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Ratios and Tendency posted:Segregation is a civil rights issue. In order to create this narrative effectively I think you would need to be able to point to real, concrete harms or instances of unequal treatment of people in civil unions as opposed to those that are married to actually have that narrative work. You know, water fountains and such. That issue is the adoption rights tied to marriage status issue. So there you go. I found your segregation water fountain for you.
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Jul 31, 2012 12:23
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Pigeon Shamus posted:Do you think that civil rights should be determined by direct democracy, though? That gay/lesbian/transgendered/bisexual people should be allowed to marry only if a referendum says they can? Because that's what NZF is saying. And that's a problem, because it means that NZF then believes that it's totally okay to trample on minority rights if the majority votes for those rights to be trampled. Eh, don't rights only exist because the majority vote for them? If you could get 50%+ NZders to vote for anti-whatever discrimination, the political process will not stop this. Rights exist in the context of majority opinions and expectations.
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Jul 31, 2012 12:37
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New Zealand First not voting is a Grade A cop out. Winston wouldn't vote in favour of gay marriage anyway because old people are terrified of Teh Gayz. I think John Key voting in favour will get a few more fence-sitting Nat MPs across the line, although I think the Nat Party caucus is significantly more socially liberal these days than it is given credit for and I think there will be a few surprise yes votes. Also I'm not sure how one makes fun of people who are religious while being a dues- paying member of NZ First, who are arguably more delusional.
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Jul 31, 2012 14:33
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Lemonus posted:In order to create this narrative effectively I think you would need to be able to point to real, concrete harms or instances of unequal treatment of people in civil unions as opposed to those that are married to actually have that narrative work. You know, water fountains and such. Okay, the fact that people with civil unions don't have their relationship formally recognised when they go overseas. Get in a car accident while on holiday? Sorry, you've got no visiting rights as you're not family and we don't recognise your quaint 'civil union' here. Married? Roll straight on through.
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Jul 31, 2012 14:36
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miss_chaos posted:Okay, the fact that people with civil unions don't have their relationship formally recognised when they go overseas. Get in a car accident while on holiday? Sorry, you've got no visiting rights as you're not family and we don't recognise your quaint 'civil union' here. Married? Roll straight on through. Yeah this is a legitimate concern, although with international matrimonial law I think its generally the case that if a country won't accept civil unions they also find problems with accepting foreign same-sex marriages. I think in terms of people who really want to spend time hammering NZ First on the abstaining view they could point to this and the thing with Adoption rights tied to marriage. Anyways as you noted I think the main thing now is getting fence-sitting National MP's over the line. I don't give them credit for being more socially liberal than they really are and I think if you want to talk about realpolitick like not scaring off the Greyz Im pretty sure the fact National's focus groups came back with a green light on this and Key is in favour has way more to do with the support for it than genuine social liberal bonafides in the caucus. I expect you will be hammering Chris Finlayson to vote yes? Pigeon Shamus posted:Pointing to Chris Finlayson and going "but he's gonna vote against it to and he's gay!" FYI the actual apparent issue is that he may be applying his Catholicism in the manner that he literally takes orders from the Pope instead of the New Zealand people. You know, a Papist? miss_chaos posted:Also I'm not sure how one makes fun of people who are religious while being a dues- paying member of NZ First, who are arguably more delusional. Hey, can you cut this poo poo out? ^_^. Like, besides the fact its rude its just not even witty and wrong. E: Anyways, NZ First doesn't collect "dues". Its a $5 sign up fee to a be a member, thats it. Lemonus fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Jul 31, 2012 |
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Jul 31, 2012 14:48
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The one quote from NZF that really got to me was this from Colin King "What my wife and I have enjoyed over 42 years, I don't think anybody else of the same sex could enjoy" (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10823697). What a miserable position to take. What sort of horrible person do you have to be to think that this is ok?
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Jul 31, 2012 22:17
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Lemonus posted:Im not sure if I expect many people in this forum to believe it, but direct democracy for instances like is legitimately/concretely part of the New Zealand First platform/fundamental principles i.e. number 15: " All policies not contained in the party manifesto, where no national emergency clearly exists, will first be referred to the electorate for a mandate." But what about your collations manifesto? Not speaking of this particular issue but in general. I've met a lot of incredibly stupid people of voting age in my years, and I expect to meet a lot more. I would hate to see direct democracy expanded.
