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Re: Matter ^^. The reason is it's fun to read about characters doing things, and not fun to read about autonomous suits doing the same things. We wouldn't care as much if it were just the suits. Also it lets Ferbin sacrifice himself in a pretty cool end for his character. I mean I feel you from a tactical perspective, but honestly 'endless proxy war of perfectly efficient machines' is pretty bland in comparison to characters striving and struggling, even if it doesn't make 100% in universe sense. And 'fun to read' is the main thing for a book to be.
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Jul 4, 2012 19:28
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Prolonged Priapism posted:Re: Matter ^^. The reason is it's fun to read about characters doing things, and not fun to read about autonomous suits doing the same things. We wouldn't care as much if it were just the suits. Also it lets Ferbin sacrifice himself in a pretty cool end for his character. I mean I feel you from a tactical perspective, but honestly 'endless proxy war of perfectly efficient machines' is pretty bland in comparison to characters striving and struggling, even if it doesn't make 100% in universe sense. And 'fun to read' is the main thing for a book to be. True, and normally I can let it go, but it struck me in this particular case because it was her last surviving brother's life she was casually and pointlessly letting be thrown away. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Jul 4, 2012 |
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Jul 4, 2012 19:54
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Alternate theory, Anaplian as a (nearly) fully autonomous Special Circumstances agent was already planning for the possibility that somebody unaugmented would need to die in order to convince the Iln weapon of the lies told to it by the Enabler device, and deliberately phrased the suggestion in terms of honor in order to guarantee that Ferbin and Holse would accompany her.
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Jul 4, 2012 20:56
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The more I think about it, this is a pretty general theme of the Culture books - Why have humans do anything, since it's trivial to build a perfect machine to do it instead? Especially if it's something dangerous, like being an SC agent? Part of the answer is that it'd be no fun at all to read about emotionless machines perfectly carrying out what would otherwise be exicting tasks - the longest that sort of thing can be sustained is something like the Culture terror weapon section in Look to Windward. It's basically millitary porn, and while it's cool to read about targeting algorthims and hypersenses for a few pages, reading an entire novel like that would be a slog. There's no character there. Nothing to relate to, just pleasing technobabble. So there's a meta justification for not having machines do everything - it just wouldn't be fun to read about. But Banks also makes an in-universe justification. The Culture isn't about pure utility. Nor does it decend in to pure hedonism. The Culture recognizes that beings need to feel useful. So people help build starships, even though that takes longer. And people and drones are SC agents even though a ship's avatar or Everything Dust could blend better, do more damage if needed, think faster/better, and are essentially invulnerable. Sure, people and drones die this way. But they're going to die anyway (unless they're an immortality fetishist), and this death has (self selected) meaning. That's what the Culture is after. Banks makes a point of saying that even purpose built warships are crewed - it makes them less reckless, less prone to needless self sacrifice, gives the crew something to be proud of, and gives the Mind something to care about other than how it is going to fight and die. So, going back to Matter I think Ferbin's death reinforces a huge theme in all the books. He chose to fight, and that choice was respected by everyone present. He knew he would probably die, but the Iln machine was trying to destroy his entire world, his God, and had already killed his brother. Not letting him fight when he wanted to and was able would be against the whole point of the Culture. People should be allowed to find their meaning, and Ferbin does in his sacrifice. This is also a big part of Consider Phlebas. They're all willing combatants. Sure, almost everyone dies and in the end it didn't mean much to the war as a whole, but would barring them from a fight they cared about have been better? I think Banks would say "no.
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Jul 4, 2012 21:10
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Are culture Orbitals open to the vacuum of space? They are giant rings, rotating, creating an artificial gravity due to centripetal acceleration, but ships can fly in through the side over the quartz wall dividing air from void and then they are in the "atmosphere" and then they can land, yes? There're no fields holding in the air? I don't care how fast you spin the drat thing, centripetal acceleration isn't enough. The air at ground level is moving at the right speed to "feel" one gravity but the air immediately above it sheers off and is moving slower, and the air above that even slower. The air at the top isn't moving at all and is flying out the hole over the wall of crystal or however it was explained in Consider Phelbas and then you have lost the entire dang atmosphere to the harsh laws of fluid dynamics. Even if you installed baffles in sections to force the upper atmosphere to spin it won't work. I have spent a lot of time thinking about this and I wish just once he had said "fields did it"
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Jul 5, 2012 07:19
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He did. Fields definitely hold the atmosphere in place on Orbitals. I'm pretty sure its mentioned in Consider Phlebas when Vavatch is described. There's probably passing references in the other books too. In Look to Windward the Hub can micromanage the weather, so I'm sure lots of fields are involved in controlling the climate on a Big O.
