/factcheck:-israel-has-no-information-on-hamas-murdering-babi


The claims that a pregnant woman was dissecting alive by Hamas soldiers with Bayonets? Well that happened. IN the 80's. Just it was done to Lbeanese refugees by Christian militiamen with support from the Israelis https://www.arabnews.com/node/2162166/amp

bulletsponge13
Apr 28, 2010

The biggest problem is the Israeli government PR/propaganda machine is totally symbiotic with the American media, and they are making and releasing fake news stories from fictional channels. One I've seen passed around is an obvious fake news team doing a piece on beheaded babies. It appears completely staged.


Israel not only funnels billions into the MIC, they also spend billions buying politicians with Super PACs, they also spend 100s of millions in PR and media manipulators. They are completely tied to the evangelical and American right wing, and they have had a low level focus on indoctrination and information warfare. They will rule the propaganda side here.

I'm sure they are just as flawed and biased, but I've always found AL Jeezera (I miss the AJ America channel) to be a good source to keep a level view, compared to most US sources.

Fivemarks
Feb 21, 2015
Imperialist and settler colonialist forces love inventing or massively blowing out of proportion atrocities by the people they're imperializing, both to get public support on their side for solving the "native problem" and to justify their own crimes as retribution. Which isn't to say plenty of times, those attacks don't happen- but often they're just another chain in a link of violence started by settler colonialism.

It's a bit like saying that Custer's Last Stand was an evil massacre of a brave american force by evil natives, and not asking "Hey why were those Americans there?"

Fivemarks fucked around with this message at 14:48 on Oct 11, 2023

bulletsponge13
Apr 28, 2010

Fivemarks posted:

Imperialist and settler colonialist forces love inventing or massively blowing out of proportion atrocities by the people they're imperializing, both to get public support on their side for solving the "native problem" and to justify their own crimes as retribution. Which isn't to say plenty of times, those attacks don't happen- but often they're just another chain in a link of violence started by settler colonialism.

It's a bit like saying that Custer's Last Stand was an evil massacre of a brave american force by evil natives, and not asking "Hey why were those Americans there?"

Reading the actual events of Battle of Greasy Grass/Little Bighorn gave me the same feelings as reading about the Alamo- "Why the gently caress should we celebrate this? We lost because we were stupid."

Fivemarks
Feb 21, 2015

bulletsponge13 posted:

Reading the actual events of Battle of Greasy Grass/Little Bighorn gave me the same feelings as reading about the Alamo- "Why the gently caress should we celebrate this? We lost because we were stupid."

The Texans rebelled because they wanted to be able to keep Slaves (in Mexico). Texas is the only state that's rebelled twice just to keep slavery around. So we gotta celebrate The Alamo because otherwise people might think that Texas was founded for lovely reasons (Genocide of natives and the enslavement of blacks)

psydude
Apr 1, 2008

Heartache is powerful, but democracy is *subtle*.

Fivemarks posted:

have you got a legitimate confirmed source that the palestineans are beheading babies? Because that's fake
https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/factcheck:-israel-has-no-information-on-hamas-murdering-babi


The claims that a pregnant woman was dissecting alive by Hamas soldiers with Bayonets? Well that happened. IN the 80's. Just it was done to Lbeanese refugees by Christian militiamen with support from the Israelis https://www.arabnews.com/node/2162166/amp

I don't think anyone here posted about either of these things?

Fivemarks posted:

Imperialist and settler colonialist forces love inventing or massively blowing out of proportion atrocities by the people they're imperializing, both to get public support on their side for solving the "native problem" and to justify their own crimes as retribution. Which isn't to say plenty of times, those attacks don't happen- but often they're just another chain in a link of violence started by settler colonialism.

It's a bit like saying that Custer's Last Stand was an evil massacre of a brave american force by evil natives, and not asking "Hey why were those Americans there?"

Please tell us our your view on the 260 people that Hamas murdered at the music festival and the footage of them parading dead women through the streets.

Don't Ask
Nov 28, 2002

Fivemarks posted:

have you got a legitimate confirmed source that the palestineans are beheading babies? Because that's fake
https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/factcheck:-israel-has-no-information-on-hamas-murdering-babi


The claims that a pregnant woman was dissecting alive by Hamas soldiers with Bayonets? Well that happened. IN the 80's. Just it was done to Lbeanese refugees by Christian militiamen with support from the Israelis https://www.arabnews.com/node/2162166/amp

How the poo poo is this considered a reputable source, are you serious?

That lovely site posted:

The correspondent in question is Nicole Zedeck. She was attached to a unit of the IOF that had been dispatched to the "Kfar Aza" kibbutz where fierce confrontations took place between Palestinian Resistance fighters and Israeli occupation forces and settlers since Saturday morning.

