|
Neurosis posted:Optimism helps us to function when we are objectively wretched. I can see arguments for it being a useful trait. There are studies going either way on depressive realism, so its veracity is far from accepted (I find it an amusing hypothesis and as a depressive person it wouldn't surprise me at all). Apart from maybe the next book!
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2012 00:34
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 09:42 |
|
|
Some studies suggest that even depressive people are overly optimistic. If only we could be more rational so we would realise the wisdom of your suggestion. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2012 08:27
|
|
|
You're all thinking too broad - this is more towards specific situations, the: "Yeah, I can totally make that jump" and the "Oh, it's just down the street, I don't need to buckle up". People tend to dramatically under estimate the probability of something bad happening to them after they expose themselves to danger and nothing happens. It's the: "I don't need to wear my helmet, I've ridden my motorcycle a hundred times and never been in an accident!" line of thinking. Some people are awful about this. I knew this one chick who never wore protective gear riding her bike, and the one time I actually convinced her to she got in a minor spill. She was completely uninjured thanks to her helmet, but her primitive mammal brain associated wearing the helmet with getting in the accident and she never wore it again. edit: Not to get too off topic, some of the end parts of Excession confused me. For example, why does the Not Invented Here suicide itself? The Attitude Adjuster offed itself because it...reasons (The shame of being wrong? The possibility that it had made the whole thing up?) , but it's not like Not Invented Here is guilty of gigadeathcrime or something. How would it even be punished? Red Crown fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Apr 19, 2012 |
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2012 16:02
|
|
|
I just reread Player of Games and I had a question about the Epilogue. After my first reading I had assumed Mawhrin-Skel got rehoused into a new body as Flere-Imsaho, but on this pass through I got more of the impression that Flere-Imsaho created Mawhrin-Skel as a fake drone to help convince Gurgeh to play Azad based on the shape and size of the missing bit from Mawhrin-Skel's body matching the game piece that he crushed earlier. Anyone else have any thoughts?
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2012 16:30
|
|
|
Beffer posted:Anyone read Stonemouth yet? It's in my local bookstore, but I'm a bit iffy on the non-ski fi Banks books. The last few have been pretty bleh. I read it and liked it (needed something on the plane) but I don't really have much to compare it to since I've not read his other non-sci-fi stuff.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2012 17:06
|
|
|
wins32767 posted:I just reread Player of Games and I had a question about the Epilogue. I took it to mean that everything, right down to Mawhrin-Skel's very existence, was an SC trick, and Gurgeh got played from start to finish.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2012 17:25
|
|
|
Saw Banks speak at Cambridge the other week, and thoroughly enjoyed it. My friend and I were both surprised at the average age of the audience (which was probably significantly lowered by the two of us) but then I guess he was there as just Iain Banks, talking about a non-sci-fi book (Stonemouth). He began the session with a short reading from chapter four, which contains the line 'You'd fist a skunk if you thought there was a drink in it'. This was met with a stony silence by the rather elderly audience of the Cambridge Literary Festival, who seemed to struggle to understand Iain's accent. I, however, sniggered quite loudly which was rather embarrassing. Anyway, he said that his next M-less novel he hopes to make a bit more sci-fi like, a bit like the The Bridge. Other than that he said some pretty interesting stuff about how he comes up with his ideas, but mostly just about fisting skunks
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2012 17:35
|
|
|
wins32767 posted:I just reread Player of Games and I had a question about the Epilogue. I think your first reading is more on target. Mawhrin-Skel and Flere-Imsaho are clearly the same drone. In the same way Flere was masquerading as a harmless, dumb piece of junk in Azad it was earlier pretending to be this misanthropic, SC reject. I took the missing piece from Mawhrin-Skel's casing to be shaped like Flere-Imsaho not the crushed game piece, but I may have mis-remembered that. Red Crown posted:edit: Not to get too off topic, some of the end parts of Excession confused me. For example, why does the Not Invented Here suicide itself? The Attitude Adjuster offed itself because it...reasons (The shame of being wrong? The possibility that it had made the whole thing up?) , but it's not like Not Invented Here is guilty of gigadeathcrime or something. How would it even be punished? Minds seem to take the approval of their peers very seriously. The punishment would likely be ostracism and the GSV equivalent of a slap-drone. Remember, Attitude Adjuster was one of its child ships, so it had a hand in duping the Pittance Fleet and provoking a war. It may not have resulted in megadeaths, but it might as well be the same thing as far as Minds are concerned in terms of gross irresponsibility. As for the Attitude Adjuster... it most certainly didn't commit suicide. And I'm not talking about how the Killing Time putting it out of its misery after the battle. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2012 18:34
|
|
|