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Jul 5, 2012 09:10
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Lasting Damage posted:He did. Fields definitely hold the atmosphere in place on Orbitals. I'm pretty sure its mentioned in Consider Phlebas when Vavatch is described. There's probably passing references in the other books too. Yeah, in Player of Games, Banks mentions the Limiting Factor going through a 'tensor field' before passing over Chiark's retaining walls. Anyway, the Culture obviously doesn't have a problem with using fields to hold in an atmosphere- look at the exterior balconies on the GSV in Use of Weapons.
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Jul 5, 2012 09:23
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Orbitals themselves are held together entirely by fields (much like ships and basically anything other large Culture machine), so fields holding the atmosphere in isn't a stretch of the imagination.
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Jul 5, 2012 10:11
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Krinkle posted:Are culture Orbitals open to the vacuum of space? They are giant rings, rotating, creating an artificial gravity due to centripetal acceleration, but ships can fly in through the side over the quartz wall dividing air from void and then they are in the "atmosphere" and then they can land, yes? When Horza escapes from the GSV in Clear Air Turbulence (Consider Phlebas) by just basically lasering his way out there are some fairly good descriptions of the various field layers. I suppose to take Banks culture reality seriously you just have to assume complete mastery over 'fields' of any mind over a 1.0 
Seaside Loafer fucked around with this message at 10:26 on Jul 5, 2012 |
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Jul 5, 2012 10:21
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pseudorandom name posted:Orbitals themselves are held together entirely by fields (much like ships and basically anything other large Culture machine) Hell, at the start of its construction, an orbital is just two squares sitting in space on opposite sides of the hub, spinning around on an invisible forcefield tether. As they construct it they add more plates until it forms a full ring, but it gets inhabited well before the ring gets completed, back at the magical floating squares in space stage. I just discovered that Against a Dark Background has an online epilogue. I wish I'd known that when I first read it, it would have made what was a traditional Banks terrible ending much less infuriating. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 11:08 on Jul 5, 2012 |
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Jul 5, 2012 10:56
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MikeJF posted:I just discovered that Against a Dark Background has an online epilogue. I wish I'd known that when I first read it, it would have made things less infuriating. Could you link that please? I did a search for 'Against a Dark Background online epilogue' but im not seeing anything. I am a bit dopey though. e: ah never mind, found it http://www.i-dig.info/culture/aadbep.html not that it makes any sense, its been a real long time since I read Against a Dark Background.
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Jul 5, 2012 11:10
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The Affront are wearing thin for me as they've just murdered two helpless characters and each time have been like "pfffft was barely worth putting on my jackbooted octopus suit for this"
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Jul 11, 2012 01:43
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I think you may be taking this particular work of fiction a little too seriously. Too much time in d&d? Just enjoy it. He doesn't write books like that any more.
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Jul 11, 2012 02:16
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I'm not taking it personally I'm just saying they're not good ol' boys so much as assholes. It was funny when they were just being dicks at the dinner table but now they're casually murdering agoraphobes and hunting broken down droids for the sport of it and are also up to something sinister. I'm just getting up to the parts where I can see what people were saying earlier about them not being just a boisterous race of jokers. They genetically engineered their entire planet to be perpetually terrified because it makes the taste of the meat incredible, their women so that they would properly find sex painful and rapey at all times, and bats to be the fat clumsy balls in their jai-alai games, then Five-tides blinds the ball with his beak to make it interesting. So, not as cool as I originally thought. I'm also getting to the parts where I can see what people where saying about the plot of the book being lackluster as basically nothing has happened with respect to the titular object and it's all a bunch of maneuvering towards a purpose I can't see yet.
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Jul 11, 2012 02:30
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Yeah, that is definitely the desired effect. Its a bit like getting to like a coworker or some other acquaintance, only to discover later that they're profoundly racist. I think it also mirrors how some people with really repugnant attitudes will white wash their comments or behavior as being jokey or just a bit of messing around. As for the plot, it seems like Excession almost always doesn't meet the expectations of readers, for better or worse. I've come to really like the book after initially being disappointed, and a few rereads helped me catch all the details sprinkled through it.
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Jul 11, 2012 02:58
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I can't understand being disappointed by it. I think it's the perfect sci-fi novel.
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Jul 11, 2012 03:03
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It could have done with some more sympathetic human viewpoint characters. 
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Jul 11, 2012 03:15
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Why? For once sci-fi explored fairly complex, interesting, morally ambiguous characters whose bad decisions parts of you could relate to and sympathise with. I would say that most of us are capable of being cold in the face of kindness and that most of us have made some horrifically bad decisions that we've never come to terms with. It's just that the culture framework amplifies the results of this to a much larger scale. I don't want sci-fi to hold my hand, and I definitely don't want it populated by bloodthirsty comic book bad guys either (like Veppers in Surface Detail). Excession is kind of subtle in that its characters are actually adults with a spotted history. In a genre dominated by childish writers spouting immature worldviews, it really hits the spot for me. I re-read it every year and I always find my interest in the humanity on display outstripping my intrigue and excitement over the technology more and more. Considering his other work (a lot of which I love, don't get me wrong), I think this was a happy accident on his part.