So they consider every single Israel a settler? They consider the hamas fuckers, who have been widely recorded murdering civilians, "resistance fighters"? IOF??

gently caress off with that poo poo. I really hope that the stories of beheaded babies are false, the factual reality of what they did is bad enough.


e: yeah it's from wikipedia so take it with a huge grain of salt, can you refute this?

Don't Ask fucked around with this message at 15:10 on Oct 11, 2023

psydude
Apr 1, 2008

Heartache is powerful, but democracy is *subtle*.
Let's also put aside that jews and arabs have been inhabiting Israel/Palestine for thousands of years. Israelis can only be settlers / colonizers in this context, even though modern day Israel and Palestine themselves were a British colony until after World War II.

Fivemarks
Feb 21, 2015
I mean, yeah, Israelis are basically a Settler Colonialist state. Same for White Americans and Canadians and Mexicans and most of the Americas. Same for Australia and New Zealand.

Edit: This is not me saying that genocide or "Push them into the sea is good", mind you.

psydude
Apr 1, 2008

Heartache is powerful, but democracy is *subtle*.

Fivemarks posted:

I mean, yeah, Israelis are basically a Settler Colonialist state. Same for White Americans and Canadians and Mexicans and most of the Americas. Same for Australia and New Zealand.

Edit: This is not me saying that genocide or "Push them into the sea is good", mind you.

You have no idea what you're even talking about. You do realize that the vast majority of Israelis are historically from Israel, right? Like their ancestors have lived there for thousands of years?

Don't Ask
Nov 28, 2002

Fivemarks posted:

I mean, yeah, Israelis are basically a Settler Colonialist state. Same for White Americans and Canadians and Mexicans and most of the Americas. Same for Australia and New Zealand.

Edit: This is not me saying that genocide or "Push them into the sea is good", mind you.

Sure, let's say that somehow makes any sense, but considering that the common usage of settlers (in the context of Israel) is mainly when referring to the crazies in the West Bank, using that term for people living within the intl. recognized borders of the country is usually a good sign that the writer has a deep bias against Israelis as a whole.

Diarrhea Elemental
Apr 2, 2012

Am I correct in my assumption, you fish-faced enemy of the people?

psydude posted:

You have no idea what you're even talking about. You do realize that the vast majority of Israelis are historically from Israel, right? Like their ancestors have lived there for thousands of years?

Diarrhea Elemental posted:

OTOH, a cultural belief doesn't magically grant you the right to... colonize an already existing place. By force. "My great, great, great grandparents used to live in this house and we've been persecuted since we got kicked out" doesn't somehow make it right for you to effectively steal the poo poo of someone 15 generations down the line who inherited it.

psydude
Apr 1, 2008

Heartache is powerful, but democracy is *subtle*.

Hey thanks for putting words in my mouth and also making my point at the same time. This guy was literally arguing that all Israelis are colonizers and thus we shouldn't feel bad when they're murdered. I'm as vehemently opposed to Israel's apartheid of Palestine and Netanyahu's cynical exploitation of the rivalry between Hamas and Fatah as anyone, but come the gently caress on.

Fivemarks
Feb 21, 2015

Don't Ask posted:

Sure, let's say that somehow makes any sense, but considering that the common usage of settlers (in the context of Israel) is mainly when referring to the crazies in the West Bank, using that term for people living within the intl. recognized borders of the country is usually a good sign that the writer has a deep bias against Israelis as a whole.

I am already going to regret making this post but gently caress it.

Let's say its the 1870's. Where does the line between "Settler Colonialism'd Land" and "Our Land" lay in America?

psydude posted:

Hey thanks for putting words in my mouth and also making my point at the same time. This guy was literally arguing that all Israelis are colonizers and thus we shouldn't feel bad when they're murdered. I'm as vehemently opposed to Israel's apartheid of Palestine and Netanyahu's cynical exploitation of the rivalry between Hamas and Fatah as anyone, but come the gently caress on.

Edit: I may have said that Israel is a Settler Colonial state, but that doesn't mean the solution to the problem is "Kill'em all and drive them into the sea". I sure as hell didn't say that. I just said it's a Settler Colony, same as America or canada or Mexico or Australia or New Zealand. I certainly don't think any of those states should have their non native populations killed and murdered.

Fivemarks fucked around with this message at 15:25 on Oct 11, 2023

mrmcd
Feb 22, 2003

Pictured: The only good cop (a fictional one).

I think it's bad to shoot and bomb unarmed people whoever they and you are. That's my hot take.

*turns on the news* Oh murder and war crimes for everyone then ah oh well maybe next year.

psydude
Apr 1, 2008

Heartache is powerful, but democracy is *subtle*.

Fivemarks posted:

I am already going to regret making this post but gently caress it.