Red Crown posted:edit: Not to get too off topic, some of the end parts of Excession confused me. For example, why does the Not Invented Here suicide itself? The Attitude Adjuster offed itself because it...reasons (The shame of being wrong? The possibility that it had made the whole thing up?) , but it's not like Not Invented Here is guilty of gigadeathcrime or something. How would it even be punished? beaten by Lasting Damage, but oh well: The Not Invented Here is one of the leaders of the conspiracy to take the Affront down a couple notches by entrapping them somehow. It (along with the Different Tan) was one of the Minds responsible for the selection of the asteroids that would become weapon stores, and as such was one of the ones who made sure that Pittance would be drifting through Affront space in the next few hundred years. The conspiracy was waiting for something to happen where Affront aggression wouldn't look too uncharacteristic, use a ship like Attitude Adjuster to take control of the Mind on Pittance, and then give the warships (who have been told a different story about a Culture/Affront alliance) to the command of the Affront, who would do something terrible with them that would provoke a harsh pushback from the Culture, thereby finally realizing the goal of the conspiracy to make the Affront less of an affront to the Culture's morals. The excession is the something that the conspiracy has been waiting for (for hundreds of years): A plausible reason for the Affront to become aggressive and try something like stealing a couple hundred Culture warships. So, the Not Invented Here, which has made itself Event Coordinator for the whole excession thing, kills itself because it is obvious that the plan has failed and that it was one of the plans masterminds. It didn't kill anyone directly, but it was responsible for the effects of the brief Culture/Affront war that it helped provoke, as well as the less than morally acceptable plan to have that war go on, end badly for the Affront (as it only could), and result in strict sanctions on Affront culture. It killed itself because after being found out the rest of its life would be empty. It would be followed everywhere, have its even semi dangerous systems/capabilities removed, and nobody would ever want to talk to a war criminal. Basically it would be in solitary confinement, probably forever. WARNING, MORE SPOILERY THAN LASTING DAMAGE'S ANSWER. This will tell you straight up what happened. The Attitude Adjuster, on the other hand, dies for a different reason. If you read that passage again (and some of the stuff that comes after) it becomes clear that the Killing Time invaded the Mind of the Attitude Adjuster, got as much info about the conspiracy as it could out of it, took the mindstate of the murdered Gestra Ishmethit, and then intentionally bent the Attitude Adjuster's thoughts in a direction that would lead to 'suicide.' What it did is considered hateful and dishonorable by the other warships of the Pittance fleet, who see what happened.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2012 18:57
|
|
|
I have no idea how that slipped passed me. Wow, thanks. I must have put it down and then picked up starting at a later paragraph. I guess that all makes sense. I still feel like that somewhat contradicts Banks' characterization of the Minds, Infinite Fun Space, and how their connection to actual reality was somewhat limited. I figured Not Invented Here would just retreat to the depths of it's own core and live out its days.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2012 22:10
|
|
|
I feel the same way. He straight up says "Infinite Fun Space is where Minds live, and they think about the real universe simply as the substrate that allows their physical selves to exist and create these virtual multiverses. They do things in the real universe mostly to make sure they can continue to create/experience Infinite Fun Space." In his other writings/books Minds take more of an interest in the real universe for the things it contains. One of the biggest counterexamples is one of the plots of Excession itself: the Sleeper Service trying to get Genar-Hofoen and Dajeil Gelian to meet and come to some sort of peace. It cares very much about their lives/relationship and the mistake it felt it had made in helping them get together. Their relationship status couldn't have very much to do with the sustinence of IFS. So there's that. And of course the Mind of the Lasting Damage in Look to Windward is shown to be very sympathetic to the humans/life it watches over. I guess loving Infinite Fun Space (and spending a lot of time there) and caring deeply about the real universe, even down to the level of individual humans, aren't mutually exclusive for a Mind. It does sort of make sense: what self respecting hyperbeing with godlike powers would neglect any aspect of its life, internal or external? If you could do anything almost flawlessly, why wouldn't you? e: I guess the Not Invented Here wouldn't be ok with just living in IFS, since it obviously does care very much about the real universe: Enough to risk its own life and reputation to help come up with the conspiracy. Presumably the suffering inflicted on other sentients by the Affront bothered it enough to try what it did, which in a way is sad and noble. Its reaction to the failure of the plan, in that light, seems somewhat understandable. Prolonged Panorama fucked around with this message at 06:31 on Apr 20, 2012 |
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2012 06:15
|
|
|
Prolonged Priapism posted:I guess loving Infinite Fun Space (and spending a lot of time there) and caring deeply about the real universe, even down to the level of individual humans, aren't mutually exclusive for a Mind. It does sort of make sense: what self respecting hyperbeing with godlike powers would neglect any aspect of its life, internal or external? If you could do anything almost flawlessly, why wouldn't you? I'd say you've hit the nail exactly on the head, there. They're close to gods, and on the far side. I'd imagine they're perfectly capable of dealing with and caring about the internal and external universe at the same time.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2012 12:41
|
|
|
In Excession it talks about how Minds deliberately set minders for themselves to make sure they don't get completely caught up in IFS. The reasoning is more "no matter how awesome this is, someone could still pull the plug for boring, bland, ugly, unfashionable realspace" than "we can make both equally interesting" though, at least for most Minds.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2012 00:54
|
|
|
Tuxedo Catfish posted:In Excession it talks about how Minds deliberately set minders for themselves to make sure they don't get completely caught up in IFS. The reasoning is more "no matter how awesome this is, someone could still pull the plug for boring, bland, ugly, unfashionable realspace" than "we can make both equally interesting" though, at least for most Minds.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2012 02:34
|
|
|
andrew smash posted:I honestly wish he hadn't introduced infinite fun space, it's kind of dumb and doesn't add much to the mystique of minds. I still think the best portrayal of a mind was masaq hub in look to windward. Have you ever played a computer game?