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Jul 11, 2012 05:47
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Lasting Damage posted:Yeah, that is definitely the desired effect. Its a bit like getting to like a coworker or some other acquaintance, only to discover later that they're profoundly racist. I think it also mirrors how some people with really repugnant attitudes will white wash their comments or behavior as being jokey or just a bit of messing around. So you're the one who stole my first choice of names. (Lasting Damage is my CS handle too  )
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Jul 11, 2012 06:11
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I am OK posted:I can't understand being disappointed by it. I think it's the perfect sci-fi novel. I was initially. Again, I've come to really like the book. As in its one of my favorites along with Look to Windward and Use of Weapons. What I mean by expectations is that it really isn't about the Excession, the conspiracy, the war, or any of the grand scale scheming, but just Genar-Hofoen and Dajeil. I don't think most people are expecting that, or satisfied with it. Space Monster posted:So you're the one who stole my first choice of names. (Lasting Damage is my CS handle too high five, obscure sci fi reference buddy 
Lasting Damage fucked around with this message at 07:45 on Jul 11, 2012 |
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Jul 11, 2012 07:03
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I am OK posted:Why? For once sci-fi explored fairly complex, interesting, morally ambiguous characters whose bad decisions parts of you could relate to and sympathise with. I would say that most of us are capable of being cold in the face of kindness and that most of us have made some horrifically bad decisions that we've never come to terms with. It's just that the culture framework amplifies the results of this to a much larger scale. I agree with all your general feelings about genre writing, but I don't think Excession is the best showcase of Banks' talents in these areas, nor is it nearly the best science fiction novel to tackle these themes. It does have some great character work, though.
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Jul 11, 2012 07:36
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Lasting Damage posted:I was initially. Again, I've come to really like the book. As in its one of my favorites along with Look to Windward and Use of Weapons. What I mean by expectations is that it really isn't about the Excession, the conspiracy, the war, or any of the grand scale scheming, but just Genar-Hofoen and Dajeil. I don't think most people are expecting that, or satisfied with it. I don't know, most people seem to sum up the book with "I came for the Excession, I staid for the Minds". We get a wonderful insight into the inner life of the Minds and for em it really enriched the whole series.
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Jul 11, 2012 09:07
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I didn't mean to imply I wasn't enjoying the book. It's just that it's in a weird kind of Schrodinger's plot box, where there are either literally no stakes, or infinite stakes, and I don't get to open it any time soon. I like how all these minds, computers so large they exist largely in hyperspace, name themselves these weird little phrases. I like the huge conversations and the personalization of all the different names. Like it just cracks me up, the idea of this brain the size of a planet wanting to be taken seriously after naming itself the HMS wait til your father gets home. All the humans, however, could be named by rolling your hands all over the keyboard and adding vowels wherever it looks like they're needed. Krinkle fucked around with this message at 09:10 on Jul 11, 2012 |
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Jul 11, 2012 09:08
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Krinkle posted:I like how all these minds, computers so large they exist largely in hyperspace, name themselves these weird little phrases. I like the huge conversations and the personalization of all the different names. Like it just cracks me up, the idea of this brain the size of a planet wanting to be taken seriously after naming itself the HMS wait til your father gets home. Frankly, this is my big problem with the Culture. I really think entities of such astounding power should comport themselves with a little more gravitas.
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Jul 11, 2012 09:19
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Barry Foster posted:Frankly, this is my big problem with the Culture. I really think entities of such astounding power should comport themselves with a little more gravitas. Perfection. 
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Jul 11, 2012 10:33
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Barry Foster posted:Frankly, this is my big problem with the Culture. I really think entities of such astounding power should comport themselves with a little more gravitas. It would be quite easy to slide into a "god emperor" type of situation where the humans are little more than ants. Not that they aren't, but I kind of like the idea that these incredibly powered entities are above that sort of thing and just want to chill and interact with lesser creatures. Kind of like herding sapient cats and laughing at their antics.
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Jul 11, 2012 10:36
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Krinkle posted:All the humans, however, could be named by rolling your hands all over the keyboard and adding vowels wherever it looks like they're needed.
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Jul 11, 2012 11:52
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Krinkle posted:All the humans, however, could be named by rolling your hands all over the keyboard and adding vowels wherever it looks like they're needed. That's generally how I make up sci-fi/fantasy names. A culture name is [Solar System of Birth]-[Planet/Orbital of Birth] [Given Name] [Chosen Name] [Sirname (usually mother)] dam [House Name] Iain M. Banks is apparently 'Sun-Earther Iain El-Bonko Banks dam Queensferry', although we don't really have a 'house' in the culture sense so he used his town or whatever.