Let's say its the 1870's. Where does the line between "Settler Colonialism'd Land" and "Our Land" lay in America?

Edit: I may have said that Israel is a Settler Colonial state, but that doesn't mean the solution to the problem is "Kill'em all and drive them into the sea". I sure as hell didn't say that. I just said it's a Settler Colony, same as America or canada or Mexico or Australia or New Zealand. I certainly don't think any of those states should have their non native populations killed and murdered.

You're really missing the point here - the majority of Israelis are native to Israel just like the Palestinians. There can be more than one ethnic/religious group that have long historical ties to a region.

Diarrhea Elemental
Apr 2, 2012

Am I correct in my assumption, you fish-faced enemy of the people?

psydude posted:

Hey thanks for putting words in my mouth and also making my point at the same time. This guy was literally arguing that all Israelis are colonizers and thus we shouldn't feel bad when they're murdered. I'm as vehemently opposed to Israel's apartheid of Palestine and Netanyahu's cynical exploitation of the rivalry between Hamas and Fatah as anyone, but come the gently caress on.

The bolded part makes this ironic, especially considering you got his edit in your quote too.

psydude
Apr 1, 2008

Heartache is powerful, but democracy is *subtle*.

Diarrhea Elemental posted:

The bolded part makes this ironic, especially considering you got his edit in your quote too.

Did you not read his previous post?

quote:

It's a bit like saying that Custer's Last Stand was an evil massacre of a brave american force by evil natives, and not asking "Hey why were those Americans there?"

Laughing Zealot
Oct 10, 2012


https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/11/what-is-the-palestinian-authority-and-how-is-it-viewed-by-palestinians

Good refresher on the Palestinian "authority" that governs the West Bank. I don't think I've seen any news on how it's responding to this situation.

Plastic_Gargoyle
Aug 3, 2007
Injection-Molded

Fivemarks posted:

Huh. Looks like a bunch of early reports of Hamas atrocities were either fake, or blown out of proportion to justify a hardline "We have to kill all the vermin" stance. So, uh....

You're suggesting that we should believe in the goodwill of loving hamas of all people not to commit atrocities?

And no, there has been plenty of reporting documenting what has been done, by people without the ideological bias you so obviously desire.

Vvv would you care to translate that into English for us with an actual life please?

Plastic_Gargoyle fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Oct 11, 2023

Fivemarks
Feb 21, 2015
Someone post Experience Bij because that's what participating in this thread feels like.

Mr. Nice!
Oct 13, 2005

c-spam cannot afford



psydude posted:

I don't think anyone here posted about either of these things?

Please tell us our your view on the 260 people that Hamas murdered at the music festival and the footage of them parading dead women through the streets.

The rave stories are also looking to not be completely correct, and one of the supposedly murdered/raped women is 100% alive.

There is a lot of really bad info coming out around everything, and Israel is definitely taking advantage of the bad information.

Diarrhea Elemental
Apr 2, 2012

Am I correct in my assumption, you fish-faced enemy of the people?

psydude posted:

Did you not read his previous post?

We're talking about people who within living memory had their poo poo taken away by force and had their own country turned into an apartheid state against them, with every ugly indignity and outrage possible visited on them constantly. Who exactly is shocked when some of those people absolutely lose their poo poo and, not being morally justified but in a completely unsurprising turn, take out all of that in any direction possible and in the most unspeakable of ways? And if we see a follow-up post:

Fivemarks posted:

Edit: I may have said that Israel is a Settler Colonial state, but that doesn't mean the solution to the problem is "Kill'em all and drive them into the sea". I sure as hell didn't say that. I just said it's a Settler Colony, same as America or canada or Mexico or Australia or New Zealand. I certainly don't think any of those states should have their non native populations killed and murdered.

Conveniently, the state in question has non-native populations concentrated in two geographical areas that are currently subject to gross violation of basic human rights and continued invasion by Israeli settlers colonizing Palestinian settlements. One side is historically native with long ties to the region, one side was disenfranchised in living memory and currently lives under the thumb of the other side currently.

Soylent Pudding
Jun 22, 2007

We've got people!


Before the birth of modern Zionism, Palestine was already one of if not the most heavily Jewish populated regions in the world as a percentage of the population, with some sources suggesting as high as 10%. Even if Zionism never happened there would have been enough Jewish communities in Palestine to demand their own separate state following British decolonization.

Note, there are western countries such as Russia that ghettoized their Jewish populations and the Jewish percentages of the regions containing ghettos were much high than in countries where Jews had free movement, and in those cases the Jewish population is usually averaged over the entire country's population or the larger regions the ghettoized Jews were mostly expelled from.