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2012 00:33
|
|
|
I'm working my way through the culture novels and just finished Use of Weapons. I didn't have any problem following the narrative structure but I read it in short bursts over a long period of time so please humor me and tell me if I got the whole thing right. The chapters that deal with Zakalwe's life growing up are from the perspective of the real Zakalwe who grew up with his two sisters and Elethiomel, the son of a rebel faction leader who later led that faction to a bloody victory. Everything after Zakalwe shoots himself is from the perspective of Elethiomel, who calls himself Zakalwe even in his internal monologue. Where I get confused is with the bone chip in his heart, I swear it gets referenced in the real Zakalwe chapters and the Elethiomel chapters. Was I missing something? Did Elethiomel have a psychotic break and really believe he was Zakalwe?
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2012 12:59
|
|
|
Gangringo posted:I'm working my way through the culture novels and just finished Use of Weapons. I didn't have any problem following the narrative structure but I read it in short bursts over a long period of time so please humor me and tell me if I got the whole thing right. The bone chip is mentioned in chapter VII going into "his" body, which is deliberately vague after a chapter where everyone is constantly referred to by name. Whoever 'he' is is the same person dying on the shore of the caldera and remembering their past. As far as Elethiomel's reasons for using his brother's name, I got the feeling that he's very aware of what he's done and he has regrets about it. But given the type of person he is, he would do it all again. Contact use him because he is capable of doing anything to win.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2012 10:35
|
|
|
^Esposito posted:Contact use him because he is capable of doing anything to win. I thought Contact had no idea? Sma certainly didn't.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2012 11:03
|
|
|
MikeJF posted:^ Perhaps not Diziet, but her erstwhile companion, I think so.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2012 12:47
|
|
|
I took it as neither of them knew about his past because of the epilogue. They pick up people for SC in such dire situations offering them something that would be impossible for them to get any other way, so even if those people had done horrible things they were ashamed of they'd lie to avoid the possibility of that offer being rescinded.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2012 14:44
|
|
|
Esposito posted:But given the type of person he is, he would do it all again. Contact use him because he is capable of doing anything to win. Once you've read the whole book you can see that his experiences as an agent for SC, and just the passage of time, have made him want to be a better person and reject his old attitude about, er, the use of weapons. At first, he's content to keep fighting no holds barred so long as he has faith that the cause is noble, but eventually he becomes skeptical that the ends justify the means. His guilt won't let him simply retire to a quiet life, but he won't do whatever it takes any more. To SC, this means he's burnt out and useless...worse than useless, in fact. A menace, since he's trying to help people but won't mindlessly follow orders from Minds. They only recruit him for the "present day" episode in Use of Weapons because of his personal connection with the politician (so close that he had told him about the Staberinde).
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2012 23:15
|
|
|
Lex Talionis posted:This is something easy to miss because of the book's weird chronology, but the point of the Winter Palace scene is that Zakalwe won't do it all again, and as a result, Contact won't use him. In the Winter Palace they are besieged just like on the Staberinde, and later we are told Contact expected him to do something outrageous to break out...only for him to botch the operation. I don't have my copy of the book handy but they say something like, "He just couldn't get it done." (Although it's hard to believe the Culture wouldn't have backtracked and researched his past when they first recruited him, my take is if they had known, they wouldn't have been so surprised at his failure at the Winter Palace). Aren't the prologue and epilogue set after the last chapter? He has the shaved head in both and he still seems to be a culture agent.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2012 01:15
|
|
|
Gangringo posted:Aren't the prologue and epilogue set after the last chapter? He has the shaved head in both and he still seems to be a culture agent.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2012 03:29
|
|
|
I just read my first Banks book, Consider Phlebas. I didn't recognize it as a reference to The Waste Land, so first of all I was wondering what the heck a Phlebas was, a planet, a character, a concept... Who knows! It was frustrating waiting for the title to be explained and it never was. Anyway now I'm bummed as heck. This book bummed me out. I thought I was bummed out before but then I read the epilogue: oh yeah the only survivor commits suicide twice. The first time as like a protest, almost a joke, the second when she woke up years later unexpectedly. Everyone died. No point to anything. Slit your wrists, all effort is futile. Nothing matters. You say Player of Games is "better"?