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Jul 31, 2012 22:56
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In the local paper earlier this week (Greymouth Evening Star) They had the positions of the 3 MPs in our district on this. Damien O'Connor Labour electorate, is leaning against it, comes from a catholic dairy-farming family up near Westport, a bit disappointing to see him on that side of this issue as being a Labour supporter and he is our local MP I would have hoped he stood in favour (He voted against the civil union bill) Chris Auchinvole National list, leaning for but still undecided. I was surprised to see this as he is very much in the conservative christian mold. Although I think he is Anglican who have a bit more history of socially liberal stances than some of the other denominations. Other sources list him as a 'no' vote. Wasn't in Parliament for the Civil Union vote Kevin Hague Green list, very much in favour had his own bill in the ballot to legalise gay marriage. Also openly gay and probably will marry his partner of about 30 years. Where do your local MPs stand on this issue and is any one else thinking of contacting them to try to sway their support? As an aside I went looking online for the article but couldn't find it on their website (They only post 2-3 articles per day) but I did find this: http://greystar.co.nz/content/vapour-trails-conspiracy-debunked 
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Jul 31, 2012 23:25
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Smithersnz posted:The one quote from NZF that really got to me was this from Colin King "What my wife and I have enjoyed over 42 years, I don't think anybody else of the same sex could enjoy" (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10823697). Colin King is a National MP FYI. David Clark North D is confirmed yes so Im going to spend my time from now lobbying Michael Woodhouse. Lemonus fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Aug 1, 2012 |
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Aug 1, 2012 01:42
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Lemonus posted:Colin King is a National MP FYI. My bad. gently caress that guy anyway.
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Aug 1, 2012 02:30
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Lemonus posted:Anyways as you noted I think the main thing now is getting fence-sitting National MP's over the line. I don't give them credit for being more socially liberal than they really are and I think if you want to talk about realpolitick like not scaring off the Greyz Im pretty sure the fact National's focus groups came back with a green light on this and Key is in favour has way more to do with the support for it than genuine social liberal bonafides in the caucus. Key isn't an arch-conservative, it's pretty clear he's much more liberal than many other 'old school' National types - even if you look at the party just before he came leader. It's part of the reason why Labour has struggled to make a dent in him for six years now. The party has become much more liberal under his leadership and so is the Cabinet. Are their super conservative conservatives in the caucus still? Of course, but I'd say they are no longer the majority they once were. I don't think his position is a focus grouped triangulation. Many people have reconsidered their position on gay marriage - Obama did, but also society has changed. My own parents are from a small town where "traditional" values are considered important, but even they can't say that gay people shouldn't have the same rights anymore. Society has changed. Is there any evidence this has even been focused grouped? It's a conscience vote so MPs can vote however they want regardless of public opinion. A focus group decision would probably have very little influence on a moral issue like this one.
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Aug 1, 2012 07:29
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I know there are probably gently caress all of you in the Hutt, but seriously this accident poo poo is retarded. Motorway was closed due to a diesel tanker overturning and a car hitting a powerpole (the two are unrelated). Tranzmetro closed the lines and all bus services are cancelled (although the drivers won't tell you this and will continue collecting fares until they tell you to get off at Petone station and to catch a train) despite the roads being re-opened and trains being off. For all the websites, electronic bus schedules and text alerts no one knew/knows what the gently caress is going on. There was a TranzMetro woman at the station who could only parrot the text alerts half the platform was receiving. Apparently train services have now been re-established, starting from Upper Hutt; which means the train will be full by the time it gets halfway down the line with all the delayed passengers, and will go whizzing past the hordes at Petone who were dumped there without explanation. The only way to find information when I had to leave (just before seven) was Stuff, and that was typically vague. Nothing on the bus website, either of the City Councils nor Civil Defense. How are people meant to find this poo poo out?
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Aug 1, 2012 21:44
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mirthdefect posted:The only way to find information when I had to leave (just before seven) was Stuff, and that was typically vague. Nothing on the bus website, either of the City Councils nor Civil Defense. How are people meant to find this poo poo out? I bet Twitter is full of information being tweeted and re-tweeted by other frustrated commuters. This is about the best use case for Twitter. While official channels are slow to push out this sort of time-critical information Twitter is often one of the first places for such things to be known. I have seen ISP outages not mentioned on their official network-status pages but if you find the ISPs Twitter account you can find out what is going on.
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Aug 1, 2012 22:49
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miss_chaos posted:A focus group decision would probably have very little influence on a moral issue like this one. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10823687 quote:In deciding his stance on conscience votes, Key made no apology for reflecting what he considered to be the majority opinion in his Helensville electorate. Credit where credit is due, John Key is doing the right thing here. Now just get that handful of National MP's to do the right thing also. Lemonus fucked around with this message at 01:07 on Aug 2, 2012 |
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Aug 2, 2012 00:56
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Lemonus posted:
He's still being a loving shithead about it. He's not doing it because it's the right thing to do, he's doing it because it'll get him votes.