Israel is a settler colonialist state because it is colonizing, displacing, and genociding Palestinians in the west bank and gaza. Israelis living in settlements in occupied Palestine are settlers and colonists and Israel should dismantle them and repatriate the inhabitants to Israel proper. Israelis living in the recognized borders of Israel outside of Palestine are not settlers or colonists to the extent they are not actively participating in those crimes against humanity and have as much of a right to live in the region as the Palestinians do.

Sderot is inside the green line and pre-67 borders and therefore outside the territory Palestine claims, yet I've seen plenty of folks, including folks on this forum, call the murdered civilians there "colonists" and "settler occupiers". It's also been my personal experience that folks using settler occupier language to describe every civilian in Israel outside of Palestine's claimed borders are simply performing the requisite dehumanization to feel comfortable calling for the ethnic cleansing of all Jewish people from the region.

psydude posted:

You're really missing the point here - the majority of Israelis are native to Israel just like the Palestinians. There can be more than one ethnic/religious group that have long historical ties to a region.

Fivemarks
Feb 21, 2015

Soylent Pudding posted:

Before the birth of modern Zionism, Palestine was already one of if not the most heavily Jewish populated regions in the world as a percentage of the population, with some sources suggesting as high as 10%. Even if Zionism never happened there would have been enough Jewish communities in Palestine to demand their own separate state following British decolonization.

Note, there are western countries such as Russia that ghettoized their Jewish populations and the Jewish percentages of the regions containing ghettos were much high than in countries where Jews had free movement, and in those cases the Jewish population is usually averaged over the entire country's population or the larger regions the ghettoized Jews were mostly expelled from.

Israel is a settler colonialist state because it is colonizing, displacing, and genociding Palestinians in the west bank and gaza. Israelis living in settlements in occupied Palestine are settlers and colonists and Israel should dismantle them and repatriate the inhabitants to Israel proper. Israelis living in the recognized borders of Israel outside of Palestine are not settlers or colonists to the extent they are not actively participating in those crimes against humanity and have as much of a right to live in the region as the Palestinians do.

Sderot is inside the green line and pre-67 borders and therefore outside the territory Palestine claims, yet I've seen plenty of folks, including folks on this forum, call the murdered civilians there "colonists" and "settler occupiers". It's also been my personal experience that folks using settler occupier language to describe every civilian in Israel outside of Palestine's claimed borders are simply performing the requisite dehumanization to feel comfortable calling for the ethnic cleansing of all Jewish people from the region.

I PROBABLY Shouldn't bring up stuff like the Village of Najd, and how it was depopulated by the Negev Brigade, and how Sderot was built on its ruins?

Pine Cone Jones
Dec 6, 2009

You throw me the acorn, I throw you the whip!
This discussion doesn't seem prudent to the issue at hand and trying to cover the events.

Mr. Nice!
Oct 13, 2005

c-spam cannot afford



Pine Cone Jones posted:

This discussion doesn't seem prudent to the issue at hand and trying to cover the events.

It really does. Education about the history of horrible colonizer/settler action against Palestine is why these events are happening today. This poo poo has been going on for almost a hundred years now.

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CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glow is a feature, not a bug


Pillbug

Soylent Pudding posted:

Before the birth of modern Zionism, Palestine was already one of if not the most heavily Jewish populated regions in the world as a percentage of the population, with some sources suggesting as high as 10%. Even if Zionism never happened there would have been enough Jewish communities in Palestine to demand their own separate state following British decolonization.

Note, there are western countries such as Russia that ghettoized their Jewish populations and the Jewish percentages of the regions containing ghettos were much high than in countries where Jews had free movement, and in those cases the Jewish population is usually averaged over the entire country's population or the larger regions the ghettoized Jews were mostly expelled from.

Israel is a settler colonialist state because it is colonizing, displacing, and genociding Palestinians in the west bank and gaza. Israelis living in settlements in occupied Palestine are settlers and colonists and Israel should dismantle them and repatriate the inhabitants to Israel proper. Israelis living in the recognized borders of Israel outside of Palestine are not settlers or colonists to the extent they are not actively participating in those crimes against humanity and have as much of a right to live in the region as the Palestinians do.

Sderot is inside the green line and pre-67 borders and therefore outside the territory Palestine claims, yet I've seen plenty of folks, including folks on this forum, call the murdered civilians there "colonists" and "settler occupiers". It's also been my personal experience that folks using settler occupier language to describe every civilian in Israel outside of Palestine's claimed borders are simply performing the requisite dehumanization to feel comfortable calling for the ethnic cleansing of all Jewish people from the region.

Yeah I think you missed the entire point about how native Jewish people and Zionism are not the same, and how Zionism led to poo poo like this:

Fivemarks posted:

I PROBABLY Shouldn't bring up stuff like the Village of Najd, and how it was depopulated by the Negev Brigade, and how Sderot was built on its ruins?

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