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2012 03:41
|
|
|
Do people seriously not read the epigrams at the beginning of books?
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2012 05:01
|
|
|
I bought it on kindle, kindle auto-opens it to chapter one page one. I didn't know there was an epigram! How was I to know to click backwards three times?
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2012 06:17
|
|
|
I've read Player of Games, Use of Weapons, and Consider Phlebas. I enjoyed PoG so much more than Consider Phlebas that I'm annoyed I started with CP.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2012 07:39
|
|
|
I dunno, I liked Consider Phlebas, I think it's a good story. It's very different in tone from the other culture novels I've read but I think it works well as a straight sci-fi adventure. The difference seems to be that you could make Consider Phlebas into a feature length movie and it would be two hours of awesome, but most of the other books would need to be a mini-series, and even then you wouldn't get half of the story.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2012 07:56
|
|
|
Krinkle posted:I just read my first Banks book, Consider Phlebas. I didn't recognize it as a reference to The Waste Land, so first of all I was wondering what the heck a Phlebas was, a planet, a character, a concept... Who knows! It was frustrating waiting for the title to be explained and it never was. Player of Games is a much happier book, I would definitely recommend reading it - not just because it's a more enjoyable read, but because it'll help cheer up your perception of the whole Culture universe.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2012 12:37
|
|
|
I would also like to note there is at least one other survivor at the end of Consider Phlebas, you artificial sentience-hating bigot!
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2012 12:41
|
|
|
Entropic posted:Do people seriously not read the epigrams at the beginning of books? I was thinking exactly that...
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2012 12:50
|
|
|
Krinkle posted:I bought it on kindle, kindle auto-opens it to chapter one page one. I didn't know there was an epigram! How was I to know to click backwards three times? If anything, PoG is more cheery, if only at the start. As it starts getting further and further in its gets grimmer and grimmer, which is something I love about Banks' books.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2012 14:50
|
|
|
Flipswitch posted:My kindle doesn't? Not disputing what you've said but that's pretty weird.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2012 14:56
|
|
|
General Battuta posted:Player of Games is a much happier book, I would definitely recommend reading it - not just because it's a more enjoyable read, but because it'll help cheer up your perception of the whole Culture universe. At least until everything goes to hell in a handbasket, but yeah I guess it's an happy ending in a way. Anyway, definitely read the rest of the Culture books Krinkle, Consider Phlebas is the weakest of the lot (not counting State of the Art which isn't a novel anyway).
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2012 15:11
|
|
|
I think player of games is the most uplifting because of when the sc drone gives Gurgeh access to all the hidden media streams it psychs him up to completely annihilate the emperor its almost like a rocky film!
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2012 15:34
|
|
|
MeLKoR posted:At least until everything goes to hell in a handbasket, but yeah I guess it's an happy ending in a way. Player of Games definitely has a happy ending. Gurgeh grows and matures as a person, an evil empire is bought down, a drone is revealed as being totally awesome
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2012 16:26
|
|
|
Seaside Loafer posted:I think player of games is the most uplifting because of when the sc drone gives Gurgeh access to all the hidden media streams it psychs him up to completely annihilate the emperor its almost like a rocky film! Yeah the bit written from the Emperor's perspective is absolutely awesome, really grabs the attention and (despite the fact they're sat playing the game) gets the adrenaline flowing. I'm recently coming in to reading M Banks after adoring the straight fiction for a very long time. Really really enjoyed use of weapons and thought the section described by the spoilers above was brilliant.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2012 16:32
|
|
|
Gravitas Shortfall posted:Player of Games definitely has a happy ending. Definitely happy in the long run, I mean... probably. In the immediate future the Azadians are going to go through a civil war that's probably going to rip their empire apart so for the people that'll have to live it through things probably won't be all that happy. See also: Chelgrians; Iraq; etc.
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2012 15:41
|
|
|
Krinkle posted:I bought it on kindle, kindle auto-opens it to chapter one page one. I didn't know there was an epigram! How was I to know to click backwards three times? Always click back with a Kindle.
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2012 16:59
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 09:42 |
|
|
MeLKoR posted:At least until everything goes to hell in a handbasket, but yeah I guess it's an happy ending in a way. What... State of the Art is the most artistically relevant story \banks has written.
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2012 17:00
|
|