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Aug 2, 2012 02:53
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mirthdefect posted:
I heard mutterings about this on morning report. Tempted to shift to the hut just to enjoy track closures whenever the wind blows sea spray over the points. There really isn't excuse any more for vital transport infrastructure to collapse without advising the public. Pay a monkey minimum wage to send out updates on twitter - not exactly rocket science. Does WCC provide updates? Maybe they'd like to.
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Aug 2, 2012 02:54
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OLIVIAS WILDE RIDER posted:He's still being a loving shithead about it. I disagree, but I don't care how gay marriage gets passed as long as it gets passed. One vote yes is one vote closer.
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Aug 2, 2012 15:24
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miss_chaos posted:I don't care how gay marriage gets passed as long as it gets passed. One vote yes is one vote closer. We are all in agreement here on this point. Im presuming we are all young people here, this is a generational sticking point that none of us should engage in apologetics for. We are on the right side of history. I can see you are a National fan, but I won't accuse you of hackery if you stick to this point and get people to vote yes. I am affiliated with NZF for the economic policy and I can bear abstentions on the principle they are just following their policy and manifesto on this. Ill put myself here on record that if they turn against the bill and vote against because some possible "this law only comes into effect post-referendum" amendment fails then I am the gently caress out of there. In my view thats just as much as enforcing your views on the people voting against because of some problem with the process, for all they know it is a populist issue with popular support already. Not just that Id be the gently caress out of there though I think Ill take as much of it down with me. I might have more than one or two things to leak. So anyways, theres my stance. The real pressing issue then is convincing those National MP's to turn yes on this vote. Lemonus fucked around with this message at 00:54 on Aug 3, 2012 |
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Aug 3, 2012 00:50
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Edit: stupid question about a topic that's old
Lampsacus fucked around with this message at 01:42 on Aug 3, 2012 |
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Aug 3, 2012 01:27
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Lemonus posted:So anyways, theres my stance. The real pressing issue then is convincing those National MP's to turn yes on this vote. There are also a few Labour MPs who will likely vote against this as well, my local MP Damien O'Connor for one I think there are a couple of others as well. But I guess the chances of swinging the National undecided are probably much higher.
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Aug 3, 2012 02:44
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Voting against this bill is voting against the goodwill of our tourism industry. We are always concerned about people flying over to Australia right? Why not have them fly over here to spend big on celebrations, parties and honeymoons? Every MP's conscience should be with the people in economic distress in New Zealand and foremost be the voices of job creation (and indeed, increased tax revenue) in these distressed times. Or in a more positive form: Legalising same-sex marriage is a pro-growth and pro-job creation policy requiring zero government expenditure ^ This is a worthy part of the narrative that needs to be made, particularly to bash National MP's on the fence with. Lemonus fucked around with this message at 07:53 on Aug 3, 2012 |
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Aug 3, 2012 05:00
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Is there a date for the debate/vote yet?
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Aug 3, 2012 05:52
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OLIVIAS WILDE RIDER posted:He's still being a loving shithead about it. I hate the guy as much as anyone, but is there anything suggesting he's not doing it just because it's the right thing to do?
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Aug 3, 2012 15:08
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Law posted:I hate the guy as much as anyone, but is there anything suggesting he's not doing it just because it's the right thing to do? Agreed, politicians can be craven on a lot of things but I don't think this is one of them. People said the same about Obama when he endorsed it - he's just doing it for votes or whatever. I don't think so. I think there's still a large constituency within the National Party that is fundamentally against gay marriage, even if the PM is in favour. While I think the Nats are more liberal in their Parliamentary representation, it's probably ruffled feathers in the hardcore old-school part of the party. So maybe not as cut and dry politically as it may seem, which makes me think it's genuine.
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Aug 3, 2012 15:22
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Law posted:I hate the guy as much as anyone, but is there anything suggesting he's not doing it just because it's the right thing to do? He's a politician  Edit: but seriously - he's a politician
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Aug 3, 2012 16:18
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I think it's just that things have lined up. I don't think Key particularly cares since it isn't related to corporate welfare and they certainly haven't been pushing for it before the bill was drawn, but it polls well and helps him remain likeable which National relies on, and it also undercuts Labour so why not.