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Jul 11, 2012 12:05
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I imagine the names are weird as a reminder/reinforcer that this is an alien culture of an alien species, but goddamn does it get weird after awhile to be reading a sentence of standard English with a name like Sma in it.
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Jul 11, 2012 12:09
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I wonder how many Culture based usernames are on the forums. Aside from the ones on this page there's a Zero Gravitas and a Zakalwe at the very least.
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Jul 11, 2012 12:18
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:Perfection. Oh was that sentence composed of ship names? I didn't recognize any of them. Why do these minds keep saying meat. They're not talking to the meatfucker when they do it. Grey area is the meatfucker. Is it just like a sentient computer slur, like, poo poo! is for us?
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Jul 11, 2012 14:36
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Krinkle posted:Oh was that sentence composed of ship names? I didn't recognize any of them. You are probably joking, but.. Iain M Banks in a question session posted:...it was a scathing review of Culture ship-naming policy delivered by another Involved civilisation. They suggested that such enormously powerful and intellectually refined entities ought to have names with a little more gravitas, to reflect their near-god-like status; the immediate and sustained reaction of one of the Culture's ship manufacturies was to name all its subsequent vessels things like: Stood Far Back When The Gravitas Was Handed Out; Gravitas, What Gravitas?; Gravitas... Gravitas... No, Don't Help Me, I'll Get It In A Moment; Gravitas Free Zone; Low Gravitas Warning Signal, etc etc (including the Zen-like Absolutely No You-No-What). 
Gravitas Shortfall fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Jul 11, 2012 |
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Jul 11, 2012 15:45
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But the ships name themselves, Mr. Banks! 
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Jul 11, 2012 15:48
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I'm reading these books for the first time, and I've never heard anything the author has said about anything. I was jumping to a conclusion based on the reaction to that post. Wow what a weird unsatisfying ending. I stayed up all night because it felt like it was building towards something and then it just deflated and someone got a species reassignment surgery to help him with his living bat-ball jai-alai game. I found myself constantly flipping back looking for the typewriter font sections to see what mind said what to who and I'm still not clear on everything.
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Jul 11, 2012 16:04
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The grand reveal of that swarm of fighter craft didn't please you? The Very Fast Picket chase? The snowballing sense of urgency and panic? The confirmation at the end that the Excession led to something wonderful? Oh man. Don't worry about who said what. It's a conspiracy. Let it was over you and admire the picture from far away rather than trying to zoom in on detail.
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Jul 11, 2012 17:26
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Excession is also better on a re-read. You'll be able to sort out which Mind is which, and some scenes that appear confusing turn out to make sense in context.
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Jul 11, 2012 17:31
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General Battuta posted:But the ships name themselves, Mr. Banks! Yeah, exactly. The way I figured, it works better as it being one of the occasional fads that sweep through the Culture - in this case, intentionally trolling whichever stuck up Involved species said that (I'd thought it was the Homonda for some reason, but it looks like he doesn't specify). MeLKoR posted:It would be quite easy to slide into a "god emperor" type of situation where the humans are little more than ants. Not that they aren't, but I kind of like the idea that these incredibly powered entities are above that sort of thing and just want to chill and interact with lesser creatures. Kind of like herding sapient cats and laughing at their antics. I think the names are reflective of the kind of relativistic attitude most of the Minds take - when you're that godlike, you can be as interested in the lives of your sentient wards as you can be in a supernova. You don't have to focus on one or the other. They're also wise enough to recognise that existence shouldn't really be taken seriously a lot of the time.
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Jul 11, 2012 18:41
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:I wonder how many Culture based usernames are on the forums. Aside from the ones on this page there's a Zero Gravitas and a Zakalwe at the very least. I have no idea if WeaponGradeSadness is, but they should be. I too enjoyed Excession a lot more on a reread. I did like it the first time, but the second time it went to being one of my favourites. I can understand why some people dislike it, especially the ending. There are elements of a shaggy dog story to several Banks novels (both with and without the M). I tend to like endings like that, but know a lot of people don't.
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Jul 11, 2012 22:42
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Excession isn't one of my all-time favorite endings or anything, but on reflection I liked it more than the reveal in Use of Weapons.
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Jul 11, 2012 22:50
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General Battuta posted:But the ships name themselves, Mr. Banks! Based on a couple of other bits in the various books, it seems that their initial name is decided in discussion or with input from with their parent manufactory, presumably whilst the Mind is a child. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 00:51 on Jul 12, 2012 |
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Jul 12, 2012 00:49
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