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Aug 3, 2012 16:21
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There are at least 13 separate Wikileaks documents which specifically touch on issue of Pharmaceuticals in the context of a free trade agreement with the USA leading right up into discussions on the TPPA before the end-date of the leaks. Its a little concerning watching the path from "NEW ZEALAND'S PHARMACEUTICAL MARKET: NO QUICK FIX" to "DRUG INDUSTRY SEES POSSIBLE SALVE TO ITS PAIN IN NEW ZEALAND" to "Trade Minister on TPP - The Hour Is Not Yet Here " to the present. The TPPA underway in a shroud of secrecy. LONG POST IS LONG (Here are some snapshots/an admittedly framed narrative of events): SUBJECT: NEW ZEALAND'S PHARMACEUTICAL MARKET: NO QUICK FIX 2004-12-15 01:08; 04WELLINGTON1037 "Several U.S. drug companies also hold out hope that a New Zealand-U.S. free-trade agreement could be a lever for improving their access to New Zealand's pharmaceutical market. " SUBJECT: NEW ZEALAND AIMING TO STEM SALE OF PRESCRIPTION DRUGS BACK TO U.S. 05WELLINGTON577 2005-07-29 01:50 (SBU) Summary: With selected medicines much cheaper in New Zealand than in the United States... SUBJECT: DRUG INDUSTRY SEES POSSIBLE SALVE TO ITS PAIN IN NEW ZEALAND 06WELLINGTON40 2006-01-13 05:15 "..most drug companies continue to believe that only the lure of a free-trade agreement between New Zealand and the United States would prompt the New Zealand government to make the changes the industry contends are needed to assure its long-term viability in the country. PRESSURING PHARMAC (Next paragraph)" SUBJECT: GNZ AIMS TO COOL EXPECTATIONS FOR U.S. FTA 06WELLINGTON230 2006-03-24 04:51 The New Zealand government would be hard-pressed to meet likely U.S. demands that it open the drug-purchasing system to greater competition and choice. That would be costly, and health care expenses already are the largest component of the New Zealand budget (ref A). SUBJECT: USTR TPP DISCUSSIONS IN NEW ZEALAND 08WELLINGTON430 2008-12-23 01:50 SUBJECT: Trade Minister on TPP - The Hour Is Not Yet Here 09WELLINGTON275 2009-09-18 02:49 SUBJECT: New Zealand Lead Negotiator Discusses Vision and Challenges for TPP 09WELLINGTON327 2009-12-21 06:21 SUBJECT: DAS Reed Engages on TPP 10WELLINGTON65 2010-02-19 07:28 "(SBU) When asked what the top local impediments will be to concluding an agreement... According to Sinclair, pharmaceuticals are also bound to be a contentious issue.
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Aug 5, 2012 13:45
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And in other matters, why has New World suddenly gone all 'Hipster/Indie' on us? I find it hard to believe that their last 'food as instruments' campaign wasn't a stunning success.
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Aug 6, 2012 05:45
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I'm sitting out on State Highway 5. Ash is falling. My last update was to stay indoors. Is this still the case?
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Aug 6, 2012 20:03
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Angry Moo Cow posted:I'm sitting out on State Highway 5. Ash is falling. If you are near Tongariro yeah. It's code red whatever that means.
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Aug 6, 2012 20:10
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Ratios and Tendency posted:It's code red whatever that means.
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Aug 6, 2012 21:09
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I'm gonna die in a volcanic erruption. Best way to die other than space death? I think so.
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Aug 6, 2012 22:22
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OLIVIAS WILDE RIDER posted:I'm gonna die in a volcanic erruption. Best way to die other than space death? I think so. Snusnu? Volcanic snusnu in space?
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Aug 6, 2012 23:17
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OLIVIAS WILDE RIDER posted:I'm gonna die in a volcanic erruption. Best way to die other than space death? I think so. Yeah. You'd probably be the first to go.
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Aug 6, 2012 23:50
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Angry Moo Cow posted:Yeah. You'd probably be the first to go. What's the furthest away anyone here is seeing ash? I'm in Palmy and seeing nothing.
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Aug 7, 2012 03:24
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Bushmaori posted:What's the furthest away anyone here is seeing ash? I'm in Palmy and seeing nothing.
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Aug 7, 2012 03:33
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Ratios and Tendency posted:If you are near Tongariro yeah. It's code red whatever that means. According to nz herald it's downgraded to code orange. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10825125 Also I knew that Peter Lechner guy when I was a kid, he had a star trek tricorder.
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Aug 7, 2012 04:57
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RIP OLIVIAS WILDE RIDER We hardly knew thee
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Aug 7, 2012 05:49
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And once again, Stuff show their commitment to top notch journalism: 
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Aug 7, 2012 09:04
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Vagabundo posted:RIP OLIVIAS WILDE RIDER Died the way he lived, skin boiled off by a pyroclastic flow (iOS doesn't know pyroclastic is a word, good work apple!) and encased in stone.
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Aug 7, 2012 10:15
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